I have playing a new take on this at Magic-League since yesterday. Today I played around 30-35 matches, during all day long and with the last list unchanged, and I need to say, I'm really impressed with it. It's a straight UW list, I dropped Ajani and the old Jaces in order to fit the new Jace the Hype-Worthy, and man, he's RIDICULOUSLY BAH-ROKEN paired with shufflers and counter backup. It isn't without a reason the pros and "pros" are going nuts with this card in their articles. When you get an untap with him on the table, you simply don't lose anymore! Dude, this card's ridiculous, put it in a list of your own and try it by themselves. My current UW list looks like:
// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ZEN] Island (3)
3 [ZEN] Plains (1)
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [R] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [TE] Wasteland
// Spells
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [10E] Wrath of God
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [M10] Harm's Way
2 [M10] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [WWK] Dispel
SB: 4 [WWK] Kor Firewalker
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
And how are you going with WWK available? I'm fully convinced that set is the breath of fresh air this deck was asking for a long time!
Tapping lands and watching the sky falling since 1995.
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FeFe Team - Fame, girls and Mox Diamonds
AHHHHHHH MULHEK!!!!
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Elen Síla Lúmenn Ommentielvo!
Not to toot my own horn or anything but I definetly think this thread and the Punishing Gifts thread could learn benefit from bouncing around differnt options together. I have tested both of these decks extensively and they play a relatively similar game actually under the surface.
One thing I have noted about Legacy at the moment is how unprepared the meta game is for Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows. Those cards can decimate other decks. They provide unparalled consistency. Unless your opponent has Counterbalance and Top active those two cards will always get there.
Why play Harm's Way over Path to Exile?Originally Posted by SilverGreen
I'm guessing because it can directly save your planeswalkers from any sort of trouble.
Doesn't Path to Exile do the same thing with the exception of being a better card becuase it gets rid of the threat? Not every creature in the format has a power of 2 and burn is a minimal issue when you play countermagic.
His countersuite won't counter much burn. Outside of FoW, Snare won't hit Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning/Lava Spike/etc. and Pierce is only 50/50 effective by the time you've actually dropped a planeswalker (turn 4-5).
I personally wouldn't play Harm's Way in a deck, but I suspect that's the reason behind it's maindeck inclusion.
Where's the forbid? Forbid and CoW is your strongest late game defense. And are the Firewalkers really enough to shore up the zoo/gobbo game? I'm having a hard time imagining they are absolutely better then BFT. Sure, it can gain you some life, and maybe kill some creatures, but it cannot stop a T1 lackey and sometimes the life saved from a P2P might be more than gained with a Firewalker. I personally play 4 helix and an ajani along with factories, along with the staples and still the aggro MUs are tough so I'm just having a hard time imaging this deck beating aggro. Though perhaps you just have an odd meta, must be a lot of GY strategies with all you GY hate.
Where are the factories?
Paths are bad here, plain and simple. Only Zoo profitably makes use of it, and that's for a very specific reason, that doesn't apply to a control deck (in a format where you have StP available, at least). Harm's Ways are not StPs 5-6, they play a completely different role. They were included late and are doing fine, counters on Jace are translated into card advantage, as soon you'll realize. It also answers Lackeys and Bolts, for whom's worried about them.
Ajani and all Red complement were soon put away, with new Jace there's too much 4CC slots, and this one's abilities are amplified and better analogues to Ajani's. Brainstorm is back, and it + Visions + Jace + fetches provide all CA needed to respond threats in a 1-1 basis in a long game.
GY hate clogs the SB because attrition strategies overdues your card draw/selection. You won't get Visions, Humility or Jace online before Dredge kills you, and any Loam-based deck can be troublesome. Firewalker just buys you time until the other cards get online, and it's pretty good at it.
The aspect I liked the most in this UW list is the amount of cheap spells, in contrast with the 4CC gamebreakers. It's possible start playing control as soon as turn one, and when the game reaches the 2-3 spells-a-turn step, you pair it up, then refill. Brainstorm, Ponder and FoW are what always made Threshold variants good, and if a control deck can make good use of them, it may profit.
Which are your thoughts about Jace?
Tapping lands and watching the sky falling since 1995.
-------------------------------------------------------
FeFe Team - Fame, girls and Mox Diamonds
AHHHHHHH MULHEK!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------
Elen Síla Lúmenn Ommentielvo!
@Silvergreen
You're running a list not to dissimilar in approach to a UW list I dropped in the Quinn thread not to long ago. My version was more of a Permanent control style derived from the way MUC handles treats
I absolutely agree about the new Jace, he really is worth all the hype and makes slow control in Legacy possible once again. I hardly ever use his +2, -1, or -12 abilities as his brainstorm is just way too profittable. He's a must answer card, like Bob, only answering him is pretty hard in a deck packed with counters and chump-blockers (I used Elspeth and Mobilization)
I'm interested in how you're finding Harm's Way. Obviously a deck like this struggles in the early turns and a card like this is quite useful for that, but I always avoided it because I didn't think 2 damage/prevention was enough to make a difference. Could you elaborate on conditions when you found it to be particularly helpful?
-Mono (just a heads up, I will be stealing heavily from your list)
4 stp
4 lightning helix
4 firesprout
12 removel
2 ajani
2 jace Mind
4 win
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Spell Pierce
4 Ancestral Vision
2 CoW
2 EE
20 Stuff
3 tundra
4 volcanic island
4 Mishra Factory
1 plateau
4 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
1 academy ruin
3 wasteland
2 island
1 plain
Here's what I'd change for a mixed meta:
"UWR Walkerstill"
4 stp
2 PtE (0)
2 lightning helix ( used to be 4)
3 firesprout (4)
3 EE ------------------------- (formerly 2)
(14 removal)
1 ajani ---------------------- (formerly 2)
2 Elspeth ------------------ (formerly 0)
2 Jace 2.0
(5 win cons)
4 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Top
4 FOW
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare (used to be Spell Pierce)
4 Standstill ------------------- (formerly Ancestral Vision) - with Merfolk on the decline, Standstill has become strong again imo.
(18 Stuff)
(= 37)
---
3 scalding tarn
4 Flooded Strand (0)
3 tundra
2 volcanic island (4)
4 Mishras Factory
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mountain
2 island
2 plain (1)
(23)
* I don't believe in control decks trying to establish a wastelock - you simply want to keep your land since it is more valuable to you than it is to aggro players. It's true that it does recur your Factories but you don't rely on them as win cons really.
SB:
2 Ray of Distortion
2 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
3 REB
-
That's roughly what I've been playing to reasonable success in the recent past.
IDK if the footnote was meant to support a lack of Crucible of Worlds or a lack of Wasteland; I can assume it's explaining the lack of the the combination of the two. In which case, I totally agree audibling to Wastelock as a goto win condition against aggro is risky; alot of the time the control player does get more out of their land. If Wastelock was all Crucible offered I'd definitely religate it to the Sideboard for control matches.
I think this card is often undervalued. Crucible is also rediculous virtual card advantage. Just using it to replay fetches every turn provides huge stability (ie: Thawing Glaciers). It improves top decks as you thin the deck out of X land drops, and any land you draw into in the mean time can sit in your hand, then be Brainstorm+Fetched away. Similarly it interacts great with Sensei's Divining Top, as one no longer needs to worry about getting land drops, they can pick the best of the top 3 cards, replay a fetch from the GY, fetch, and the following endstep set up again to draw the best of a new top 3 cards. Recurring Mishra's Factories can also be disruptive versus aggro, especially decks like Goblins where it doesn't need to get past summoning-sickness to trade with their guys.
TPDMC
For those of you running Wasteland and Crucible, why not run one Ghost Quarters to nuke basics? Eventually they will run out...
<Dave> dude...ive done this at ptq
Key word is EVENTUALLY. Ghost Quarter does nothing to immediately set back their development while still hindering yours. You should be running Wasteland well before Ghost Quarter.
This is true. I thought GQ put the basic into play tapped providing a pre/post-combat respite in countermagic wars.
<Dave> dude...ive done this at ptq
So, i think this deck is really interesting, and was playing around with a slightly modified version of one of the older builds.
// Lands
3 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
2 [ROE] Island (1)
2 [ROE] Plains (1)
2 [TE] Wasteland
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [HOP] Lightning Helix
2 [EX] Forbid
2 [TE] Humility
4 [DD2] Ancestral Vision
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [LG] Moat
3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
It performs decently, but I'm wondering if there's any changes that can be made to imporve the matchups against fast aggro decks. It seems lacking in that area.
Are you trying to shell up the game 1 against them? or are you trying to fix games 2 and 3 primarily?
So how exactly without maindecking Relic or splashing Black does this deck not get steamrolled by Reanimator?
Serious question. I've been playing a spinoff of this for three months now. Reanimator rolls me.
I suppose the old lists PROBABLY do get rolled by reanmiator although I could see a premptive Vengeant spelling problems for them unless they drop Inkwell... IDK though... If you wana work on a build to beat the current meta I am willing to give it another go... Its been a while since I picked up an old list to tweak.
I don't believe in maindecked gy.hate. I'd much rather lose all G1s against Reanimator, Loam.dec and Dredge and have a better shot at everything else than adding Relics.
Games two and three are actually rather favorable against Reanimator (and Dredge) imo.
My current gy.hate suite consists of 3 Faerie Macabre* and 2 Relics. REB is very useful, too, as it counters Carefulstudy, Mystical Tutor and the eventual FOW.
I believe FM. is the ultimate SB card atm. Until recently I thought it belonged into archetypes with fast clocks only, but I playing it in control shells changed my mind very soon.
With the rise of Reanimator, even Crypt has become too slow in some scenarios. It's true, FM spells card disadvantage - its benefits (speed, unpredictability) outweigh that aspect tenfold though.
Sure FM can be Needled like Relic, but it's still a less common choice and won'tl usually be named G2 if it didn't show before.
All I can say is give it a roll and see how it works for you.
Cheers.
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