Ah I think you misunderstand me. I agree with you that tundra pass is the correct play. I was referring to if the opponent in this match were to also say fetch, go, that brainstorm at end of turn would not be the optimal play.
If you end up playing against storm or reanimator, you might just have gotten rid of your most relevant card (Read: Force) in the case that brainstorm did not hit a blue card.
You have a good point that kneejerking the brainstorm at EOT might put you in a bad position. I think my advice is more directed towards matchups like zoo, tribal decks, where time matters. I even said not to kneejerk brainstorm against control, but that might have to be extended to aggro control.Originally Posted by frogboy
I think Brainstorming in the dark is pretty bad against Zoo. I would prefer to have Force up. If you draw a land on turn two or three, sure, Brainstorm so you can shuffle away the land, but using Force to protect a Jitte turn seems way better than Brainstorming for no value (where value is getting rid of a blank) particularly when you can Brainstorm on turn three to stay more or less on curve assuming you play Mystic on two and Brainstorm on three if you've drawn blanks. Then you can either play Jitte and have a turn four of equip, Avenger or you've drawn creatures and you're just crushing him at that point anyway.
Maximizing value obviously only becomes more important the less aggressive your opponent is. Do you want to Brainstorm against Threshold? What are you even worried about? You can always get rid of Force later when it is more apparent that it is unnecessary.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Here's a little tournament report of my second attempt at owning with this deck. My first one was a failure. (1-2-0)
I played a pretty much standard list with 3 Fathom Seer, 3 Vials, 3 SP and 1 Vexing Sphinx because I found out in my testings that you never want to see a second one.
The first round was not too tough. I won against a BW Suicide/Deadguy deck in a rather narrow fashion, but still I got the Win. The deck's threats were Tombstalker and Bitterblossom.
Second round I was up against Landstill. I think I waited a little too long with scooping against his Jace 2.0 and Shackles in game 1. But since he didn't have many Lifepoints and my Mother of Runes protected my dudes from Jaces Unsummon ability I figured I could do it. Especially because he only had 2 Islands left in play after several Wayfarer actions. But he kept drawing into more Removal so I scooped to spare a little time for game 2. At that point we had about 25 minutes left in the round I think.
I boarded in 3 Aura of Silence and 1 Thorn of Amethyst, but I couldn't have cared less because my deck refused to show them to me in game 2.
ALTHOUGH i was using Wayfarer almost consistently from turn 5 till the end of the round...
In the end he was on low life, had Shackles and Elspeth out which were facing a bunch of creatures and 2 Vials on my side.
I had the Vexing Sphinx to carry my Jitte (2 counters) and during my upkeep my opponent decided to steal my Sphinx with Shackles.
Unfortunately I did not know that Shackles checks the creature's power twice (when activating and when resolving the ability) and so I refused to pump my Sphinx in response to the activation of Shackles and therefore win the game immediately. He still died though. So it was all cool.
Well at least for a draw.
In the third round I faced a MWC Deck with Humility, Moat, Ghostly Prison and Story Circle which plainly raped me. I think there was nothing I could do to stop him from doing that. Last up was an Enchantress Deck which I killed easily. Game 1 on the back of Wayfarer+Wasteland and game 2 obviously due to my Aura of Silence.
So I end up with a somewhat satisfying score of 2-1-1.
Played Saint-Petersburg Open, 34 players pooped up, 6 rounds with top8.
Round1. MonoG Progenitus Survival. I lose game1 to Survival, win game on back up of 3 FoWs and is able to Shards the Progenitus in game3, which lets me win 2-1.
Round2. Tempo Thresh. I punt game2, but other thant that, the games were easy. 2-1
Round3. Mirror with kremenchugsky. I get jitte both games, which gives me quite a lot of advantage. 2-0. I'm still not sure, how the mirror should be played out.
Round4. UBW faerie fish (suboptimal build). I trump it easy 2-0
id + id
And lose in top8 to my Round1 opponent. Game 1. I get some real clock going (3 Avengers and Sphinx, and he also has a ton of creatures and mana elves) but lack counter magic and removal. My jitte gets removed by Viridian Zeallot. He casts Order (and I know that I can race Progenitus) into... Spike Weaver. Ouch. I so wish I had at least an StP. Then next turn casts second Order. I'm out.
Game 2 I FoW the survival, but he applies a lot of pressure on me with some guys, Nature's Claims my Vial, Wastelands my Tundra (I'm left with one Plains and second Vial). I almost stabilize on 2 life, but he gets to topdeck yet another Order. Arrgh!
I'm looking for some cards to hose Survival of the Fittest engine and Natural Order. Would you suggest anything?
Aven Mindcensor does the job..
Anyway, survival engine is hard to deal with. You got a problem siding cards out for the aura's and gravehate i guess?
Hi, I'm new here, but not new to Magic.
I read through some of this thread, but it looks like the deck has evolved since the first iteration on the first post. I'm trying to understand how Fanthom Seer would be played. Can you use it with Aether Vial counters = 3? Also, when would one pay its morph cost? I presume Fathom Seer is not something you pay the morph cost until you have at least 3 lands on the battlefield. Thanks.
You cant play fathom seer for its morphcost through vial.. (for 2 as a normal 1/3 creature can, ofcourse, like any other creature).
You unmorph it when you can play a returned land after it. So turn 3, 3mana, bounce 2, draw, go. is not the way to go.
If you had nothing better to do on your turn3, you could play him as a morph, go. And next turn, float 2, bounce lands, replay a land, do something usefull.
Just some examples.. play some games with it and you will get to know the card better!:)
Moonlight, thanks for the insight on Fanthom Seer. I will have to play with the card to understand how it works in this deck.
Thanks for the discussion everyone! You guys brought up a lot of things I hadn't thought of...
Played another 2 tournament with the deck. Tryed Vexing Sphinx and Vendilion Clique, also played with metagame modified sideboard (Wing Shards, Hibernation, Hydroblast, Meddling Mage, Faerie Macabre, Disenchant).
1) went 1-1-2 on Friday FNM.
Draw 1:1 with MonoU control. Lost 1st game to resolved Vedalken Shackles #2, won second (also with a battle over Shackles), run in time in therd (I was winning).
Draw 1:1 with UW Tempo (Tinefol). Not very easy to understand the mirror. Once I was owned by Wing Shards.
Won 2:0 with New Horizons (Mother of Runes and land destruction was the key).
Lost 0:2 to Stacker. First game he landed first turn Chalice (really hurts with no FoW), second I have a mull, and still a slow hand, while he has plenty of mana, and slows me down with Prison and Trinisphere. Anyway, I was still beating him, but a resolved Armageddon was gg.
2) went 3-3 on Saint Petersburg Legacy Open
Won 2:0 with goblins. Serra + Jitte owned him.
Won 2:0 with Ichorid. Grunt + Jitte + gravehate (Macabre this tournament)
Lost 0:2 to UW Tempo (Tinefol). Jitte really shined for him, and 2nd game I was stacked on 3 lands with 2 Jittes in hand, while he landed his Jitte and Aura.
Won 2:0 with ANT. 1st game I ruin his lands and beat, so he forced to start in 4 HP. 2nd I had 2 Wastelands, Brainstorm, Mom, Vial and Clique with no counters, kept (wanted to buy time with Wastes, land Mom, try to draw Meddling Mage which shines combined with Mom, and than to land Vendilion). Unfortunately, I sucked aftted BS (crap, and no shuffle-effects), and he easily went-off 3rd turn in 17. One chance out of 100 -- he was VERY unlucky and managed to kill himself, non showing ANY land or 0-mana spell).
Lost 1:2 to BW Pox. 1st game he ruins all my lands (2 Wastelands, Sinkhole, Smallpox, Vindicate), kills Wayfarer so that I didn't have a chance to abuse it, and finish me with Tombstalker (i had Serra, but no Mom). 2nd game I manage to make Wayfarers work, and won pretty easily. 3rd kept bad hand, landed a Jitte, but never had a chance to equip. Tombstalker finished me, as I didn't manage to find any land in 3 cards, to sword it.
Lost 1:2 to MonoGreen Survival. Fisrt game I play Vendilion Clique, taking out Natural Order, but he draws Survival off the faerie, ouch! 2nd 2 Meddling Mages, Serra Avenger and Hibernation finish him. 3rd game his starting 3 turns were 3 Llanowar Elves with a single Forest and Gaea's Cradle. I sworded first 2 elves, and decided to FOW 3rd one, but he managed to topdeck 2nd forest to land Survival, so to cast all his hand and find anything to finish me. Wished I topdecked Daze, Meddling Mage or Disenchant / Aura after forcing 3rd elf.
Last edited by kremenchugskiy; 04-28-2010 at 03:11 AM.
Why are people boarding in aura against survival?
1. Some survival builds (Not survival elves probably) can find eternal witness.
2. Survival only gets them one extra creature a turn. That's enough to warrant like a force of will, but not enough to run deadweight where you might actually lose *even if they don't get survival* just because you're running dead stuff.
3. Meddling mage is bad
4. Vendillion clique is bad (It doesn't seem like this cost you many games though.)
It's worth noting that vendillion clique is almost good. A 3/1 flying flash is probably worth like 1U, and then U for the disruption ability isn't terrible. (Although I definitely wouldn't pay U for that disruption ability.)
Were it a 3/3, it would have made the cut, but at 3/1 it doesn't even block well.
I won't repost my sideboard list, because I recognize there are situations where you may not want to run my exact sideboard, depending on metagame, and then the sideboarding plans become useless if you change the sideboard. But I do think you should reconsider clique and meddling mage. I can't imagine a metagame where those are better than other alternatives, like ethersworn canonist, thorn of amethyst, etc.
Another common misconception is the usefulness of aven mindcensor.
My recommendation is don't get too creative. There's only like 1 or 2 fudge spaces maindeck, and about 4 fudge spaces in the sideboard. I don't suggest editing what I have in the maindeck slots, and I suggest only editing the sideboard slots if your metagame calls for it. If something is questionable about a sideboard plan (You should know your own plans) you should ask about it before playing.
In fact, if you want, you can post your list and sideboard before playing at a tournament, along with sideboarding plans that are relevant for your metagame, and I will comment on if yours are good ideas.
That being said, the suggestions in this thread are starting to get closer. I still think sphinx is by far the best, but since I don't know every magic card in existence, I'll let you know if I think one of your suggestions are better. For now, though, I'm still sticking with sphinx. The flying clock I get out of this deck is just too good to pass up on, and the filtering is pretty great too.
I run standard maindeck with 1 Sphinx.
I'm 4-2 against monoG Survival. I'm 0-2 against BGWSA.
I think the latter one is scarier, here are the lists
Both are certainly winnable, I even have a positive record against first. The thing is - I don't like losing to Survival or Natural Order. Its like losing to combo preboard, when they Duress your only counter and go off. This doesn't happen too often, but it feels so painful and unfair. When I lose to Zoo, it at least feels fair.// Lands
15 [ALA] Forest (3)
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle
// Creatures
1 [UL] Ticking Gnomes
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [TO] Basking Rootwalla
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [M10] Llanowar Elves
3 [US] Priest of Titania
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
1 [UD] Masticore
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [EX] Spike Weaver
1 [SH] Spike Feeder
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
2 [ROE] Vengevine
// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [VI] Natural Order
// Lands
3 [A] Savannah
3 [B] Bayou
3 [ALA] Forest (3)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [MR] Plains (1)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
// Creatures
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [GP] Orzhov Pontiff
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [7E] Birds of Paradise
1 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [PLC] Big Game Hunter
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
These decks are run by two high rated and strong players. I think that running specific sideboard cards against these decks is justifiable - here and there you could get away against weaker players running less sideboard hate, but against serious opponents I want something better than to rely on them not getting survival or order (or doubles of these), or me having (multiple) FoWs. Not to mention, since they're good, I'm bound to get paired against them on high tables. That actually already happens.
Pretty much what I want is a dead solid sideboard plan against these decks. Much like what Canonist does to combo. I'd be willing to devote as much as 6 sideboard slots, in the addition to the 1-2 relics I already board in.
So far I'm considering 3-4 Aven Mindcensor, and 2-3 Wing Shards, the latter also being solid against Zoo and some aggro decks. I like Wing Shards so far, I think it deserves its slot
As for Aven Mindcensor, I know its questionable. Only because of the above decks did I test 1 maindeck. It seemed to work when I was paired against Survival. Then I read you reasoning about it being bad. I was convinced - it sucks.
But what I've wrote above still holds true. I'd probably run the BAD cards which are good against best (strongest) player in the area and his deck. I'd like to hear your take on the problem: what if you're facing the above Survival decks (or any survival decks for that matter) and you get to name any 6 magic cards to board in.
I'm not sure that Aven Mindcensor is the best option there, but it looks like it is. Certainly that isn't Artifact/Enchantment hate (like needle or aura), because it sucks if they don't get Survival, and sucks because they already run maindeck (and board in more) artifact/enchantment removal. Disenchant? Spell Snare? Counterspell? Annul? Meddling Mage? I think these don't make the cut.
I think a lot of matches are being lost because your sideboard cards are actually worse than maindeck card. It's not proper to bring in, say, a card that hoses the card you lost to game one. If you bring something in, it better be GFG, cause the maindeck is solid as a rock. For a good rule of thumb, it better be about like what BFT does to goblins, or else your maindeck cards are probably better.
Well, from my experience, I only lost this match to a resolved Order (this almost always spells gg) or early-to-midgame Survival. Not once did I lose when I could counter or they didn't have it. From the weakest maindeck cards I can mention Daze. They almost always have BoP or Elves anyway and if they don't they never play the mentioned cards into it (or anything that matters). I think I'd rather run Spell Snare there.
Are there any GFG cards? What would you board in? What do you think of Wing Shards?
I' ve been toying for a time with W/U tempo and actually have some questions/suggestions for it:
-Spell Pierce, I know the mana denial engine works wonders with those but actually Legacy has very popular creature-based decklist nowadays, which most aver vrey powerful and actually can be a hard match up for W/U tempo. I' ve decided aftar some testing to swap those for 2x Spell Snare, this is basically because in provides (as a maindeck card) from a wider list of threats bieng one of the most freared Qasali pridemage (which is heavily played in both Zoo and Bant, 2 of the top tier lists nowadays), it also stops Stoneforge Mystic (which is gaining popularity and can also hose your hole strategy bringing just one of the 2 big swords, or even jitte to destroy yours), it also stops Goyf, COunterbalance, Infernal tutor, burning wish, survival of the fittest, among others.
-Lightning greaves is also a great addition for main deck, I' m actually not runing it because it would count as a blue card slot (I would add it instead of the 4th daze I m playing right now) and the deck is short on blue cards, which actually cutting one more could make FoW even more difficult to Pitch, but having a hasty-shrouded mother of runes, weathered wayfarer or even serra avenger is really cool for this deck.
-I haven' t tested much against Merfolks, if anyone did, would you be so kind to give me some insight? Is the game hard? You have some good stuff to battle it, being one of the great fathom seer (avoiding island walk if played wisely), then jitte and mother of runes. But anyway Islandwalk seems like a big issue for U Tempo decks, also the fact that their little folks grow with the lords and oir creatures are quite small could be a problem. Any experience with that?
-For the side I' ve thought to use 3x Harm's way instead of the burrenton, it may seem weird but actually it'' s a good tempo tool that can fit not only against zoo + goblins (where burrenton is strictly better) but also against bant and other aggro based decks (it could also be kind of useful against aggro loam, keeping Seismic assult control or helping to kill a large monster chumpblocking). What do you think?
-And one lat thing, why not adding some Spellstutter sprite, it goes completely with game philosophy, it' s an spell that can bear jitte while countering big amount of threats: SDT, StP, Dark ritual, Noble hierarch, brainstorm, even ponder, nacatl, almost any nasty spark, ... I find her nice in the deck.
Thanks for bothering,
greetings,
Iņaki.-
Spellstutter sprite... sounds nice, but what to cut? Spell pierce? idk...
For the Vexing Sphinx slot... I'm not really happy with the sphinx, so decided to try some other cards
Probably the best I saw was this:
Aven Mimeomancer - 1WU
Creature - Bird Wizard
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a feather counter on target creature. If you do, that creature is 3/1 and has flying for as long as it has a feather counter on it.
3/1
The low thoughness makes it scary to run... but somehow helps when facing tarmogoys (you can actually kill them and not just give protection to block) or at finishing the opponent (fathom seer becomes a thread).
It doesn't seem like it's the best addition but... what are your thoughts?
Where did you find those lists? Who are these "strong players" you speak of. I'm just curious.
Also I have a few more questions.
-Why is sphinx, fathom seer, weathered wayferor in this deck?
Doesn't Bant just offer better creatures? I.E. Knight of the reliquary, qasali pridemage, and well you know tarmogoyf? I mean sure this deck hozes them with jotun grunt and mother; but isn't it kind of embaressing to get destroyed by a well times ee at 1, or 2? oh mu gosh ee at 2 in the mid game just equals death...
These lists are played by two players in top5 in Russian eternal rating.
And I'll just add my questions: why isn't there Ad Nauseam draw engine in the deck? Or Mystical Tutor, Dark Ritual, or, you know, Tendrils of Agony? I'm just curious. Oh noes, well timed ethersworn canonist will destroy that deck! I'm embarassed, really.
I'm already playing tht instead of the 2 Sphinxes, and when it boarded on the ground on a position of stasis or when I was behind the race, he always helped me to get it. It's also a powerhouse in combo with Mother of Runes. which will block any weenie and kill them instead o acting like a simple fog effect. Of course it also nets board advantage if paired with Jitte, and he's blue as well.
The only thing i regret about him is that he doesn't have flash, but we can't have anything.
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