New Competitive Eternal Format Coming

[Skeggi]

Why has Vintage failed? It's a perfectly good alternative to playing Legacy every once in a while.

[Cabal_chan]

Well, so far we only got three "eternal formats" and Vintage (with Force of Will) has already failed, while EDH is doing okay at the moment and you can't run more than one Force in the format. So, your argument right now is a bit spurious.

What was your argument for FoW being bad for the format?

[DrJones]

What was your argument for FoW being bad for the format?

There are plenty of reasons for this, but the main one is that it allows degenerate combo decks that are too difficult to hate.

[Cabal_chan]

There are plenty of reasons for this, but the main one is that it allows degenerate combo decks that are too difficult to hate.

And you say that Vintage is a failed format why?

Edit: Wait, huh? How does FoW allow degenerate combo decks when FoW is one of the cards that keeps combo in check?

[(nameless one)]

And you say that Vintage is a failed format why?

Edit: Wait, huh? How does FoW allow degenerate combo decks when FoW is one of the cards that keeps combo in check?

LOL, whenever there is a discussion about Force of Will, Dr. Jones will always be there bashing it. I have a feeling he/she is one of those Belcher pilots. There are two things Belcher pilots hate: Force of Will and ANT.

[DrJones]

LOL, whenever there is a discussion about Force of Will, Dr. Jones will always be there bashing it. I have a feeling he/she is one of those Belcher pilots. There are two things Belcher pilots hate: Force of Will and ANT.

Belcher and SI are bad combo decks, I'd rather play burn.

Edit: With all my respects to the players that still play Burn, Belcher and Spanish Inquisition.

[ktkenshinx]

Force of Will is not on the Reserved List. It could easily be reprinted if Wizards wanted the format to thrive and was concerned about degenerate combo. Daze would also be involved just by virtue of being in Nemesis.

I do not understand the argument that Storm combo decks are kept in check by Force of Will. They can be equally checked with Stifle, Trickbind, Duress, Thoughtseize, Mindbreak Trap, and so on. FoW certainly helps keep them in check, but it is by no means the only option. Besides, it would be easy to ban Ad Nauseum (a card that enables only one deck) to slow down the format. Dark Ritual? They won't ban it. It assists too many potential strategies that Wizards would like to encourage. Yet, even if you flatly disagreed with every single argument in this post, you cannot help but admit that they can reprint FoW and include it in the new format.

As to Vintage, the format might not have failed, but it has certainly floundered. Legacy is by far the more popular format at the moment, both pushed by Wizards and by other major Magic-based organizations. After all, SCG did not host a Vintage Open.

-ktkenshinx-

[Anusien]

The thing about all the specialized combo hate cards is that they're exactly that: specialized combo hate cards. Part of the problem for combo is that half the format runs Force of Will. The same would not be true for Mindbreak Trap in a FoW-less format.

[General_Norris]

^And it only stops Storm decks that do not run any discard or protection like every combo deck that doesn't try to be a glass cannon.

[Admiral_Arzar]

^And it only stops Storm decks that do not run any discard or protection like every combo deck that doesn't try to be a glass cannon.

The above is true, to some degree. Of course, there will always be times where either the combo deck doesn't draw protection, or the opponent doesn't draw hate. From all the gloom and doom in this thread you'd think that a format with viable combo decks *gasp* is a horrible thing. Personally, I like formats where all three major archetypes are represented in reasonable numbers. Also, it should be noted that hate often does not have to completely shut down a combo deck - merely disrupt it sufficiently to allow the opponent time to win or gain advantage (i.e. set up Top + Cbalance lock).

[Smmenen]

No, what he means is that the players are cliquey douchebags.
.

But how can you tell if someone is 'cliquey' on an internet forum? That doesn't make sense to me.

Otherwise it's just anecdotal evidence.

[Koby]

Hypothetical analysis of Over-extended:

Legal sets: MM through present (excluding 6th Edition, which came out before MM)

"Problem cards":
* Mind's Desire
* Dark Ritual (and derivatives namely, the red ones)
* Counterbalance/Sensei's Top (specific interaction)
* Gush
* AEther Vial (was banned in old Extended which was more or less the same format)
* Disciple of the Vaults
etc

I don't see logical reason for formulating this new format when it would necessitate a whole slew of fresh bannings from past learned experience in the older Extended format and current Legacy format. Removing sets up through Urza's Destiny and 6th Edition will not prevent the format from degenerating into combo decks of yesteryear.

Again, I reiterate that this format will still be MTGO-incomplete (lacks Masques Block and the latter two sets of Saga Block), and thus assert that this is a hoax/rumor that is unsound.

[Aggro_zombies]

Hypothetical analysis of Over-extended:

Legal sets: MM through present (excluding 6th Edition, which came out before MM)

"Problem cards":
* Mind's Desire
* Dark Ritual (and derivatives namely, the red ones)
* Counterbalance/Sensei's Top (specific interaction)
* Gush
* AEther Vial (was banned in old Extended which was more or less the same format)
* Disciple of the Vaults
etc

I don't see logical reason for formulating this new format when it would necessitate a whole slew of fresh bannings from past learned experience in the older Extended format and current Legacy format. Removing sets up through Urza's Destiny and 6th Edition will not prevent the format from degenerating into combo decks of yesteryear.

Again, I reiterate that this format will still be MTGO-incomplete (lacks Masques Block and the latter two sets of Saga Block), and thus assert that this is a hoax/rumor that is unsound.

The thing is, the rumor is that this format is still "under development," and not scheduled to be announced until later this year with seasons starting next year. By that time, Masques should be online.

[Puzzle]

I own a lot of Legacy cards but I think there is a good case for such a new format if they won't reprint dual lands.
Ignoring the question of where to start (I'd prefer Tempest but am not fussed), if we want Legacy to really flourish, then we need new players to replace the ones leaving.
New players will be discouraged if they can't compete with older ones because they have to play Rav-lands instead of duals, for instance, or if they can't find FoW.
Yes, these cards can be found but this requires effort looking for them and a potential new player is unlikely to make that effort if he can more easily access another format.

Additionally, I don't think losing Fow or duals is such a big deal.
The format would obviously be different but is it such a bad thing in itself ?
The B&R list can handle combo better than any card.
I'd argue that fetches are actually often better than straight duals. In fact, not having duals would force people to make more difficult decisions about what to fetch, raising the interest of the game.

I think I'm on a similar wavelength to ktkenshinx but may be going even further, in thinking that such a format could actually advantageously replace Legacy if it's well handled [/controversy].

[Koby]

The thing is, the rumor is that this format is still "under development," and not scheduled to be announced until later this year with seasons starting next year. By that time, Masques should be online.

I disagree by this assesment, partly because we do know the release schedule for MTGO. Here's the skinny for those who don't want to jump through links:

Product Description   			Release Date
Shards of Alara Block Booster Packs 	1/18/2010
Worldwake 				2/22/2010
Duel Decks: Phyrexia vs. The Coalition 	3/22/2010
Urza's Saga 				3/29/2010
Rise of the Eldrazi 			5/10/2010
Urza's Legacy 				6/21/2010
Magic 2011 				8/2/2010
From the Vault: Relics			8/30/2010
Scars of Mirrodin 			10/18/2010
Masters Edition 4 			12/13/2010

At best, we will get MM in the 2nd half of 2011, with Nemesis and Prophecy filling out the rest of 2012. I don't see high level support for MTGO PTQs in this new format while it is missing vital cards from those sets. MED4 is also unlikely to include cards that are forward Mirage, so that would not help to fulfill the new format's set discrepancy. Realistic projection of MM appearing online is June 2011.

[Nightmare]

I LIKE playing with dual lands. I LIKE playing with Force of Will - and against it. I LIKE playing with Natural Order, and Survival of the Fittest, and all of the staples that this format is going to take away. Hell I don't even mind LED - not that much, anyway.

I don't particularly care about whether Wizards creates a new format or not. I played Legacy before they supported it, and I'll play it after. I drove hundreds of miles for duals when they were 20 a piece. I'll do it again when they're 20 again. Sure, a few GPs were nice, and so are the SCG Opens. But they were not why I started playing Legacy, and if they go, I am positive the format will survive as it did for years before they showed up.

[Aggro_zombies]

I disagree by this assesment, partly because we do know the release schedule for MTGO. Here's the skinny for those who don't want to jump through links:

Product Description   			Release Date
Shards of Alara Block Booster Packs 	1/18/2010
Worldwake 				2/22/2010
Duel Decks: Phyrexia vs. The Coalition 	3/22/2010
Urza's Saga 				3/29/2010
Rise of the Eldrazi 			5/10/2010
Urza's Legacy 				6/21/2010
Magic 2011 				8/2/2010
From the Vault: Relics			8/30/2010
Scars of Mirrodin 			10/18/2010
Masters Edition 4 			12/13/2010

At best, we will get MM in the 2nd half of 2011, with Nemesis and Prophecy filling out the rest of 2012. I don't see high level support for MTGO PTQs in this new format while it is missing vital cards from those sets. MED4 is also unlikely to include cards that are forward Mirage, so that would not help to fulfill the new format's set discrepancy. Realistic projection of MM appearing online is June 2011.

First, some background.

The people at WoTC want to support Eternal formats at all levels of competitive play. Unfortunately, the format is simply too expensive for something like a Pro Tour and associated qualifier season to be economically viable. The price of key staples would be even higher they are now if they did this, due to increased demand. And because of the reserve list, they can't simply print more.

So, a new format is coming. It will be released later this year, with high-level events next year and probably a Pro Tour in 2012, assuming the format catches on. Here's how it will work.

1. Normal constructed Magic rules apply. This isn't a special-rules format like EDH or Planechase.
2. All cards printed during Masques block and later blocks, plus associated core sets, are legal (except banned cards, of course).
3. Nothing ever rotates out.

One point of uncertainty. My source says they haven't definitely decided on Masques block as the cutoff yet, but it will be around that time.

With the ability ro reprint staples if necessary, the people at WoTC hope they can make a non-rotating format which is accessible enough to use in a PT and qualifier season.

There's still plenty of time for Masques and Nemesis to come out. There's nothing worth playing in Prophecy anyway, so for all intents and purposes that set doesn't exist.

EDIT: @Nightmare: yes, but you're lucky to live in an area where there was a local Legacy scene to begin with and where there's enough interest for local stores to hold tournaments independently of the big ones. If the Wizards and SCG events die, interest in the rest of the country will taper off and those of us who live there will be screwed unless we shell out lots of money to get into MTGO Legacy. Interest around here is only sustained because of the big events putting Legacy into the limelight.

[Koby]

@Aggro_Zombies: I did read over the OP just to make sure I wasn't referencing it wrong. I agree with your points, and the general lacklusterness of Masques block. While I wouldn't care much about this format, it is telling that WotC would speculate a new Eternal format that isn't completely accessible on MTGO, for which they've been dreaming of aligning with paper since eons ago - and finally achieved with the Extended rotations of 2006. I don't anticipate them creating another semi-format online just to appease Reserve List Abolishiners (myself included). I think the whole idea stinks of corporate greed. However, I do recognize the need for a format that fulfills a bridge between Legacy proper and Extended.

I'm simply saying, such a format could easily become BYOS or Block Wars, as that would achieve a limited enough scope and have set parameters of only allowing sets printed after the Reserve List became a non-issue.

Perhaps there should be more push towards sanctioning BYOS instead of crying fowl for this abomination of an Eternal format that is being proposed in the OP.

[lordofthepit]

I'd be okay with this format if it replaces Extended: either as a sanctioned format, or as a de facto replacement in causing Extended players to defect to this new format. I'd simply keep playing Legacy, and while I currently have no intention of trying this new format, I'll keep my options open.

However, if this drives players away from Legacy, this would be disastrous and I would be strongly inclined to quit Magic altogether.

[Aggro_zombies]

@Aggro_Zombies: I did read over the OP just to make sure I wasn't referencing it wrong. I agree with your points, and the general lacklusterness of Masques block. While I wouldn't care much about this format, it is telling that WotC would speculate a new Eternal format that isn't completely accessible on MTGO, for which they've been dreaming of aligning with paper since eons ago - and finally achieved with the Extended rotations of 2006. I don't anticipate them creating another semi-format online just to appease Reserve List Abolishiners (myself included). I think the whole idea stinks of corporate greed. However, I do recognize the need for a format that fulfills a bridge between Legacy proper and Extended.

I'm simply saying, such a format could easily become BYOS or Block Wars, as that would achieve a limited enough scope and have set parameters of only allowing sets printed after the Reserve List became a non-issue.

Perhaps there should be more push towards sanctioning BYOS instead of crying fowl for this abomination of an Eternal format that is being proposed in the OP.

Well, almost everything playable in Masques block is already online: Daze (Jace vs. Chandra), Brainstorm (Coldsnap precons), Counterspell (Seventh Edition), and Dark Ritual (various sets). The things that aren't: Rishadan Port, Misdirection, and Unmask. And Rebels, I suppose, but I can't see how that would be a playable deck.

Either way, Wizards tied its own hands over the Reserved List, so there is now a real ceiling on the number of people the format can support. This theoretical format would combine most of the breadth of Legacy with the size of modern print runs and the ability to reprint cards as needed. Neither Block Wars nor BYOS have the depth of interactions a huge card pool has, but they can't go too far back in time before hitting Reserved List limitations.

But really, let's face it: the only cards that see widespread play from before Masques are the duals and Force. There are some others - components of 43Land, artifact mana, or Reanimate, for example - but by and large many of the decks we play consist almost entirely of cards printed after Masques. True, the new format would be very different due to the lack of duals, Force of Will, and broken combo accelerants, but there's also more room for decisions (for example, mana base construction now has real costs associated with running tons of duals other than "Gee, getting hit by Wasteland would suck." You wouldn't just automatically splash anymore, because of the CiPT clause on the Rav duals making life total management relative to tempo a real issue). Granted, it could very well end up stagnating like Extended did this season, but for all the appearance of dynamic flux Legacy is in, it's also pretty stagnant (not playing Reanimator, NO, Merfolk, or Zoo? Then, are you an amazing player or gigantic lucksack? No? Enjoy your negative zero chance of making it to the top tables).