yes , a especially now with many cards in RoE costing 7+ manas. it could easily be time to reprint a free counterspell. timmy would love it , he would not cry at all. and throw daze into it too , just by virtue.Originally Posted by ktkenshinx
Capitalization is required on these boards. Please use it in the future. Thanks. - zilla
-0 = +0
Just sayin'.
1. Let us assume that FoW is needed (which I do not think it is at all). Wizards could easily have their new format Extended Extended include new Master's Sets that were produced specifically to introduce staples into the metagame. A new From the Vaults: Staples set could bring back some old school Legacy cards into the new format, but not impact preexisting Extended and Standard decks. This would simply be a policy change on Wizards part, and as we know, they are perfectly alright with making policy changes.
2. Why exactly is FoW needed in this new format? Would it not be easier to ban certain components of degenerate decks? No one should read this question and counter with a long, sarcastic list of cards just to try and prove a contrary point. Extended works out just fine without FoW, and that format does not even involve various decks that would undoubtedly perservere in the new enviornment (Mono Black Aggro courtesy of Dark Ritual, Counter Rebels, Affinity, Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, Dredge, etc.) These are all perfectly viable strategies that could coexist alongside ThopterDepths and Countertop, especially if stategic bannings were made to ensure that certain decks, most notably combo, didn't get out of control.
-ktkenshinx-
This is sex.
yes , because if they wont do it for legacy , they will certainly do it for an imaginary format. also , at what point after Masters Set: Staples , would the format basically become legacy minus duals.
Capitalization is required on these boards. Please use it in the future. Thanks. - zilla
Personally, I think this is going to happen (and the more I think about it, the more exciting it is) - that being said, just because wizards can't reprint original duals doesn't mean they couldn't print cards that would help to get people playing legacy.
M10 lands with land-types would be (comes into play tapped unless you control another plains or island) would probably do the trick. That or Comes into play tapped unless you reveal a blue or white card from your hand (with basic types). Sure, both are strictly worse than duals, but both would also be passable enough to get beginners into the format. Eventually you'd want to have one or two real duals to compliment them, but it wouldn't be such a drastic need.
WoTC can also reprint FoW and wasteland as they want. Doing this in say M11 would go a long way towards improving the cost of the format. I own playsets of both, and I wouldn't be bothered in the slightest if they dropped down to 8-10 bucks a pop.
Honestly, passable duals and reprinted fow + wasteland would fix legacy for a long time.
Passable dual aren't really viable for the format. A dual situationally better than normal duals is the only thing that could be played over normal duals. For example:
Retarded Taiga
Land - Forest Mountain
As retarded Taiga come into play, reveal a green or red creature from your hand. If you do retarded Taiga do one damage to target opponent. If you don't, Retarded taiga come into play tapped.
is situationally better than normal taiga in aggressive decks and would be probably played there. Simply "strictly worse" dual are just stupid.
The new format will be interesting, but I have a bad feeling:
There is a card that is playable in 3 formats: Vintage, Legacy and Extended. It costs 75$.
If it will be playable in Vintage, Legacy, OverExtended and Extended, it will cost 75/3*4=100$.
Rough sketch and I don't say this will happend, but even a possibility of such nonsense scares the hell out of me.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
If Wizards made a new format, Extended Extended/Overextended/Esquared/Double E/whatever, then that would already be a huge slap in the face for Legacy. In this alternate history, Wizards' unwillingness to do something for the Legacy format has no bearing whatsoever on their willingness to do it for a new format. Indeed they would have every incentive to support this new format, whatever that would take.
That said, FoW is a staple that is simply un-needed in the new format. There is nothing that including FoW accomplishes that a new and relatively modest Banned (or even Restricted) list would not accomplish. Hypothetical arguments about a potential FTV set are all predicated on the necessity of FoW and other staples, a necessity that is completely unproven.
Moreover, by making a new format, Wizards is all but acknowledging that they are unlikely to reprint Legacy staples; if they were going to do so, then why bother making the new format? This is in response to both stuckpixel's and some guy's point.
I agree that "strictly worse" duals do nothing to help some Legacy players. I disagree, however, with your assertion that they "are just stupid." Even a somewhat worse Dual would ultimately benefit Legacy as a format, provided its drawback was not too severe. Why? Because then more players could become involved in the format with access to duals, even duals that were somewhat worse.
For instance, any of the following "Taiga's" would be playable in Legacy without being so much worse as to make it not worth their inclusion.
Aggro Taiga
Land - Forest Mountain
As Tribal Taiga enters the battlefield, you may reveal a creature from your hand. If you don't, Tribal Taiga enters the battlefield tapped.
Symbiotic Taiga
Land - Forest Mountain
As Symbiotic Taiga enters the battlefield, your opponent chooses Mountain or Forest. If you do not control a land of the chosen type, Symbiotic Taiga enters the battlefield tapped.
Scavenger Taiga
Land - Forest Mountain
As Contested Taiga enters the battlefield, you may exile a land card from your graveyard. If you don't, Scavenger Taiga enters the battlefield tapped.
The first works well in any GR aggro based deck; Zoo players would happily play this over a regular Taiga if it meant saving $20 (at least, new players entering the format). Symbiotic Taiga is a bit slower, essentially forcing a turn 3 Taiga. Scavenger Taiga almost has no drawback, given the prevalence of Fetchlands in Legacy. That said, a cycle of "Scavenger" cards might drive up Fetchland prices a bit more, but these are just ideas that merit tinkering. Such cards could drive a new Extended Extended format, although many of them are effectively better than the entire Ravnica Dual cycle.
FoW, Wasteland, Swords, etc. might not get reprinted. Tarmogoyf will unquestionably be.
-ktkenshinx-
The issue with all of your cards is that "Aggro Trop" "Symbiotic Trop" and "Scavenger Trop" will all be fine as Tropical Island 5-8.
Why doesn't Wizards simply remove the reprint policy? I don't see how they can attract more Legacy players without somehow making Legacy staples more easily obtainable at a reasonable price.
'Unquestionably' is a bit strong, unless they've out right said they're reprinting it.
Exactly. So then the only way to keep both formats in check would be to make these "strictly worse" duals playable only in this new format. That seems unlikely.
All that aside, I'm always taken aback at the mention of strictly worse counterparts to already existing Legacy staples. This often comes up here as a rational answer to open the format to newer players who may be hesitant to start due to the large overhead needed to build a decent deck. Maybe it's just me, but the last thing I would want to do is enter an arena holding a lesser weapon. If the other players are using FoW, duals, Wastes, ect, why would I want to jump in with anything but? I would never enter a race against four Vipers in a Camry. It's going to be hard enough for newer players to compete on level grounds, much less rolling up in shitboxes. Just sayin'.
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
The point was not that these cards were perfect examples of new Duals. The point was that it is possible to make Duals that are not functionally inferior to preexisting Duals in all situations. Besides, if Wizards is making a new format like this, they are essentially giving the finger to Legacy; they will not care too much about Tropical Islands 5-8 in the Legacy format.
The updated Wizards reprint policy is here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/art.../reprintpolicy
It is now effectively set in stone, and it effectively screws Legacy and Vintage. This further supports the possibility of a new format.
Wizards prints cards for other formats, not just for Legacy. Reprinting the Ranvica Shocklands, for instance, would suck for Legacy players, but would open up all sorts of options for Standard (including driving up Fetchland prices). New Duals would only need to benefit at least one format (T2, Extended, Extended Extended, Legacy, Vintage) for them to be printable.
One point that is clear: if Wizards makes a new format, it is a huge snub to Legacy players. All discussion of that hypothetical format should consider it as a snub and as nothing less. Consequently, comments about cards that are "Bad for Legacy" or "Strictly inferior to Legacy equivalents" are totally irrelevant. They do not need to be good for Legacy for them to benefit the new format, as well as T2 and Extended.
-ktkenshinx-
Im glad you understand the ins and outs of an unknown format so well, that you can definitely say for sure what it needs and what it doesnt before it even exists.
The big question is has anyone heard on whether or not we should even be having this conversation at all? So far, all I have heard is some random person with 1 post made this statement on Salvation and that was it.
It makes some sort of sense and then again, they almost have no reason to support something like that. Not like Magic online cares and that's the thing they push the hardest. I'd just like to have some sort of actual concrete evidence there's anything to this rumor at all other than "this guy posted it".
The thread on Salvation was locked earlier due to lack of evidence, if that helps you make up your mind.
I dont know. It seems the Mods/Admins here are more concerned with nitpicking capitalization.
You have posted 4 times on this forum, twice in this thread to offer exceedingly unhelpful contributions. There is nothing wrong with this thread; for the most part, conversation has been both productive and revealing. If Wizards employees and adminstrators are reading it, then they will learn either a) Legacy player impressions of their intended format or b) Legacy players impressions of a potential format that does not yet exist. The Salvation thread was closed because after over 700 posts, the thread was running in circles, with players literally repeating posts half a page above them. This forum has a higher standard of writing (for the most part).
-ktkenshinx-
You have posted 137 times on this forum, nine in this thread to offer exceedingly pretentious and convoluted contributions. What exactly has been productive here and what exactly has really been revealed ? That many people here fell for a massive troll post on another website ? That you can talk out your ass for hours and still not say anything ? You dont like UW Tempo too do you ?
If WotC wanted to know such information about a new format, why wouldnt they just post a poll on their website like they normally do ? And was the other thread closed due to lack of evidence or like you say, due to people repeating posts ? I can tell you which of those two makes more sense to me, but I only have the balls to speak for myself not everyone and everything as a whole. You act like you know everything, but the more you say, it shows you really know nothing at all.
Warning for flaming. If you think a topic is dumb, don't add to it. Pretty simple. - Bardo
Last edited by Bardo; 04-22-2010 at 12:20 AM.
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