After resolving Doomsday or Ad Nauseam they will Duress/Chant you and you'll find Mindbreak Trap to be awful.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Because we play protection. Mindbreak Trap won't accomplish anything against a Chant. Same is true against Duress. Especially after AdN one is very likely to have one.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
So I got bored and threw Saito's list together and I opened with the following...
Underground Sea
Flooded Strand
Mystical Tutor
Ponder
Infernal Tutor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Cabal Ritual
What would you do against an unkown opponent Game 1 on the play??? on the draw???
Do you chance the nuts on turn 2 by Mystical Tutoring for Dark Rit or do you play it conservative and go for ponder? Do you Ponswe on your next turn when you can have the fetch land in play?
A conservative Ponder with that hand would not be on the first turn. It would be on the 2nd turn, once you have Strand and Sea in play, so you can tap Sea to Ponder and save the option to shuffle chaff away.
I would play Strand and pass. It keeps my options open.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
I'd play the Ponder turn 1. The hand can win on turn 2 anyway. Ponder can either find protection or the ritual and you can win turn 3 protected with a very high probability.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
Exactly, even against Reanimator, it can win (or at least be able to buy enough to to setup for a win) through Iona. Against combo they usually board in Blazing Archon, if you hit that ... they lose. Otherwise u kill Iona or have a big Shroud creature in play.Originally Posted by emidln
But Telemin Performance is really there for Lands! variants and the combo mirror, instead of making goblin tokens u just win!
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Simian Spirit Guide > Rite of Flame by a mile, it's a counter vs. Daze and it's an initial mana source instead of a ritual, so your hand is more likely to be able to cast Dark Ritual, resolve a discard spell off the dark, cast a SSG and then be able to Burning Wish/LED into Diminishing Returns (or other business) and cave your opponent's skull in before they even get a turn - I don't think I could ever play Burning Wish in a Storm Deck with out SSG, it's that frickin' good.
Grapeshot: 3rd Win Condition + Hate Bear Removal.
Telemin Performance: GG vs. other Storm Combo
Balance of Power: Awesome, awesome card on turn 1 where you get to Draw 7 and your opponent doesn't get to redraw so you're guaranteed to be able to play your new 7 with out being disrupted by Force of Will - it should be in every Burning Wish SB IMO.
Perish: Removes Gaddock Teeg while removing the rest of Zoo's board
Firespout: Removes Meddling Mage while removing the rest of UW's board
On the play :
Flooded Srand --> fetch Island --> Ponder
MY buddy and I have been testing ANT for a while. I've been playing ANT, and he's been using Counter top Pro BANT.
Anyway, it seems like he's always one step ahead of ANT. Is there any certain strategy or techinique to go about beating countertop with ANT?
I've been boarding like this, using Saito's GP Madrid List:
-1 Cabal Ritual
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Infernal Tutor
-2 Sensei's Top
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Ad Nauseam
+4 Dark Confidant
+3 Reverant Silence
+1 Thoughtseize
Is this correct?
Thanks
I'd rather drop the Ponders than the SDTs because the later get better the longer the game lasts.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
I've been following the thread, one question I had for those that run Dark Confidants in SB. In what matchups do you bring them in for? So far it seems the mirror, and CB/TOP or blue decks in general. Is this correct?
I finished 2nd in an online single elimination tournament on Magic-League today. There were 48 players. I took no notes, so everything is written as I remember it.
List can be found here: http://magic-league.com/deck/60288/l...Tendrils101171
Round 1: Uwg Counterbalance
I win the roll.
g1:
My hand is: Brainstorm, Ponder, Fetch, Fetch, Land, IGG, Tendrils. I keep. I fetch basic Island and play ponder seeing more lands and a LED. My opponent fetches Tropical Island and plays Top. This makes me sad since my hand isn't exactly fast enough to deal with CB. He drops CB and we play draw go for 2 turns until he starts beating me with 2 3/4 Goyfs. He passes the turn while I am at 3 and he has 1 mana untapped. I play Chant and he has to tap his Top to counter it. I'm pretty happy with that since he only has 1 card in hand and my hand is full of stuff that doesn't have cmc=1. I play some LEDs, some Petals and a Cabal Ritual into IGG into Tendrils for 18. Here I was just lucky he got somewhat flooded and never saw a FoW.
SB: -1 AdN, -1 Cabal, -3 Chrome Mox, -1 Rushing River, -1 Mystical Tutor, -1 Ponder, +4 Dark Confidant, +1 Tropical, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Chain of Vapor (should definitely have boarded in Deathmark here to kill a potential hatebear. If not for that, it can atleast slay an angry Goyf. I take up some blue cards because they tend to clog up in your hand in this matchup, especially with an active Confidant)
g2: He gets turn 3 Top + CB online but he leaves 1 mana untapped and doesn't use his top, so I Krosan Grip it as soon as I make my 3rd land drop. His blind flip reveals a land. On his turn he drops another CB and passes. He plays Trinket Mage and drops a Crypt. On his next turn he drops another Trinket Mage and a Relic. He has 1 card in hand and 1 land untapped. I play Chant and again he spins Top to counter it. He now has 2 cards in hand, and I'm almost sure he has FoW + blue card, but if I let him untap one more time it will be almost impossible to win anyway so I take the gamble and play out my hand of LEDs and Petals into Infernal into AdN with some mana floating. Turns out he didn't have anything.
Round 2: Enchantress
He wins the roll.
g1:
Turn 1 he plays Forest -> Utopia Sprawl. Yay. He does some irrelevant stuff while I set up the kill. I play Infernal + crack LED, at which point he decides to make up his own Magic rules and tells me I can't do that. He calls a judge, but changes his mind. I business him with AdN.
SB: -3 Duress, -2 Cabal, -1 Island, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Tropical, +2 Krosan Grip (I just wanted to be sure that I couldn't lose to multiple hateful enchantments)
I keep Chants in because of potential Chants/Mindbreak Traps from him.
g2:
I Chant him in his upkeep once and on his next turn he draws a ton of cards with his engine. I Chant him again on my turn and kill him. After the game he shows me he had Rule of Law in hand. I don't show him the 3 bounce spells I have in hand.
Round 3: Monoblack Aggro
He wins the roll.
g1:
He plays turn 1 Thoughtseize off a Swamp and takes my Mystical. My lands get Sinkholed and my hand gets destroyed by Thoughtseizes and Hymns, but I'm eventually able to ramp into an AdN that I kill him with.
SB: -1 AdN, -4 Chant, -3 Duress, +4 Dark Confidant, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Tropical Island, +1 Hurlkyl's Recall (Here I wanted Confidant so that I would be able to fight a an attrition war with him)
g2:
My hand has potential for a fast AdN, but he discards my key spells and starts beating me with Nantuko Shade and Dark Confidant. His Confidant gets him too many business spells, and I eventually roll over to his barrage of Extirpates and Seizes.
SB: -4 Dark Confidant, +1 AdN, +3 Duress
He takes a while to sideboard so I'm positive he boarded all his creature removal in again after he has seen my whole deck with Extirpate.
g3:
He has to mull to 5 while I keep. I Duress him turn 1 and see Extirpate, Wasteland, Swamp, Dark Rit, Negator. I take Extirpate. His first play is Dark Rit into Phyrexian Negator, but when he tries to attack with it next turn I bounce it using Vapor. On his 3rd turn end step I mystical for AdN, switch Top and cast the AdN with threshed Cabal. I was a bit worried he would have drawn another Extirpate to remove my 7th graveyard card, but he tapped out for Confidant so there was no danger. I untap and kill.
Round 4: RB Goblins
He wins the roll.
g1:
He immediately fetches Badlands with Mire and passes, so I put him on Goblins. I play fetch and pass. He taps out for Piledriver on turn 2. I spend my 2nd turn IGG-looping him to death.
SB: -3 Duress, -1 Cabal Ritual, +1 Plains, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Hurlkyl's Recall (I keep in Chants because they are decent against their alpha-striking ability, and there are more and more Goblin decks that have 4 random Mindbreak Traps in their SB..)
g2:
I Keep a hand full of blue cantrips, tutors and a Rushing River. I'm a bit worried it won't be fast enough at this point. He opens with land + Vial. I Ponder and see an LED and more bounce. He quickly establishes a nasty board of double Piledriver and Warchief. I have to use my bounce on the Warchief to avoid taking infinite damage. I draw Tendrils so that my hand consists of Petals, LEDs, rituals, Tendrils and Rushing River. I can almost Tendrils him out by bouncing my own artifact mana, but I am 1 storm short of doing that so I have to pass the turn and bounce his Warchief yet again to avoid taking lethal. He beats me to 2 and I draw a blank so I just have to play out my hand, gain some life and hope to draw Infernal Tutor or IGG with my 2 LEDs waiting to be cracked. I don't.
g3:
I mystical for AdN, Chant him and he thinks for a second (probably staring at a useless Mindbreak Trap). I cast the AdN with threshed Cabal. He dies in short order.
Round 5: *bye*
Finals: Merfolk
He wins the roll.
g1:
He opens with Island -> Cursecatcher. My hand has a nice assortment of protection, acceleration, lands and cantrips. I play land, Petal and Ponder which resolves I see Chrome Mox, fetch and Chant. Bleh. I take the Chant and Attempt to shuffle the chaff away next turn but he Stifles. He now has 2 Cursecatchers that quickly become 2/2's. I draw some more chaff, my fetches get Stifled and my duals get wasted. Eventually the turn arrives where I have to go for it or die, but my ressources are so depleted that I just scoop.
At this point I'm hating myself for playing crappy Confidants and not Xantid Swarm, without them it will surely be an uphill battle.
SB: -1 Rushing River, -2 Chrome Mox, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Plains, +1 Tropical Island (here I was thinking about boarding in Confidants. They have served me well against Merfolk before, but they are definitely very sketchy in this matchup, so I end up ruling against it since they make a resolved AdN considerably worse, and one of the best way to beat Merfolk is to power out a fast AdN with a deck that only has low CMC stuff.)
g2:
I have the nuts: 2x Dark Rit, LED, Infernal, fetch and 2 cantrips. I contemplate digging for protection, but I decide to just take the gamble and not open myself up to a world of hate (Spell Pierces, Cursecatcher + Daze or just a Wasteland on my only mana source). I play Infernal into AdN with B floating. He doesn't have the FoW
and I quickly find a lethal Tendrils.
g3:
I keep a decent hand with AdN, Island, Chant, fetch and some cantrips/tutors. He opens up with Island followed by Vial. I play a Ponder which gets Dazed. He soon gets double Cursecatcher, and my fetch gets Stifled. I attempt to kill a Cursecatcher with a Ponder, but he just has another Daze. He puts an Adept into play and starts beating for 4 each turn while I am still stuck on a lone Island. My Brainstorm meets his 3rd Daze of the game and things are now looking grim. My final attempt is an AdN with 0 mana floating at 7 life. It resolves. I would need to flip a bunch of Petals, LEDs and an Infernal Tutor to stay in the game, but instead I flip Cabal Rit, Mystical Tutor, SDT and other useless stuff that ends up killing me.
I regret choosing to play Bob over Xantid. I thought there would be a lot of Counterbalance decks in the way, but I only faced 1, and in that game he didn't even matter. Also, somehow Merfolk defeated Goblins in the seminfinals.. What the hell. I would have prefered to play against green dudes. :( The only reason I'm not playing Doomsday is because I'm not comfortable enough with it yet, it would just be a hindrance for me as of now. It's on my to do list, though.
Last edited by Rune; 04-02-2010 at 10:28 AM.
I'm playing this list:
Main:
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Infernal Contract
+1 Duress
+1 Meditate
Side:
-1 Duress
-1 Shattering Spree
-1 Perish
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Pulverize
+1 Chain of Vapor
Duress vs Thoughtseize is a metagame thing. I don't see as many spellstutter sprites to want the 4th Thoughtseize in game one. I believe Meditate is better than Infernal Contract as Contract forces you to have double black source + double dark rit or dark rit + led. I often find myself wanting to use SSG mana to cast my Meditate, which I can do off spare black mana and lands + SSG. Other than the REB from Goblins/Tempo Thresh (where we can just go -1 meditate, +1 infernal contract postboard), I don't see a good reason for including Contract main. I don't know that I'd want to go dark rit + draw4 game one as much as I might want to eot a Meditate against control (which is a pretty good backup plan if you can't endstep AdN, IMO). Further, it seems like the double half-life might be relevant in affecting your ability to effect a turn two Doomsday win vs something with burn in it (like Zoo) where you could otherwise win at a relatively "safe" 6-8 life.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I think I'm indifferent regarding Meditate vs Infernal Contract, Meditate is definitely better "mid-combo" but Infernal Contract seems to be a better Mystical Tutor target and they're equally good top decks.
Yeah, the Duress vs Thought Seize configuration is a question of Spellstutter/Meddling Mages in your metagame, I think you can split them either way (altho' I do have issues with Burning Wish -> Thought Seize where the life matters vs aggro-control sometimes)
I think Shattering Spree is better than Pulverize with SSGs, I have issues fetching /r lands for Pulverize vs. decks that are playing Trinisphere + Chalice of the Void and Wastelands.
Also, I want a 2nd IGG in the SB to SB in when I'm feeling lazy vs. aggro.
Let me know how it works out for you.
I love this list. It feels much more fluid than the 4/5 color builds I've been playing with chant/silence. The SSG's really power it up too.
On a side note, with Urza's Saga being released for MTGO, Ill-Gotten Gains is now available and the deck is more or less complete on MTGO (No Pulverize). The first ever Legacy Premier Event on MTGO is this Sunday, and I'm very tempted to play this deck. Depending on the adoption of Legacy by the MTGO community, and the price of blue staples (Force is 80 each and Daze are 10 each), I'm hoping that we will start seeing a Zoo heavy field in online legacy. This might create a space for storm combo to thrive. Wishful thinking, but I'm very excited about playing NLS on MTGO for prizes on a weely basis :)
A question about this list is that I do not see any answer to enchantments in side and neither in base, I suppose to play burning becuase is a way to get answers...
Also, at first I always have been detractor of playing just 1 A.N in main and this was somnething that slowly was introducing in the archetypes, and I again want to ask if not playing IGG, TENDRILS and just 1 AdNausem and 4 burning can make the deck even more stable on its numbers, seeing the list that almost win the GP, a deck with duress/thoutghseize and burning can be the way, I personally seeing the 14/15 number of lands as mana base and beeing 3 the different color it makes the burning and No IGG NO TENDRILS in base way seems to be the good approach helped from side with REB and vexing shuser as perfect fix for c.b /vendilion as this deck can solve.
Concerning the Doomsday lists that don't include Ill-Gotten Gains: I set up IGG piles quite often; does this imply I'm using it as a crutch or doing it wrong in some other way?
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
I wouldn't say that it's a crutch, I just don't find I need it very often and it felt like I was drawing it fairly often vs blue decks and flipping it often off Ad Nauseam. IGG, in my experience, is mostly used in two situations: the SDT/BS + 2 cards pile and the various pass the turn piles. The SDT+BS pile is sorta replaceable with one of these two that don't use IGG:
SDT's pile:
Brainstorm
LED
LED
Tendrils
BLANK
Brainstorm's pile
LED
LED
Ponder/Brainstorm
Ponder/Brainstorm
Tendrils
From Doomsday on, the SDT pile will get you 6 spells and the Brainstorm pile will get you 7 spells. These are usually enough to pull out a win with a few spells played beforehand (accel, maybe a duress or tutor).
The other piles, the pass the turn piles for 2-3 mana are harder to simulate. You can do a pass the turn pile using 2 cards + 1-of BS/Wish/LED for 1UR next turn, but it isn't quite as useful as the 1 card pile that costs UU or 1UB that you get if you have an IGG in your deck. With only one Doomsday in the deck, I'm not sure how often the pile actually comes up necessary.
The other uses for IGG, such as inside a Meditate/SDT stack (i.e. Meditate, Rit, Rit, IGG, Tendrils) for 2UB produces 9 spells from Doomsday onwards but you get 8 spells for the basic 2U if you're using Meditate, Petal, LED, LED, Burning Wish) anyway, which is generally "good enough". If that isn't good enough, for one mana more, the 3UR double Wish pass the turn pile is adaptable into a win this turn pile and generates 11 storm by itself (you get extra spells from wishing into IGG then wishing into Tendrils). You also have access to a non-graveyard pile in Meditate, SDT, LED, LED, Tendrils that will get you 9 spells for 4U.
Other uses for IGG are usually corner-cases where you are trying to inflate storm count by casting Doomsday twice. You can do similar things already if you wished for Doomsday to begin with, or you could add 1R to your (already high mana requirements to pull off DD->IGG->DD) to just Wish into IGG (letting you better abuse LED anyway). I think cheeseburger made a few posts on storm boards about the various double Doomsday piles (either through a second DD or via IGG) in the Doomsday Piles thread if this sort of thing comes up often for you.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I was having a fair amount of trouble pulling out turn two or three kills without IGG in the SDT and Brainstorm piles you mentioned just because of lack of storm, which is why I went back to just getting them with IGG. I also pass the turn Doomsday fairly often when I have Mystical and Ritual but don't want to play Ad Nauseam with no mana floating and no land drop.
Also, with SSG over Rite of Flame, how often is that relevant to Ad Nauseam? Finding a spare Volcanic or Badlands to cast Rite is sometimes frustrating, but having such low CMC for Ad Nauseam has been good for me.
Is there any sort of plan against a resolved Counterbalance or is the idea just to make them have it two games running? (I get that Duress and Seize are good against it, but Brainstorm etc.)
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
The plan is to force them to have it in two games and not have us able to Duress something else (should they hide it with Brainstorm) and just Ad Nauseam around it (something I've been observing in games against bant due to our deck not actually having that many ones or twos that need casting if you took a Force/Spell Pierce and they just cast a Counterbalance (at that point, you can safely assume they don't have another hard counter so you go down to like 16ish spells, some of which might already be in play (SDTs, especially with spirit guides to power them out after a turn 1 Duress), and if they do, good for them go to the next game or accept that loss)).
I've played about 35 matches within about 2 cards of this list against a couple friends and a lot of randoms on MWS. While you can't tell a lot about the matchups of the deck, you can start to get a feel for how it performs (at least you can with combo decks) once it gets past the opponents defenses (which, on MWS is pretty quick most of the time). I've noticed that the Ad Nauseams are significantly better than they are with standard UBw ANT or the UBwg DDANT builds. I'm not quite sure how they compare to the 2 SSG builds of NLS, but I feel that the Ad Nauseams are safer at medium life totals than NLS was with Rite of Flame. The Ad Nauseams are still worse than TES's (that deck has all of our initial mana (-2 SSG, +2 Mox compared to us) and an extra 4 Rituals), but the advantages that NLS+SSG and TES have vs the rest of the Ad Nauseam decks is startling. 10 initial mana and 5 non-conditional finishers makes it easy to stop sooner than other ANT builds.
The Telemin Performance, Balance of Power, and Perish slots in BW's list could likely be changed to better addressed a resolved Counterbalance by including Wipe Away. Wipe Away isn't the best plan, but it's probably better than no plan at all. I'm not sure that I'd want more than 1-2 Wipe Away since I'm already siding in a Deathmark and a Thoughtseize/Duress against Counterbalance.
After thinking about Balance of Power and never wishing for it in 35 matches, I've come to the conclusion that I need to play against more blue before a final judgement. In my limited testing, I played against roughly 50% blue decks and never found myself wishing for it. Everytime I could Wish+cast it, I would have had an extra mana + SDT in play so I just found Doomsday instead. It would seem to be good if you knew your opponent had EEs, but even then I question whether it's better than simplying going for DReturns already a land up (maybe with some spare artifacts) and, since DReturns is one less, the ability to cast something like Duress/Thoughtseize, SDT, or a Brainstorm/Mystical (depending on what you float or how much. In my mind, if my Wish->Bomb is going to resolve against blue on turn 1-2, I might as well have some extra mana and try to screw them out of whatever hand they felt was good enough to keep without Force of Will, especially as I'll probably to get either SDT or Duress them before passing back. If you're not playing against a blue deck, DReturns is probably better in game one (assuming you can't just kill them with Wish->IGG), although giving your opponent more chances to draw Mindbreak Trap/Orim's Chance is probably not the best idea postboard.
I had a really cool sequence where I was able to Firespout the board of Merfolk through double lord with SSG paying for Daze, but I'm also wondering about that slot. 3 damage was better there, but in the matchups I actually want a sweeper for (Goblins and Zoo), Pyroclasm is a mana cheaper (and thus more easily cast under Wasteland/Port or the turn you play Wish) and still kills everything I need it to kill (specifically any combination of Teeg/Canonist/Pridemage from Zoo).
I've never cast Telemin Performance. I played once against 43lands and played Wish->Infernal Tutor->Ad Nauseam in game one and killed him with Doomsday around Chalice @ 0 in game two. The storm mirror I duressed my opponent turn one in both games and then lost turn two (game one I saw LED, LED, Dark Rit, Petal, Petal, Infernal Tutor, Mystical Tutor and he topdecked a Ponder after I took Infernal Tutor, game two I saw Ad Nauseam + mana to play it and he topdecked Ill-Gotten Gains...). I played vs reanimator but never had the mana to wish into it in a situation where I wanted it. The game I drew a Burning Wish he had Entombed Iona + Mystical for Exhume'd in response to Thoughtseize which left him unable to race ETW.
I guess if you feel the need to make an 80/20 matchup 82/18, Telemin Performance is fine. Against storm, Sadistic Sacrement is probably better (and it's fine vs Reanimator too). I think there's probably a better card to have against Reanimator than Telemin Performance since that's what it comes to to being for.
I've addressed cutting Tendrils either a page back or a page before that. It's also been address in the TES thread. The reasons why you shouldn't are the same for both decks.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
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