I'd play Tundra - GoOriginally Posted by leiweiling
I'm usually not too afraid of Wasteland, especially when I have 2 more "spare" Lands.
If it doesn't get wasted you are in great shape. You can probably waste them, fetch a Jitte, put some preassure with Avenger or recycle your hand with BS + fetch.
I really like being flexible when I don't know what I am up against an this play leaves me a lot of options.
Congratulations, you're right.
And if it does get wasted? Perhaps I play too conservatively, but you also run the risk of losing the important secondto play Avenger.
So, if you are on the draw and your opponent plays a dual, would you play the Wasteland first turn? I would. Why would you expect any opponent to do less? Again, maybe I'm too conservative.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
Went 2-0-2 today.
Round1, New Horizons. I win game1 after a short struggle, and the game2 gets really long. Things go back and forth, and on 5th additional turn, he StPs two of my remaining blockers and swings with a huge KoTR ftw. Draw.
Round2, Mirror with Kremenchugsky (he wint 1-1-2 today). Game 3 ends on turns in unclear situation. Draw.
Round3, BGW Fish. Really quick 2-0, he kept a one land game1 and mulled to 5 game2.
Round4. Merfolk 2-1. I drop a game to Merfolk Sovereign that sent Cursecatcher unblockable equipped with a jitte. I had 2 Moms.
A positive record, but no prizes.
I really can't imagine that you thought about the situation and chalk it up to "being conservative." It's not about being conservative, it's just a mistake to lead the fetchland.And if it does get wasted? Perhaps I play too conservatively, but you also run the risk of losing the important second
So, if you are on the draw and your opponent plays a dual, would you play the Wasteland first turn? I would. Why would you expect any opponent to do less? Again, maybe I'm too conservative.
You're going to eat the Wasteland anyway. The Tundra opening gives you the most options and reveals the least information to your opponent.
EDIT: To elaborate on the above: If you lead the wasteland, your opponent knows that you have a wasteland, so he knows to fetch basics or defensively waste your wasteland or whatever else.
The only time when you'd regret the Tundra lead is if your opponent plays a Blood Moon on turn 1, but you still have the Force of Will so big whoop (also your hand still has the huge thumbs up against Dragon Stompy with the second turn Stoneforge Mystic).
I don't see how playing a Tundra gives less info than playing a Flooded Strand. I didn't say sacrifice the fetch land. ANT also plays Flooded Strands as does Bant. I'm just not sure how playing a fetch that can go for multiple duals gives as much info as playing a dual itself.
Yes, you will eat a Wasteland anyway, but the way I would play it, would give you use of two mana before they had a chance. You play fetch, they play Wasteland, you don't fetch until you're ready to use the mana. Then you can play your Tundra, tap, fetch play Avenger or SfM.
Also, by playing the fetch, I don't see how the whole "Swamp, Duress, oops" is so much different than Tundra. If you're implying you can Brainstorm, you still have that option with the fetch. If you're implying that you should play the Tundra first on the offhand chance your opponent will play a Duress so you can then shuffle the one card away (wouldn't be two because you would draw before you had a chance to fetch--> shuffle), then that is pretty far fetched. Wastelands are far more prevalent in the format than Duress.
I know that you guys are usually 100% sure about everything and like to label any other opinion as wrong, which is why it's hard to have a discussion here and why so far I've stayed out of this thread, and why I'll probably continue to stay out of this thread. With so many possibilities happening on turn one after you pass your turn, to say with 100% certainty that how I would play it is wrong just boggles the mind.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
Shouldn't you be able to do computations? The best play is not an opinion, it's fact. You can only claim we're wrong, not that we only speak for ourselves. So let's assume you're claiming that I'm wrong. For the record, here's the play I'd make with that hand.
Turn 1 tundra, EOT BS unless you my opponent reveals that he's control. The reasoning is: This hand is pretty beefy, and you can tell that your mana well be spent until say around turn 4-5. If you don't use brainstorm now, it's not going to go live again until like turn 6.
I don't know what you want. Do you want to see "In my opinion" tacked on to everything? Like it's not going to be a discussion if we don't say what our calculations reveal, and then if we do, then you get offended because we don't pretend that we're mistaken or something.
Chances are, if you think like everything is relative, and everybody is entitled to their own opinions (YAY!) then you're not going to be happy when people actually try to decide what the better play is, because somebody's play will be worse, and if that person feels like he was entitled to think his own way, then he'll probably be upset.
Unless your tundra gets wasted , then you just got fucking time walked. I love when people lead with fetch into dual only to waste them on my turn. please come and do this for me often , I will love you forever.
And? So it's a 1:1, where the game resets, only I got my brainstorm off relative to you for no tempo.
How is that a timewalk? A timewalk is where you actually jump ahead of your opponent. If you and your opponent both lose a turn, you don't say: YEAH I TIMEWALKED YEAH LOLOLOLOLOLOL I AM TEH WINNAR YEAH!
Notice how when you cast a timewalk, you get at least the following extra:
One land drop (absent here.)
You cast a spell, but you draw a card (even with the situation you posed)
An extra attack step (more or less present here)
An extra untap (Completely absent here)
So you lose tempo equal not only to one untap step, but one land drop as well, if you trade a real timewalk for your fake timewalk. I don't get how players who play in obviously symmetric or worse situations have the gall to claim they're the ones who got the timewalk, and not their opponents. Even moreso, you definitely don't get "Fucking timewalked." Even real timewalk is only a regular timewalk, not a "fucking" one. My play is the best one for the reasons I provided.
If you want to "love me forever" there's a team mentioned on p.51 dedicated to doing so. I suggest you join it.
Actually, what I would expect is for people to read what I actually say and then reply with criticisms. What I don't expect is someone to reply to something I didn't say and also make "you're wrong" remarks as a substitute for analysis. (e.g., I specifically said NOT to sacrifice the fetchland and I don't know how a Tundra is a more flexible play than a fecthland or how a Tundra offers your opponent less information) I don't see many calculations that suppose your opponent will more likely have a Duress in hand than a Wasteland when going into a blind match.
Also, by the way, if you use the end of turn Brainstorm you are banking on the probability that there will certainly be a blue card in those three cards otherwise your Force of Will is now dead. <-- See, this kind of analysis and discussion, not "You're wrong." Now I'm sure you have some calculation that states you will surely have a blue card in those three, but as someone much wiser and smarter than myself once said:
Anyway, I'm outta this thread. Nothing I could say could come close to the caculatory powers that be.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
Yeah, cause if you don't find a blue spell, then you put FOW back. That's why you don't lead fetch.
I don't know why you bother to pretend you have a reason to be offended. It'd be one thing if you admitted you were wrong and I still continued to criticize you meaninglessly, but as far as I can see, you still think you're right. This is what it means to debate.
Also, why do you bother to state you're 'outta this thread?' Is that an elaborate way of thinly veiling the phrase "I concede?" It's like strictly worse for you than leaving saying nothing, cause in both cases you never post again (wash) but in the present case you look like an idiot if you ever post again.
Well if I was playing an actual tempo deck then I could afford to do that and it would be fine for me. and I would have jumped ahead , as you are still only left with 6 cards and I would have 7. its like you get to know what the top 10 cards of your deck are in exchange for a blue card , a land , and a fetch. you are out 3 cards , and I am out 1 , and I know the top 8 of my deck. you've modelled the shell of your deck after a aggro/control deck , but do not play it like one, so what is the point ?
And if I played anything with chalice and dropped that @ 1 instead of wasting you , you would be fucked too. as you would only have 11 blue sources left in your deck to pitch to the force. and if one wasnt pulled off the brianstorm it would be game over. getting rid of the option to cast force for free is a bad idea , what kind of pilot are you.
The kind that wins?
What is this, IRC? Temporarily moved to the Douche Tank forum, fucking cuz...
Last edited by Bardo; 04-24-2010 at 12:32 PM.
Moved back to Established. If you're wondering about the funky smell in this thread, remember that it spent a night in the (hidden) Douche forum.
To all - Be cool, be kind or get the fuck off this site. Thank you.
If you have a beefy hand, why would you use the brainstorm t1? Considering that you have fine t2,t3, and t4 plays, wouldn't it be better to hold the brainstorm for force backup, and if that doesn't get used save up 2 dead cards and than shuffle them away late game?
No. Because if you don't hit another.blue card you can shuffle the.force away. Also it could by brainstorming reveal stronger plays that are dependant on the matchup. Maybe we need a swords. Maybe wayfayer is key. Maybe mom. Against aggro decks the force is basically dead. To qoute south park...why don't you get it man...please just get it....lol gay fish episode. I happen to be watching it and lolz at how.it was relevant.
Best play in magic: Tundra, vial, - Force vial-Daze force...I win.
Tundra, go is flagrantly correct. Wasteland is only good if it prevents you from casting spells or if it sets you back on mana development while you are being attacked along another axis. If the other guy Wastes you, whatever; first, you are going to have to expose a dual for Waste and potentially lose the ability to cast Avenger regardless. Second, you can Brainstorm away the Avenger. Third, that Wasteland does straight nothing for your opponent.
(incidentally, if you are automatically Wasting on the draw, you're probably doing it wrong)
You don't want to play the Strand because you'll be casting Mystic on turn two and the shuffle effect is valuable. Your entire hand is gas, so you aren't maximizing Brainstorm if you just cast it on one. You are in particularly bad shape with the Brainstorm line if you draw two bad cards and can only shuffle away one. Similarly, if you Strand into Mystic, your Brainstorm sucks until you find a shuffle effect.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
He says that he is on the play against an unknown opponent, so if your opponent gives away what he is on his turn 1 perhaps you should dig. But if he plays a fetch and says go, I would think you should keep your bs. I suppose the situation proposed by leiweiling doesn't give you enough information about what you should do at the end of his opponent's turn.
Last edited by Draener; 04-24-2010 at 03:52 PM. Reason: punctuation
My apologies but if he waste on the draw you b storm so you can either find a second white land or a blue card. I really don't see how this is a question. Tundra pass is the obvious play. Anyone who does otherwise needs to test more. Also your opponent could be playing stifle then the fetch is irrelevant anyways. Most decks wasting on the draw if we have two lands in hand and a b storm are gonna loose anyways. If they are running both waste and stifle they would much rather stifle then waste turn one.
Best play in magic: Tundra, vial, - Force vial-Daze force...I win.
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