I'ver toyed a bit around with this tentacle-porn-monster and I have to dmit, that he is clunky as hell, but it didn't matter much most of the times.
Btw. I've used him a few times in the mirror to save my Squee from Marcabre.
In the end I think that Iona might be the better choice, but I'll make some testing to be sure.
Wow, I never even thought about that! That makes Maze even better than it already is! However, are you sure that this really works? I mean, is a creature which dealt damage already still considered "attacking"? And if so, when would be the exact point to use Maze then? Would be great if you could explain this a little more detailed! Thanks!Originally Posted by conboy31
creatures are conciderd attacking until end of combat, afaik.
So you should be able to activate the maze after damage resolves, because removing them from combat is the last action and each player gets priority before.511. End of Combat Step
511.1. First, all “at end of combat” abilities trigger and go on the stack. (See rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”)
511.2. Second, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.
511.3. As soon as the end of combat step ends, all creatures and planeswalkers (including those that are phased out) are removed from combat. After the end of combat step ends, the combat phase is over and the postcombat main phase begins (see rule 505).
And yes it's a nice tech to get pseudo vigilance :D
As a 43 land player (kinda) I know them Maze tricks :p
It is commonly used in that deck to give Vigilance, to attack with a Bunch of lands into a big Goyf without losing a land or to untap a Factory and pump the other. So if you play with Maze you can of course apply these tricks here, too, attacking with Knight and also using it to fetch could be very useful.
On the Iona vs. Eldrazi dude thingy: I go with Iona. I think the advantages of Iona combined outclass the monstrosity.
The most important reason for me is the speed. Not only is Iona always a full turn faster, which is already a huge factor by itself, against decks that if they win they also win through a 15/15 blocker it is even 2 turns faster (you have to give them one turn in which you could have casted Iona and give them another turn to attack). Those decks are for example Dredge, Combo Elves and Enchantress.
The second reason is the vulnerability of the big monster. Like already pointed out it is bad against Sower of Temptation, Oblivion Ring and Shriekmaw. But especially against Landstill/Pox or other random White / Black control Iona is the best card because she prevents Wrath and Humility (Damnation/Pox/Edicts/Innocent Blood) while the Eldrazi does neither. Also if your opponent keeps you from attacking (Ghostly Prisons + Tabernacle effects, Ensnaring Bridge or Cryptic Command) Iona is much better.
And last but not least there is the general problem of needing an additional creature. This can be especially problematic against blue decks when you played creatures as bait to force Survival through or against Aggro when you needed to play creatures to stop the assault.
Totally agree with Tao! Iona cannot be replaced in this slot. It's too constraining to have Retainers in play before discarding The Monster. And for me is not event better on battlefield. Sure it's big, it's sexy, it rocks to have a 15/15 in play but i prefer 100 times to have an angel like Iona, if you look at the meta game you'll see that Iona shut off so many deck, and mostly any random deck.
Well I bet, that Iona gets owned by Sower and Shriekmaw too, as it is common to name white against Bant, Rock, BGW Sur (as long as they haven't SotF in Play) etc.Like already pointed out it is bad against Sower of Temptation, Oblivion Ring and Shriekmaw
I haven't seen LS and Pox on big Tourneys for ages on the first tables.But especially against Landstill/Pox or other random White / Black control
If you were able to resolve the "combo" youve got SotF anyway, sou you can use Pridemage to destroy any of those Artifacts/Enchantments.Also if your opponent keeps you from attacking (Ghostly Prisons + Tabernacle effects, Ensnaring Bridge or Cryptic Command) Iona is much better.
You would search for Finks in those situations anyway, to stabilize the board.And last but not least there is the general problem of needing an additional creature. This can be especially problematic against blue decks when you played creatures as bait to force Survival through or against Aggro when you needed to play creatures to stop the assault.
But as I already admitted the main downside of elmo is that he's clunky as hell.
I keep winning with this deck and love it still. I am wondering what it's bad matches are? I don't seem to run into one ever. Looking over the list, I think I could beat it playing Tendrils, but after boarding it would be tricky with the two hate bears. No one plays Tendrils here besides myself so I haven't had the pleasure.
Goblins seems quite close as they can go really fast sometimes. Only had to play against it once and if it had not been for a play mistake on his side I would have lost it. It was that close.
Landstill might suck, but I never see that deck played anymore.
That's about all I can think of.
Apart from ANT I have yet to face a MU where I would state that it is clearly negative (current record 16-2-2 in tournaments).
On another topic: I tried the Mystic Package Tao suggested in the last local tournament, and it seemed to lead to the "danger of cool things". I may have to test it again, for my own playstyle the more straight forward approach is more appropriate.
Yeah, probably Stoneforge Mystic does not work as good as I hoped it would. It is awesome in that Ugw-deck, but I couldn't find a version so far that is both consistent and fast enough. Vial is either insane or bad and that is not what this deck wants. Still, I am quite sure the Mystic will find its way into the DTB forum in some way.
The bad matchups for GW are first and foremost ANT (and also Solidarity, which is even worse). Fortunately Dream Halls is not that bad (still 40-60) because Pridemage counters the Dream Halls Combo and an active Survival stops them from playing Show and Tell. If they still play it, just get Iona and stop them from doing anything, Iona will also outrace Progenitus with the help of Finks and / or Swords or double Exalted should they put that into play.
Landstill is not bad, unless they play some updated tuned version they won't be able to deal with Iona so Survival just reads "I win". But if someone knows about the Meta he won't touch Landstill so they probably won't have a solution. GW also can apply a lot of sustainable pressure, has Pridemages for their Stuff, might sneak a win with Wastelands and has a good curve from 1-3 so Explosives won't kill you. I would say the matchup is about 50-50 which is as good as it gets for a GW deck against Landstill. Also if you have 2 Elspeth in the MD or SB the matchup gets even better.
Goblins is not easy, also around 50-50 overall, depending on their build. The more Warren Weirdings they play, the worse the matchups gets, but in G1 GW is certainly ahead. Unless they connect with Lackey or you have a bad draw Mother of Runes, Goyf, Finks and KotR are too fast too strong and Jitte or Survival for Iona on Red will finish the job. For G2 and G3 PtE is not very good (though you still bring it in) whereas they will have 3 nasty options - Perish, Relic of Progenitus and Pyrokinesis. They cant board 10 cards but siding in 5-6 good cards will certainly ake the matchup a bit worse.
I have not played against Solidarity with GW survival, but I think I would much rather play it than get paired up against Ant.
Partially because it is slower and mono blue (iona and mother + hate bears). Also, a non fatal brain freeze, if that happened for some reason, means a KotR on the table is fatal. Have you played this match out a few times?
Boarding, I would probably go -4 finks, +1 teeg, +1 cannonist, +1 runed halo, +1 choke.
Depending on who goes first, the matchup against AggroLoam varies from fairly even to bad, imo. Devastating Dreams is almost game over if well timed. Also, Loam has different ways to get rid of Iona which makes it harder to name a color to benefit the most.
43Lands isnīt that good either, as is Enchantress and Stax (although not THAT bad).
Aside from that, the "only" deck to beat which is a really bad matchup remains ANT. Anything else should be even or clearly in our favor.
I've playtested a lot against Lands, and it doesn't seem bad, a long as you can resolve SotF into Iona naming green and destroy their Mazes/Chasm usnig Knight + Wasteland.
Enchantress and Stax seemd quite positive to me with tons of basics and Pridemages + Grips + Genesis + Gaddok.
Aggro Loam is a bitch to play against.
btw. my actual Sb:
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Spore Frog
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Path to Exile
Hi, I followed this thread for a while now and wanted to know what you think about the inclusion of a tutor package?
First of all it'll help us drop Canonist as soon as turn 2 against combo as well as finding Survival or our own combo in form of Grindstone/Painter's Servant.
4 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [MM] Plains
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [ST] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 [REB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [SHD] Aethersworn Canonist
1 [SHM] Painter's Servant
1 [TE] Grindstone
2 [MR] Elightened Tutor
Good ideas:
- Enlightend Tutor
Bad ideas:
- 8 Windswept Heath
- only 3 KotR
- only 2 Pridemages
- no Witness
- Painter + Grindstone (Iona + Painter = Hardlock and even this is waste of slots)
If you fear combo, you should simply stop playing this deck, cuz it won't ever have a good Combo MU.
MD? Really? I think it's fine in the SB, I bring it in vs some MUs where I would be fine to grab a fast Survival or where I need to get my Hatepieces fast.
Agreed on both the Knights and the Pridemages, the Knights outgrow Goyfs easily after a few turns.
Disagree on the Witness, cut her a while back, never missed her.
Also agreed on the combo issue.
Currently I consider to move from 4 Kitchen Finks to 2 Finks and 2 Scryb Rangers, cause Zoo is non existent in my meta und the Rangers are good in the same MUs where I like my Finks, plus their untap effect is probably having a target all the time. Thougths?
Of course it should've been 4x Wooded Foothills. Iona + Painter is an added bonus. I mainly thought about Painter/Grindstone to win on the spot against stalemates or just an oops I win against players who don't expect it. Just wanted to know your thoughts if it could work.
@St3B:
There are a lot if Gimmicks that you can add to the deck. Some of them are dead or almost dead when you draw into them (Squee, Iona, Loyal Retainers, Painter's Servant, Grindstone), some (Eternal Witness, Scryb Ranger) are slightly worse than the the cards that you would like to play 4 of (Qasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary).
So you have to ask yourself: which Gimmick wins you more games by tutoring for it that you would lose otherwise than you would win, but instead lose by drawing into it instead of a better creature?
In the case of Squee and the Iona/Retainers Combo it is pretty safe to say that those win you enough games to justify playing them. The Painter/Grindstone Combo however will almost certainly lose you more games by drawing a dead Combo piece than win you games that you wouldn't be able to win with Survival + Iona + Squee on their own.
Also, if you want to maindeck an Anti Combo Card take Gaddock Teeg instead of Ethersworn Canonist. Teeg stops nearly all Combo Decks just as well as the Canonist, but additionally he is very good against Dredge (Dread Return), Natural Order, Humility, Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives and Planeswalkers. Also, everything that Philipp and Valdez said : )
@Philipp/Valdez:
Metatuning is always ok. I don't think it is wrong to reduce Kitchen Finks to 2 and the Scryb Rangers certainly sound interesting. I never tested them but undeniably they have synergy with nearly every card in the deck (Exalted, Tap Effects) and 2 other useful abilities. With the Witness / E Tutor I am not sure. Even though it might sound wrong, I am convinced that it is probably personal preference, playstyle and expected Metagame that gives the edge there because the possible choices are very close to each other and the advantages hard to calculate.
SotF is by far the best card, you can draw in almost every MU, especially since my metagame is full of Pridemages and Bant Survivals, you simply want that SotF asap and as many as possible.
Witness returns SotF and StP most of the times vs. flying critters.
I've also tested Mystics, more Jittes and other stuff, but i've allways returned to 2 ET MD.
I've tested Quirion Rangers as a 2of for a while and cut him again, cuz was only good, when you had some nuts (Knight, Mother, SotF) on the board, I would rather play more bombs.
Has anyone tested Aven Mindcensor? My meta is full of bants (natural orders, and countertop versions) and some other survival decks. Zoo is less played now, so I am thinking in cutting some finks for mindcensor if it proofs to be a good choice. I don't have time to test it now and if somebody have experience with it would be good to hear. Also, I never played gaddock teeg maindeck but in this kind of meta I think it would be a good choice too.
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