[DTB] Vial Goblins

[junkdiver]

Hey guys,

Against zoo how and what do you bring in? Is thorn of amethyst worth the slots?

Has anyone actually tested boartusk leige and found him to be good in that matchup?

I have suggested chalice at 1 to stop all their removal, but no one seemed to like that idea... Still a bad idea?

Thanks!

[FoulQ]

Hey guys,

Against zoo how and what do you bring in? Is thorn of amethyst worth the slots?

Has anyone actually tested boartusk leige and found him to be good in that matchup?

I have suggested chalice at 1 to stop all their removal, but no one seemed to like that idea... Still a bad idea?

Thanks!

I'll tell you my opinion. I'm running RB, 4 perish, 4 thorn, 4 relic, 2 earwig squad, 1 chieftain as my sideboard. I bring in the 4 perishes and the chieftain for -1 weirding, -2 instigator, -1 SGC (I run 3). In monored I do a similar thing but with pyrokinesis instead of perish (yes, if you don't have specific zoo hate like perish, pyrokinesis is the best for this).

I have tested boartusk liege in the matchup. He was better when people were still running pyroclasm and engineered plagues in their sideboards. Not as good anymore. Still, +1/+1 can have a pretty dramatic effect on the game, and he dodges most of their removal. He is definitely good against zoo, trust me, but maybe not worth the SB space in the current meta. I think a good player who doesn't post in this thread anymore (GreenOne I think?) used to like boartusk liege. But I can't remember.

I think chalice at 1 is still bad. The only non-combo decks I like it against are burn, and tempo threshold if you don't have 4 other nongoblins like relic or perish on the play and if you opponent isn't expecting it (they won't be). It is too slow. The problem is always stuff like t1 nacatl, t2 pridemage, t3 removal spells, not the 1cc stuff after turn 3. A 4of with no filtering like brainstorm/top is not going to reliably come on turn two, and on the draw it's even more atrocious. Yes, I have tested this. I think chalice is terribad against zoo.

[junkdiver]

I'll tell you my opinion. I'm running RB, 4 perish, 4 thorn, 4 relic, 2 earwig squad, 1 chieftain as my sideboard. I bring in the 4 perishes and the chieftain for -1 weirding, -2 instigator, -1 SGC (I run 3). In monored I do a similar thing but with pyrokinesis instead of perish (yes, if you don't have specific zoo hate like perish, pyrokinesis is the best for this).

I have tested boartusk liege in the matchup. He was better when people were still running pyroclasm and engineered plagues in their sideboards. Not as good anymore. Still, +1/+1 can have a pretty dramatic effect on the game, and he dodges most of their removal. He is definitely good against zoo, trust me, but maybe not worth the SB space in the current meta. I think a good player who doesn't post in this thread anymore (GreenOne I think?) used to like boartusk liege. But I can't remember.

I think chalice at 1 is still bad. The only non-combo decks I like it against are burn, and tempo threshold if you don't have 4 other nongoblins like relic or perish on the play and if you opponent isn't expecting it (they won't be). It is too slow. The problem is always stuff like t1 nacatl, t2 pridemage, t3 removal spells, not the 1cc stuff after turn 3. A 4of with no filtering like brainstorm/top is not going to reliably come on turn two, and on the draw it's even more atrocious. Yes, I have tested this. I think chalice is terribad against zoo.

Ok cool, that makes sense. Thanks for the quick, full reply! I honestly have never played against zoo so I couldn't know really if chalice or thorn would be worth it, I am just really thinking about main decking goblins and I know there is some minimal zoo in my meta. I will be playing RB, so hopefully perish will help the matchup be not so unfavorable.

Thanks again!

EDIT: Also how do you feel like your matchup is against dredge with your list?

[ScatmanX]

I played and won agains't Zoo this weekend in a champ.
G1 he starts just to fast, with Nacatl + pridemage + Relicary. I drop to 8, with Vial, 4 lands (2 uncracked fetches) and matron I guess. I stall and stall, but he eventually PoP's me for the win.
G2 I just run him over. 1st turn Vial, 2nd turn 2 lackeys, 3rd turn matron for Stingscourer, Vial Sting to remove blocker. Hit, drop SGC. He didnt had Fallout. Perish next turn preety much sealed the deal.
G2 was funny. I kept a 7 hand of 2 Wastes, Knesis, Perish, SGC, and 2 Matron I guess.
He starts with fetch, Taiga, Lavamancer. I draw and waste. He plays Plains, and pass. I draw Vial! play and pass. He fetches for Forest, and cast Pridemage. I Knesis his both dudes. I then manage to stall a lot, whith Matron for Stingscourer, Wort returning them, etc. In the end I just manage to topdeck better (read Perish) and win.

I played the list that won the 5k, Rb version, with -1 Gempalm, +1 Wort.
Side I changed completly:
2 Boartusk Liege ( Very, very good against zoo. Has a dissinergy with Perish, but you can play around it)
4 Perish
3 Knesis
1 Tinkerer
2 Needle
3 Faerie Macabre

I think this list has a quite good MU against Zoo, because with have shitloads of removals post sb (3 Gempalm, 1 Stingscourer, 3 Weirdings, 4 Perish, 3 Knesis)

[Jayzonious]

May I ask what you take out to put in 7 Non-Goblin cards? (4x Perish, 3x Pyrokinesis)

[kinda]

May I ask what you take out to put in 7 Non-Goblin cards? (4x Perish, 3x Pyrokinesis)

Vial and goblins.

[Avatara]

With mono red I board in:

2/3 x Boartusk Liege (almost always a must 2 for 1)
2 x Anarchy (Hits Lynx, Knight and Pridemage)
2 x Relic of Progenitus (hits Goyf, Knight and Lavamancer)

Amount for each card may vary depending on play/draw.

I think key to winning this match-up is stalling and turning the game around by forcing smart 2 for 1s.

[Jayzonious]

Vial and goblins.

I was looking to have that Sideboard question answered with some reasoning behind it.

[FoulQ]

EDIT: Also how do you feel like your matchup is against dredge with your list?

Dredge is a interesting deck to me, because of this...IF there is gy hate in your sideboard, then your chances against the deck are much more based on player skill than your actual deck. Basically, this skill involves two things,
1)Knowledge of Dredge.....from being a standard player in a legacy event and this random combo killing you to dredge being your primary deck and goblins is just a meta choice, and,
2) Knowledge of your deck's relationship with Dredge.....knowing the relationships between your cards and dredges cards, because every matchup is slightly different for dredge opponent based on their deck (not so much for them).

Dredge players always seem to be very confident in their goblins matchup. If their deck is working, it is basically impossible to win g1 and difficult to win g2/g3. Thankfully, dredge does have consistency issues fairly often, and we don't. This also shows player skill is much more important than deck choice when facing against dredge...just points to that, all I'm saying.

Extirpate is the worst hate, because we have many guys that can die to remove bridges, and keeping a B open all the time can be difficult. Leyline and Planar are one method of attack, and then the artifact haters are the other. And ravenous trap obviously pwns all but is narrow. I prefer the artifact haters (relic/crypt) because of their versatility in a lot of other matchups (for example, bringing in leyline against canadian is really lame...but relic turns me on)

I'm not really very intimate with dredge. I know the basic stuff like everyone, but that won't cut it. This deck is so unique that I'd actually probably ask the dredge players in their forum, because they are the ones who are going to understand the relationship between dredge and goblins better than the goblins player will.

One card I've missed in my builds against dredge is Wort. If the late game comes around, the dredge player will often feel they have inevitability if we can't effectively remove their bridges, so they can stall in the early game and then explode mid game. However, a well-placed Wort will throw off their plans very bad. Only the best dredge players will be able to sense a game-winning Wort on the prowl.

I would just try to think out of the box while you are testing the matchup. Look for very alternative paths of victory instead of conventional means we are used to, because most decks in legacy are boring tempo decks and dredge is not. That is very important. If I were trying to improve the dredge matchup more I'd probably go with finding a method that works for you to think more outside the box.

[kinda]

I was looking to have that Sideboard question answered with some reasoning behind it.

Well I'll answer it this way...what is vial good at...and what's goblins overarching strategy against zoo?

[bakofried]

You take out Vial? What's the reasoning on that? I suppose in Black splash, but in mono-R, untapped Vial at 2 means fun with Scourger.

[kinda]

You take out Vial? What's the reasoning on that? I suppose in Black splash, but in mono-R, untapped Vial at 2 means fun with Scourger.

He asked about the black splash specifically...but yes vial can (and should in g1 regardless of splash) be used defensively. There's a reason merfolk doesn't run their ringleader equivalent.

[ScatmanX]

May I ask what you take out to put in 7 Non-Goblin cards? (4x Perish, 3x Pyrokinesis)

I took out 4 Piledrivers (they kind of suck against zoo), 1 or 2 Ringleaders, 1 or 2 Chieftains.

[Nelis]

Extirpate is the worst hate, because we have many guys that can die to remove bridges, and keeping a B open all the time can be difficult. Leyline and Planar are one method of attack, and then the artifact haters are the other. And ravenous trap obviously pwns all but is narrow. I prefer the artifact haters (relic/crypt) because of their versatility in a lot of other matchups (for example, bringing in leyline against canadian is really lame...but relic turns me on)

In general en especially vs dredge (Cabal Therapy) I more and more prefer a mix of graveyard removal (in any deck I play). It's simply harder to hate. I usually run 1 Crypt, 2 Relics (if removing my own graveyard isn't an issue) and 1 Ravenous Trap .

[kinda]

I took out 4 Piledrivers (they kind of suck against zoo), 1 or 2 Ringleaders, 1 or 2 Chieftains.

Well ringleader and chieftain are two of your best cards against zoo...piledriver is understandable. Against zoo you take the control route and try to smother them in ca...you will not out aggro them...they have enough removal to take care of key threats...like chieftain...

[Hyped]

What does CA stand for?

I would take instigator out against zoo first, as it is too slow to slip past blockers (imo)

[Malchar]

card advantage
you shouldn't take out vial though, it allows you to continue to develop your field while you use your land to destroy their manabase i.e. wasteland and port.

[junkdiver]

Dredge is a interesting deck to me, because of this...IF there is gy hate in your sideboard, then your chances against the deck are much more based on player skill than your actual deck. Basically, this skill involves two things,
1)Knowledge of Dredge.....from being a standard player in a legacy event and this random combo killing you to dredge being your primary deck and goblins is just a meta choice, and,
2) Knowledge of your deck's relationship with Dredge.....knowing the relationships between your cards and dredges cards, because every matchup is slightly different for dredge opponent based on their deck (not so much for them).

Dredge players always seem to be very confident in their goblins matchup. If their deck is working, it is basically impossible to win g1 and difficult to win g2/g3. Thankfully, dredge does have consistency issues fairly often, and we don't. This also shows player skill is much more important than deck choice when facing against dredge...just points to that, all I'm saying.

Extirpate is the worst hate, because we have many guys that can die to remove bridges, and keeping a B open all the time can be difficult. Leyline and Planar are one method of attack, and then the artifact haters are the other. And ravenous trap obviously pwns all but is narrow. I prefer the artifact haters (relic/crypt) because of their versatility in a lot of other matchups (for example, bringing in leyline against canadian is really lame...but relic turns me on)

I'm not really very intimate with dredge. I know the basic stuff like everyone, but that won't cut it. This deck is so unique that I'd actually probably ask the dredge players in their forum, because they are the ones who are going to understand the relationship between dredge and goblins better than the goblins player will.

One card I've missed in my builds against dredge is Wort. If the late game comes around, the dredge player will often feel they have inevitability if we can't effectively remove their bridges, so they can stall in the early game and then explode mid game. However, a well-placed Wort will throw off their plans very bad. Only the best dredge players will be able to sense a game-winning Wort on the prowl.

I would just try to think out of the box while you are testing the matchup. Look for very alternative paths of victory instead of conventional means we are used to, because most decks in legacy are boring tempo decks and dredge is not. That is very important. If I were trying to improve the dredge matchup more I'd probably go with finding a method that works for you to think more outside the box.

Thanks for the responses foul Q it is much appreciated! My main deck is dredge, I just have never played against Gobs. Generally aggro is pretty easy unless their d00ds have sacrifice effects like Mogg fanatic, which seriously cut down on zombie production. Otherwise it can be pretty good. I will say that leyline is much worse to see than artifact hate. Ancient grudge makes artifact hate not that big a deal, you really can play around that. Leyline is a beast though. Also a side note, my friend who plays thresh says he rarely wins when his opponent starts with a leyline in play. Just my thoughts, and of course thresh has a lot of different builds (I think he is standard canadian) so I am not sure if this is always true.

Can you explain how you would use Wort against dredge? What can you recur that is so nasty? I am sorry if this is obvious I have not played many games with Gobs so I don't know.

I am finally getting some badlands, and if I don't like instigator eventually I will get some ports, and hopefully put some of your advise to good use. Thanks, the info against both Zoo and Dredge is appreciated!

[kinda]

card advantage
you shouldn't take out vial though, it allows you to continue to develop your field while you use your land to destroy their manabase i.e. wasteland and port.

A normal Rb goblins build runs 30 goblins md (+22 land, 4 weirding, 4 vial)...now if you take out 7 goblins for 4 perish/3 pyrokinesis (personally I don't like pyrokinesis due to this problem)...you only have 23 goblin creatures...that's not enough...it is for merfolk but they don't run ringleader/lackey. Also, zoo only needs 2 land to function and over half the time you won't even get vial in your opener.

[from Cairo]

I think taking out 4 Piledriver and maybe a Ringleader too since the number of Goblins is decreasing it's losing some potency anyway is reasonable. With 5 slots one can bring in 3-4 Perish and 1-2 Pyrokenesis, which seems fine. I don't think cutting Vials or Chieftains for Pyrokenesis is a worthwhile move, you're already going to have a ton of removal in 4 Weirding, 3-4 Perish, 1-2 Gempalm and 1-2 Kenesis. Vials really push you ahead in the mid-late game which is generally the game plan if you're playing the control role against Zoo. Chieftains another solid threat, maintains potency as a top deck, and can sometimes catch openings for large swings in the early-mid game if Zoo is being the aggressor.