There really is no reliable way to bounce or get rid of your Serra's Sanctum, except by dropping another Sanctum to Legend rule it out. I only run 2, and the only time I want to see both in my hand, is if my opponent is playing Wastelands.Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao
By the time you have Sigil out, you should be winning. Cream of the Crop is not going to be the most helpful card. Plus, you could also be hitting 2 Enchantments that you need, and Cropping first, you end up putting one of them on the bottom, and then still have to rely on some luck to hit what you need in the next 3 cards. Personally, I don't like it. It's a dead card most of the game.
I don't even see any point to this card. There are other enchantments for G that I would rather put in, that would actively do something for me, like Exploration, or Mirri's Guile. And then, if you put in Woodland Guidance for you to actually do something with the Clash... what good is it? Return a single card from your graveyard to hand, and MAYBE untap all your forests and draw a card. Or, I can just play Replenish and return all those Enchantments in my yard to play. This is not a very good choice.
If you want to play aggro, then go play your Elfball deck. Enchantress isn't just about being a "draw engine to draw out you deck" and then killing like Elfball is. Enchantress is about controlling the early game and having silver bullets available and fetchable to help in different match ups, locking your opponent out, and then smashing his face in once you're set up. So please don't tell me that Elfball is a faster deck that does the same thing. It really doesn't, unless you refer only to drawing a lot of cards. Elfball can be shut down by a timely Bolt, Helix, Swords, or Counter. It's a lot harder to do that against Enchantress seeing as how those cards that can stop Elfball are more prevalent in the current meta, than the things that can shut down Enchantress. Enchantress has a good match up against pretty much all the aggro decks, and even has a decent match up against some of the control decks. The only poor match up tends to be combo, but we do have ways of staving them off for a little bit and pulling out a win.
I don't mean to sound hostile here, but I've had a decent amount of experience with this deck, and have seen some awful ideas thrown about for the deck from people that have barely played it, or never played it, and people that put down a card without ever trying it or doing any meaningful testing with it when others have done a lot of testing with it and it's used in most lists. The lists that are out there are generally pretty tight and there's only a few slots that are open for tinkering around with and some of the match ups are already tight enough that you don't want to put dead and wasteful cards in by taking out optimal cards. The sideboard tends to be where you see a lot more of the tinkering and individuality.
With that out of the way... here's what I'm currently looking at for a sideboard (with 1 City of Solitude, 2 Runed Halo, 1 Karmic Justice, and 1 Ground Seal in the main in silver bullet slots)
3x Mindbreak Trap
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Sacred Ground
2x Vexing Susher
1x CoP Red
1x Words of Worship
1x Blood Moon
2x Runed Halo
1x Aura of Silence
1x Choke/Wheel/Sacred Ground... Undecided on this last spot...
I am an Enchantress player... I mostly follow this thread only, and I run and appreciate the deck in the same way that you describe it, as a deck with silver bullets and tutors. However, what I get from this thread is that there are a lot more Enchantress players running it as a card draw engine basically focused on the engine itself, because they cut out the silver bullets AND they cut out the Tutors. I mean, I think your best play on T1 with 1 mana iin Enchantress is Enlightened Tutor, so it's completely different from the players who believe the the best play is Wild Growth/ Utopia Sprawl. Many players on this thread think Words of War and Solitary Confinement, and even MOAT! are essential elements to the deck and they see the "Enchantress engine" as ways to "feed" WoW or Confinement.
But the more I look at the 2 decks and directly compare Glimpse of Nature with Argothian Enchantress/ Enchantress' Presence, the harder it is to say that, bottom line both decks are trying to do the same thing. But Elfball is trying to do it on turn 2 and Enchantress Confinement is trying to do it on turn 10.
Wheel of Sun and Moon is only good proactively. I would use these slots for something like Faerie Macabre or Tormod's Crypt, because you need a way to delay Iona or something else coming back.
2 Choke is ideal. Seriously, Merefolk or Countertop/etc can be a problem, and you want multiple 'must counter' cards.
Words of Worship is.. meh. What are you trying to win with this, aggro?
Vexing Shusher is alright I guess, although I'd play City of Solitude in those slots.
Also re: eldrazi.. It's certainly interesting, but the thing about Words of War is that its mana can be spread out over multiple turns. Actually, with Serra's sanctum, getting 15 mana really isn't too tough, but man, that would be a terrible top deck unless you were on your way towards winning.
I'm back and forth on it... I want to test it in the ANT match up as Zappa has done... I'm iffy on it... but it can also work against Burn, and I'd consider bringing it in against Naya Zoo to give me some breathing room against the burn.
Also, Wheel of Sun and Moon can work well against Dredge and Loam decks. Those will be staying in the board. I've been back and forth on several changes and am finding it hard to decide on some of those changes.
A friend of mine brought an idea that I think has merit to it to my attention.
What about a one of Emrakul in the deck/sb?
He thought of it more as a way to win against the mirror (which exists in my meta) but it could also be a way to just win the game.
Its faster than both Sigil and Words and can't be held off as well as the other 2. Also, in a pinch it stops any danger of decking out.
Anyway, is this a legit thought or just danger of cool things?
My belief is danger of cool things. It is probably easier to hardcast an Eldrazi with an artifact shell (metal worker, voltaic key, urzatron, etc) or Elves (Priestess of Titania + lots of others).
It's a nice win condition, but if you have 15 mana available, you should probably be winning regardless of the actual win-con. It just becomes a useless top deck, which also can't be spread over multiple turns like Sigil or War can.
I dunno, I might test it and see how feasible it is in a typical game.
Emrakul is definitely the danger of cool things. I like my win conditions to at least be marginally useful if you're behind in the game, which Emrakul is most certainly not. The only way you hit 15 mana is with Sanctum + a full board, which means your engine is already going and WoW will likely just win that turn anyway. Another minor point is that discarding Emrakul at any point resets your Replenishes, which could lead to awkward corner cases where your opponent blows Deed and proceeds to Thoughtseize away Emrakul or something stupid like that.
If the mirror is a concern, just play more Aura of Silences than the other guy. Those at least have solid applications against Countertop, Storm, and jank like Affinity and Stax.
Yeah Enchantress is very very unlike Elfball. In fact I can't really think of another deck that is really anything like Enchantress. Since the printing of Krosan Grip it's the only deck that can really achieve a hard lock past game 1.
There are 3 main decktypes in Magic which everyone knows as Aggro, Combo, and Control. At this point in the game though decks can fill 2 of those roles. Examples would be CounterTop as Aggro/Control, Elfball as Combo/Aggro, and Enchantress is Combo/Control. These decks are good not because they blindly go towards one path to victory like a straight aggro deck, but because they have multiple paths to victory. Playing Vs. Elball stopping the combo is only 1/2 the battle because they can drop all the elves from their hand and attack even if Glimpe gets countered. Playing as Enchantress I can win without ever comboing out. I can drop lock pieces to limit the damage you can do to me then drop Sigil and beat you to death with Angel tokens even without a single Enchantress in play. That's not the ideal situation, but trust me, it happens from time to time. Enchantress is by no means an Aggro deck. You could attempt to make it Combo/Aggro but it would never be better than Elfball at that role with the current cards available.
Another option some people take is to build Enchantress as a more combo oriented deck. This is a fine approach in some metas but weakens the control aspect of the deck and usually cuts back on silver bullets. That's really the #1 descion you have to make when you build Enchantress. How much am I going to focus on combo and how much am I going to focus on control. It's a sliding scale and if you find the right balance you have a good Enchantress deck. Really you can make Enchantress as combo centric as you want, but at some point you could reach a critical mass as you remove control pieces and you might as well just play a dedicated combo deck.
Last edited by dontbiteitholmes; 04-15-2010 at 10:55 PM. Reason: formatted, sorry i was at work and typed it fast
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Paragraphs are savage tech in enchantress. Even when they don't really make sense. Just easier to follow than the wall of text.
Whenever I see a kid in a wheelchair it makes me a little sad. Because I always think, "Gee, they could have used those same wheels to make a bike for a regular kid. What a waste."
A few topics others may wish to expand on:
The Combo Matchup
This is any deck that consistently wins turn 3 or faster, usually without attacking (Tendrils variants, but also Belcher). Since Enchantress doesn't do anything flashy until turn 3-4, these decks face little pressure and basically just goldfish us. This matchup is so bad that it may not even be worth sideboard slots. Mindbreak Trap is a decent answer to storm decks, though it can easily be Duressed away. If one runs Trap, is it worth the full 4 slots in the board?
Acceleration
Utopia Sprawl is universally used as a 4-of. Wild Growth is great, but some decks opt to run less Growths in favor of faster acceleration, such as Chrome Mox, Spirit Guides, or Lotus Petal. These allow first turn Argothians as well as insurance against Daze. One thing I'd like to state is that Simian Spirit Guide is functionally similar to ESG (you will mulligan any hand without a forest or fetch land), and can help make casting Words of War and Blood Moon easier. Lotus Petal can be used for white mana, which makes double white enchantments (like Runed Halo and Moat) easier to cast.
Interaction
Enchantress typically seeks to eliminate interaction from the game by casting restrictive enchantments. Realizing this, it may be worth pushing the deck towards even more of a prison archetype. Some options include:
-multiple maindeck Blood Moons
-obliterate (kills everything except enchantments and can't be countered)
-winter orb (stacked land auras and sanctum make the drawback not as symmetrical.
Going Blue
G/W/r has been the most stable build of late IMO, but G/U/w is very interesting. Having Force of Will helps against all of our problematic matchups, and we have the inherent card advantage to make up for its drawback. Words of Wind is solid, and removes to Force. Propaganda is strong as well, and can replace an Elephant Grass without much problem. Finally, Enchantress is a deck that takes a lot of advantage from seeing more cards of its deck, so spells like Ponder may be a welcome addition. There are also unique enchantments such as Energy Field and Stasis that some decks could try to take advantage of.
"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him.
Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."
-Sun Tzu
The American metagame has relatively few combo players. I don't have exact statistics offhand, but I know at one 1200-man event, only like 50 of people were running combo. Regardless of the relatively low threat of getting matched vs. combo, we still need to consider whether running combo hate is worth the sideboard addition in a big tournament. I'm beginning to think that, no, it's not. None of your answers are especially reliable in terms of getting them out before turn two, and Mindbreak Trap is iffy at best due to Duress, Orim's Chant, and Xantid Swarm. Your best bet is simply running a couple more Runed Halos and hoping for the best.
This leaves other slots for other difficult but potentially winnable matchups. Reanimator can pose a real problem, and for this reason Lignify in addition to Oblivion Ring should be strongly considered. You can handle the other creatures, but Iona shutting off one color basically means you lose. Because your deck is already pretty much anti-dredge to begin with, your sideboard graveyard hate should probably focus on hurting Reanimator -- thus, Faerie Macabre and Tormod's Crypt over other options like Relic or Wheel of Sun and Moon.
Given the mana curve, I think 8-10 mana sources in addition to your 20 lands is mandatory. I have been liking my mix of 4 Sprawl, 3 Growth, 1 Exploration, and 2 Chrome Mox. It is very dependent upon how the rest of your deck is built, but having some turn 1 plays is key.
Limiting interaction -- how much better can you get than Solitary Confinement? I run 3. Then you shut down the attack step via Moat/Elephant Grass, with Solitary Confinement leading to many players scooping game 1. Even when they bring in their Grips or Reverent Silences on G2/G3, you will possibly have Karmic Justice as backup or be able to live another turn to replenish stuff back in. I don't think Enchantress really needs to run additional prison cards, because you are running 10+ of them already. 1 Blood Moon maindeck seems like it could fit in the silver bullet slot, but multiples might be an interesting idea.
Blue is an interesting idea, but Enchantress is a pretty tight deck as it is. To run FoW you'd want 14+ blue spells, and blue doesn't offer many great enchantments. Remember, white offers you Moat, Sterling Grove, Solitary Confinement, etc.. Enchantress is a very tight deck, and doesn't even run "auto includes" of its main colors (Swords to Plowshares, Tarmogoyf) because it wants the synergy from casting enchantments. Splashing blue just to include some counterspells and search seems like it would be hurting the consistency of the deck.
.
Last edited by wcm8; 04-18-2010 at 10:58 PM. Reason: double post
This may have already been brought up at one point or another, but what do people think of Trace of Abundance? It's basically Utopia Sprawl for one more, but it protects your non-basics, most importantly Serra's Sanctum, from everything short of things like Armageddon, Cataclysm, or Devastating Dreams.
Meh. I've found it works fairly well for me, but the speed of Legacy in my area is generally a few turns slower than everywhere else, so it might not be suited for more ordinary metas. It does let you run more non-basics, though, which is important for being able to drop an early Runed Halo or Aura of Silence, both of which are good against ANT, which is probably our worst match-up. In addition, you can dump it on a non-basic if it's your only land without fearing a two-for-one from Wasteland.
For the record, this is the list I am running as of the moment, which is probably a full turn slower than many of those out there. I post it mostly so you can see what I've done with the mana base and how I handle the first turn without Enlightened Tutor or Wild Growth, so try not to pick apart the whole list when I'm more or less suggesting one card.
Trace of Abundance is currently in the place of Wild Growth, for those who want to know what, if anything, it replaced.
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
5 Forest
4 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Trace of Abundance
2 Exploration
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Replenish
2 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence
1 Lignify
1 Words of War
1 Moat
1 Karmic Justice
1 Sacred Mesa
SB:
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Lignify
1 City of Solitude
2 Choke
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Sacred Ground
2 Aura of Silence
2 Karmic Justice
2 Runed Halo
On a final note, I do realize there's a search function, and I used it, although probably not properly, to see if this has already been brought up. I say it mostly because someone will feel the need to make a post reminding me of the search function, and this means you don't have to. Lucky you, eh?
You have sacred ground in your sideboard. Do people in your meta run a lot of land destruction?
re: Trace of Abundance, it seems like a bit of a pet card to me. Getting W or G is generally not an issue, and R is only a factor when you're approaching the late game. You have 4 Sprawl, 4 Heaths, and a Taiga that will let you get it when the time is right. Words of War is rarely a good early game play.
Also, Trace is not an instant, therefore it doesn't protect against a Wasteland that's already on the table which is where its use would be nice. Enchantress's resiliency to wasteland is one of its strongest perks game 1. And then against fast decks that don't run Wasteland, eg: Zoo, having a turn one play is needed.
The first couple turns isn't the only time when Wild Growth's lower cost is a factor... It's also better when you are on your way towards 'comboing out' via War or Sigil. Which, btw, is absent in your list. I think you should include at least one of them as a wincon, even if you do decide to keep Sacred Mesa in there.
I see the advantage of protecting your Sanctum, but it seems like using a worse card just to do it isn't all that advantageous. Also, you only seem to be running 2 more non-basics than a typical Enchantress deck runs, so it's not like you're running 4 savannah, 4 taiga, 4 plateau, etc...
I use to play sacred ground in my sideboard because it work with sacrifices effects like smallpox, devastating dreams and smokestack.
I moved away from Sacred Ground in my SB recently. I used to bring it in vs. any deck that ran 8x or more land desctruction or any number of Armageddon effects but it was really only in the SB for Geddon insurance. With less and less decks running land sweepers I just don't see the urgent need. Only 1/3 of Aggro Loam decks seem to run Dreams and that leaves Geddon' Stax as the main deck worth the slot and then Karmic Justice is better most of the time. My SB is all over the place right now but before I sided the S. Ground back in I'd probably add a 2nd Justice unless something dramatically changed in the meta. For those who still run Ground how does it work for you and do you end up siding it in very often?
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
In an already tight sideboard, Sacred Ground seems just a little too narrow. I think that it is better served by Karmic Justice because it also punishes opponents for sweepers. I understand that it is amazing for making you feel better vs. potential Armageddons, but they won't play them with Sacred Ground out anyway. They will hold off on it until they can remove your SG, then do it. I'd do the same thing vs. Karmic Justice anyway, but at least this way you get the more versatile answer in the board instead of the super narrow one.
Whenever I see a kid in a wheelchair it makes me a little sad. Because I always think, "Gee, they could have used those same wheels to make a bike for a regular kid. What a waste."
My main concern is actually Devastating Dreams, Aggro Loam seems to be getting more popular as of late and I don't want to be a bye for them AND combo.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Karmic Justice puts them in an awkward position, because you'll be blowing up the rest of their board. If you are playing against any deck that packs land destruction, you should be conservative with your lands drops and avoid overextending. Aggro Loam should be a decent matchup, and nowhere near the 'bye' you are describing. Drop a Moat and/or sustain a Solitary Confinement. Play Ground Seal main if you are expecting to see a lot of Loam. Put CoP Red or Worship in your sideboard. I really don't think this is too-difficult of a matchup if you get your engine rolling.
Depending on their exact build, aggro loam has 2 cards you are scared of. Pridemage and Dreams. Pridemage is easy to work with. Dreams is trickier. KJ goes a long way. Holding a land or two in hand along with spreading the love with wild growths around instead of on a single land are nice. Another thing that I've noticed is neat is that blood moon makes them amazingly reliant on their diamonds.
Whenever I see a kid in a wheelchair it makes me a little sad. Because I always think, "Gee, they could have used those same wheels to make a bike for a regular kid. What a waste."
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