[DTW] Bant Survival

[jeanbathez]

@ Waikiki : Atm i'am testing 1 Stoneforge Mystic,1 Jitte and 1 Sword of Fire and Ice in the main for merfolk...
But the iona package is still in at the moment...

[godryk]

I don't know, there are many tight games won on Iona. For example, Iona makes Zoo much easier for me. The package has proven itself in tournament for several months against many decks. It just increases the raw power of the deck and locks the game againt many opponents. Against decks with no access to countermagic is just awesome. It's just 2 slots that I find very useful against many decks but that won't be that useful to improve your Merfolk matchup IMO.

[Waikiki]

I feel iona does not make the zoo matchup. Its way too slow imo.

@jeanbathez, how on earth did u squeeze that in without lowering the blue count to a dangerous number?

[jeanbathez]

@jeanbathez, how on earth did u squeeze that in without lowering the blue count to a dangerous number?

Thats the problem, you hit the point :-)
I`am not sure if it works...

If you are interested i can pm you the decklist, because i want to test it this weekend on a tournament, because a lot of people are also reading in this forum..

[Eddy Wally]

I've always been an aggro-loam player, but because I grew bored with that deck I made a bant deck recently. I can't find loyal retainers anywhere, so I threw in the NO-PRO combo instead. Did anybody here test that set up? In your opinion, can it match the awesome supertech of the Iona-combo?

[kkoie]

I tried the Natural Order combo both maindeck and in the side along with the Iona combo for a bit, just to see what it was like. In the end I took it out. As a friend put it succinctly, "it's a win-more." I hardly ever needed it.

As for finding loyal retainers, check ebay, they are going for $110-140 each. I myself uber lucked out when I bought one in November for $40.

When you compare the two together, I think the iona-combo is a lot stronger in that it serves as a lock. Where as progenitus is a fast 2 turn clock. The only problem with progenitus in survival is that it's no faster than NO-Countertop. I think if I were to play NO combo, now that I tried it in survival, I'd rather play it in a countertop build.

[Waikiki]

Thats the problem, you hit the point :-)
I`am not sure if it works...

If you are interested i can pm you the decklist, because i want to test it this weekend on a tournament, an a lot of people are also reading in this forum..

Sure! id like to take a look.

[Valdez]

I've always been an aggro-loam player, but because I grew bored with that deck I made a bant deck recently. I can't find loyal retainers anywhere, so I threw in the NO-PRO combo instead. Did anybody here test that set up? In your opinion, can it match the awesome supertech of the Iona-combo?

That would be an entirely different deck, search for No Bant.

As for finding loyal retainers, check ebay, they are going for $110-140 each. I myself uber lucked out when I bought one in November for $40.

I bought them in November for ~16e incl. shipping to Europe.

[Kuma]

Guys, as of now im actually doubting the power of the iona/retainer package. Since imo the problem matchups are right now game 1: Merfolk and perhaps something else. Iona isn't that effective at all.

Did anybody else got the feeling that the games he won could just as simply be won by just outrunning them with survival advantage?

If not people please convince me im terribly wrong. I will try a new list without iona and see how it goes.

I feel iona does not make the zoo matchup. Its way too slow imo.

You're terribly wrong.

Iona may not do much for the Merfolk matchup, but it can still win you games. I've beaten Merfolk by playing a turn three Iona and then Survivaling for a Qasali Pridemage next turn to take out their Aether Vial. Postboard, I've won by resolving Iona and then playing a Llawan, Cephalid Empress. It may not be the strongest strategy against Merfolk, but it sure as hell works. Short of starting with our anti-Merfolk package in the main, game one against Merfolk is going to be unfavorable. After boarding in 1 Stoneforge Mystic, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, 2 Path to Exile, 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress, and sometimes Kira, Great Glass Spinner, I've found that games two and three are pretty favorable for us.

Sure, there are games I probably could have won through Survival advantage, but there are games I couldn't have won without Iona as well. It's totally worth two slots in the deck to be able to drop a nigh-unkillable 7/7 flying on turn three or four. I don't think there are two other cards we could add that would equal or surpass the raw power Loyal Retainers and Iona give us. If you've got an idea, I'm open to hearing it.

Sometimes Iona is too slow for the Zoo matchup. Sometimes you play her on white, or red if you're low on life, and gum up the ground with Tarmogoyfs and Rhox war monks so you can win the game. Running CounterTop is the best thing you can do against Zoo, and I haven't lost to Zoo in a tournament since I added CounterTop to my list. CounterTop also plays up Iona by letting you name red or green while protecting her from Path to Exile.

tl;dr --- Don't be a slave to Iona; Sometimes there are better plans. However, she'll win you games against every deck in the format.

I've always been an aggro-loam player, but because I grew bored with that deck I made a bant deck recently. I can't find loyal retainers anywhere, so I threw in the NO-PRO combo instead. Did anybody here test that set up? In your opinion, can it match the awesome supertech of the Iona-combo?

I didn't like it when I ran it, but the other Bant Survival player in my area swears by it. Running it does give you an extra 3-4 "I win" cards, and it will greatly help your CounterTop match, while giving you a small boost against aggro. I'm not running it because about 2/3 of the time I drew it, I didn't need it due to having a fantastic board position or an active Survival. NoPro is better in a slower CounterTop shell that can't go aggro as well as Bant Survival. It's not a bad choice, and it will certainly win you games, but I think we can do better.

[Esper3k]

I played a CB/Top build of this last week and did alright with it (went 3-0 in the swiss, then lost in the Top 4 to Lands).

Honestly, I didn't see CB that much, so it was hard for me to say how good it was - I did really like the Top though.

I do also want to try out a NO/Progenitus version of the deck (I really liked that build with NO Elf Survival). While it may seem like win-more, NO really is another way to just go "Oops, I win", especially if you can't get Survival online or your opponent has dealt with it.

[Remmidenny]

I proudly present a new Retainer target:

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 15

Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered.
When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one.
Flying, protection from colored spells, annihilator 6
When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.
15/15
Illus. Mark Tedin
#4/248
[source: Prerelease Promo]

As you can see it's last ability is not a replacement effect so we can respond to it with sacrificing Retainer for greater good.
I think Iona isn't necessary anymore.

[Jak]

I proudly present a new Retainer target:

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 15

Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered.
When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one.
Flying, protection from colored spells, annihilator 6
When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.
15/15
Illus. Mark Tedin
#4/248
[source: Prerelease Promo]

As you can see last ability is not a replacement effect so we can respond to it with sacrificing Retainer for greater good.
I think Iona isn't necessary anymore.

It's been talked about. I think the consensus is that it's worse. You need two creatures and an extra G to put this into play (or wait another turn to untap and get Squee back or something). This is turns slower than Iona and getting down something fast is what matters. I mad though becasue in the last few sets, I have been looking for something that can wipe a board of Merfolk/Goblins/Elves/Cats and this is too slow to do it.

[CorpT]

FYI: Bant Survival put two people in the top 4 of a 43 person Legacy event in Illinois yesterday with a total record of 11-1-1 plus 2 IDs (I went 4-0-2, my teammate went 4-1-1, we each won our Quarter, I won my semis, and we each scooped to our other teammate for points, he in the Semis, myself in the Finals - 3/4 of the top 4 was our team). We played 73/75 decks (just a few lands different) against a pretty diverse, but solid meta beating: Zoo, Merfolk, CounterTop, PaintersServant, Canadian Threshx2, Team Americax2 and a few others. We walked out with 25 Judge Foil Fetches between the 3 of us.

I definitely think that Iona/Retainers is worth it. For two card slots you get a way completely steal games. Turn 3 against Zoo was basically game over.

Kira was also amazing for us all day. Especially when combined with Sower. We did not play Vial, but were playing Sprite and it was very powerful. I would definitely play Sprite over Daze.

[Waikiki]

glad you share the same thoughts about spellstutter could you share lists and matchups ?

[spider900]

Today was the time for me to play my first tournament with Bant Survival.

Round 1: GR Random Deck

He doesn't seem to play all that often and has to read Ponder. I make short work of him with turn 4 or 5 Iona on Green Game 1, Game 2 I fly over his big beater with Goyfs.

1-0, 2-0.

Round 2: Mono R Goblins

Game 1 it looks good for me, but he gets a Siege-Gang Commander into play which I cannot handle. Turn 4 Iona on red wins Game 2 instantly, the same is true for Game 3 (turn 5). I boarded extra Paths, and Kira. I think I also sided in the 4th RWM.

2-0, 4-1.

Round 3: NO Bant

In both Games he has the nuts, while my draw are on average. In both Games it's everything about who has a Goyf on the table and he wins the fight both times, although I brought in PtE + Kira. Meh. I didn't saw a NO or Progenitus, so I didn't board Llawan.

2-1, 4-3.

Round 4: NLS

Game 1 he has enough time to build a perfect hand up, here or there I can counter something. The turn before he would be dead, he cast Silence. I look at my hand consisting of Squee, Spellstutter Sprite and Forest. I counter Silence with Sprite. He has to go the IGG route (because he's on 1 life), but I have Force + a blue card in my grave. I bring in 3 MM and 2 Teeg.
Game 2 I open a slow hand but with Teeg. I decide to keep and play Teeg. He tries Chain of Vapor, but I have Spellstutter Sprite. He tries Echoing Truth and it resolves, but it seems he did something wrong in is calculations. He has to pass his turn, so I can simply replay Teeg. He doesn't find an answer and I win.

3-1, 6-3.

Round 5: NO Bant

Game 1 we both have a bunch of Goyfs and StoPs. Like round 7 or so he goes for NO and I have no counter. I board in PtE, Llawan and Kira. I win Game 2 and 3 because I am able to bounce Progenitus. Llawan impressed me really; and I didn't even face Merfolk!

4-1, 8-4.

Round 6: GWBu Rock

Game 1 he has some Sinkhole + Wastelands, but I never fall under 2 lands while I had first turn Noble Hierarch. He has some Tombstalkers and Goyf on his side, but I have Survival online and therefore the better CA machine. I win.
Game 2 I mulligan to 4, keeping a hand of land and top, and 2 irrelevant cards. He goes Land, Petal, Hymn To Tourach, picking (as you can guess) my land and top. I draw land and Hierarch, have Path for his Goyf and a Goyf in my hand (really good draw). But he goes Wasteland for my land and StoP for my Hierarch.
Game 3 I can keep my 7 and have Land+Hierarch first turn. I get survival online and I win, because of Iona on white.

5-1, 10-5. 6th out of ±70 people.

The list I played:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tropical Island
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Force Of Will
3 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Survival Of The Fittest
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Spell Snare
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Ponder
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Iona, Shield Of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder
1 Rafiq Of The Many

3 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Path To Exile
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Rhox War Monk

I want to share my impressions on the deck I got today:

1) Spellstutter Sprite have been absolutely amazing for me the whole day. Countering Silence, StoP, Brainstorms and others is really cool. While your opponent loses a Spell, you cast a creature. It's a very elegant way of dealing with Spells. 3 is the right numer, I do not want to have less, but 4 seems to be too much imo.

2) Spell Snare did also do a very good job for me, countering mostly Goyfs. 3 feels like it's the right number.

3) Llawan has been awesome!

4) My SB was crappy, but I didn't have any cards for it, so i had to take what I could get before the tourney started. Maybe now, I would go like:

3 Path To Exile
3 Spell Pierce
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meddling Mage
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Genesis
1 Rhox War Monk

I'd like to have Genesis in the board, because I faced NO Bant two times and Goyf was countered a lot, so Genesis with recurring Goyfs or RWM would be cool. I does only take a single SB slot, so I'll give it a try. I'd also like to squeeze 2 K. Grip in the SB, but I didn't board them all day long, so maybe it isn't even necessary.

5) Concerning the split between (Survival/Top) of (3/1) instead of (4/0): I liked it. Really. Every time i drew the Top, I didn't wish it would have been a Survival. I'll keep this.

I hope I could help a little by sharing my first experience with the deck. Thanks Waikiki and Jak for inventing and testing the deck intesively, it's really awesome.

Cheers!

[CorpT]

glad you share the same thoughts about spellstutter could you share lists and matchups ?

4 Force of Will
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Path to Exile
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Vendillion Clique
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Trygon Predator
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra

Sideboard:
1 Faerie Macabre
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2 Spell Pierce

Round 1: BW Not so good deck
Playing Bob, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Tombstalker - Wasn't a great deck, but not terrible.
Game 1: He Bobs into a Tombstalker and it was over pretty quick after that.
Game 2: He Hymns me 3 times, and Sinkholes me. But I get a Survival active with a Squee getting Nobles. Once I stabilize, Monks start getting in there.

Round 2: Very good CounterTop player
Game 1: Crushes me with Turn 1 Top, Turn 2 Balance and me with nothing but 2 drops in hand that couldn't get through.
Game 2: He first turn Needles me and I Force it. I play a Survival and start the Iona engine. He is getting aggressive with Goyfs. I get a Rafiq in play to end the game that turn.
Game 3: He gets a first turn Needle again, but I don't have Survival, so I let it go. I proceed to play Goyfs and then Sower his Monk. Game is over quickly.

Round 3: Canadian Thresh
Game 1: He goes nuts with Nimble, Nimble, Goyf. I get Wastelanded and Stifled and die quickly.
Game 2: Land a Noble and Survival. Get Iona and finish him quickly.
Game 3: More Nobles, but no Survival. Go aggro with Monks and Goyfs. Mine outclass his and I force him to 2:1 himself to kill them. Not much of a fight.

Round 4: Zoo
Game 1: Third turn Iona. Game.
Game 2: I feel a little bad for him. He gets me to 2, but can't draw a burn spell. I get Survival, but he always has Pridemage, so I don't get much use out of them. Able to deal with all of his creatures and start swinging with Sprite in hand to stop burn. 25-2 and I come back on the back of the Aggro package.

Round 5-6: ID

Quarters:
Team America:
Game 1: Path his few creatures and get aggressive with Goyfs and Monks. Rafiq seals the deal.
Game 2: Sower his Tombstalker with a Kira in play, but tapped out. He Snuff Outs my Sower and Stifles the Counter Trigger. Great play I couldn't stop. I lose shortly thereafter.
Game 3: Wasn't much of a chance for him. I get Survival and start laying a lot of creatures. A few mistakes on my part here, but the deck beats him. Highlight of this match was letting him Ponder, then pitching Retainers for Squee for Sprite to counter the Brainstorm. Afterwards he said it was a pretty big counter. I had Kira in play, so there weren't a lot of things one card could do, but 3 could do some damage.

Semis:
Canadian Thresh I had already beaten.
Game 1: Beat him with aggro creatures and convince him to concede so we can go home. We had already split prize and were just playing for points. I just wanted to win so I could scoop to my teammate for points. He's really close to Qing on rating. He got me very, very low, but Mongeese do not like Monks. Once those come out, he has a lot of trouble.

Overall, I loved the deck. It's absolutely amazing. Rafiq and Sprite were all-stars several times. My teammate playing the same deck was able to swing for a lethal 8 with a flashed in Sprite and Rafiq. The flexibility is amazing and the ability to go very aggressive surprises a lot of people.

[Kuma]

There is not nearly enough discussion on the merits of running CounterTop in Bant Survival. This is all that's been said about it in 53 pages:

Sensei's Divining Top: Trying to run this does two things that I don't like: it lowers your blue count if you cut other cantrips or it lowers your creature count. It just ends up being a mana sink when the deck doesn't need one. I am not against running it in the SB alongside Counterbalance because that could be an effective board plan, but in the main deck, it is poor.

Counterbalance: Similar decks have run Counterbalance but it just makes Survival weaker. This deck is a Survival deck first and foremost and trying to do too much weakens that strategy to where you are running two weaker engines. As I said before, it could be decent in the SB to stop Loam, Burn, Combo, or Control etc.

I modified my Bant Survival deck last week to the following list and have been testing it out. Before I was having issues with some decks, like merfolk and my countertop matchup was having problems. But with the addition of tops and counterbalance, my match-up against some decks have improved. I know that countertop tends to not interact well with survival, but so far I have not had many mana issues. And tops have been a boon to the deck I think. I also noticed that in control match-ups, leading with counterbalance instead of survival helps in that it either baits their countermagic, or if they don't have a counter, helps protect my survival when I cast it the following turn.
I'm sure I will get verbally slapped for even trying tops and counterbalance.

I would not advise on running CB top.

It's easier to just not play CB. The deck gets clunky as hell and plays completely different, ie can't play either role (control or aggro) effectively.

Yesterday, I decided to try adding Counterbalance for my local Legacy tournament. I was dissatisfied with the Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, and Reanimator matchups, and CounterTop improves three out of the four... All the things people say about CounterTop: It's clunky, it's too mana intensive with Survival, it ruins your ability to go aggro, none of that was true for me last night. I'm not 100% sold on it yet, but it has an A+ so far. I'll keep trying it and see if anything changes.

CounterTop is too good to be dismissed so flippantly. I'll wager that most of the people who think it's a bad idea haven't tried it. In three tournaments since I added it, it has been winning me games left and right. I've missed the seven cards I cut for it exactly twice. There have been at least a half dozen games CounterTop has won by itself. It helps all of our tough matches except for Merfolk. Why aren't more people running this?

But Kuma, running Sensei's Divining Top hurts your blue count for Force of Will.

Sensei's Divining Top can be used to find blue cards. Counterbalance is blue. Survival can find blue cards. Despite a lower than usual blue count for a Legacy deck, I've never had problems finding blue cards before or after adding CounterTop.

Running CounterTop hurts the creature count, making it harder to get an active Survival.

This is true, but Sensei's Divining Top can mitigate this by finding creatures. In three tournaments, I've had problems finding a creature for Survival in one game. CounterTop has earned me back that one game many times over.

You can't expect to activate Survival every turn and effectively use CounterTop.

So?

Running CounterTop is about having options. Having either an active Survival or active CounterTop should win you the game. If you draw both, you can use whichever is worse in the matchup as countermagic/removal bait. Obviously you're not going to mess up a beautiful top three to Survival for a creature unless you have to. And if you need the creature, why is being able to get it a bad thing?

The way I see it you can run seven to eight enchantments that win you the game, or you can run four. Last time I checked, having multiple game changing cards in your hand isn't a bad thing.

Running CounterTop hurts your ability to play both the control and aggro roles effectively.

Are you serious? Running CounterTop hurts your ability to be a control deck?

CounterTop has hurt my ability to go aggro inasmuch as Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique, Eternal Witness, and Trygon Predator are aggro creatures. That is to say, not much.

This deck is a Survival deck first and foremost.

No, this deck is a deck designed to win games first and foremost. Either CounterTop helps it do this or it doesn't. I care about wins and losses, not "definitions."

It's easier not to run Counterbalance.

It would also be easier to cut Survivals and play Bant Aggro.

Running CounterTop makes the deck harder to play, but it makes the deck better too. Winning games is what's important. If you want an easy to play deck, go build Belcher.

[Waikiki]

In my opinion the deck is just stronger as a pure survival deck. I ask what does this make better then a normal counter top deck? It just seems like a worse counter top deck and a worse survival deck combined. Atm I only have trouble vs merfolk and dredge. Two decks counter balance has no place in fixing.

[Philipp2293]

@Kuma: What list would you suggest for trying countertop?

[Kuma]

In my opinion the deck is just stronger as a pure survival deck. I ask what does this make better then a normal counter top deck?

--- The ability to generate real card advantage with Survival of the Fittest

--- Having the potential to Demonic Tutor every turn for

--- You can shuffle your deck for

--- Iona, Shield of Emeria

--- More creatures

--- Silver bullets in the sideboard

--- Seven "I win" cards instead of four

It just seems like a worse counter top deck and a worse survival deck combined.

I know what it looks like, and for that very reason I resisted trying it. However, it works much better in practice.

Atm I only have trouble vs merfolk and dredge. Two decks counter balance has no place in fixing.

You have a great matchup against ANT and Reanimator while winning ~75% of the time against Zoo? That's what CounterTop does for me.

CounterTop helps against at least 2/3 of the format. What are your seven or eight weakest slots doing for you?

@Kuma: What list would you suggest for trying countertop?

Here's what I'm running:

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Meddling Mage
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

SB:

2 Faerie Macabre
2 Path to Exile
1 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
4 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Gilded Drake