HilariousOriginally Posted by lordofthepit
I like legacy, i don't want a new overextended whatever, i was only trying to suggest one way we can keep the majority of our card pool, but thanks for the sarcasm, i mean i was obviously trying to contact wizard with their only option because i hate duals. My god, did you ever think its attitudes like your that hamper legacy growth?
I'd rather ban fetches, honestly. People who say they like playing Legacy because they always liked their duals are being a bit disingenous since the lands having a land-type never factored into play back in the day; the duals play completely differently now. Fetches are also part of the reason all the new lands suck in comparison.What if they just ban all the original Dual lands in legacy?
If fetches went (besides giving blue a kick in the junk) it would mostly turn the duals into a prestige item, rather than a necessary item. I think decks like Bant could still survive just fine (ponder/brainstorm would find the necessary lands in time) and it's not like anyone is playing 4-5 color landstill like people were a few years back. We'd have to see if wasteland would become too powerful or if Dragon Stompy was lucksacking too many games though.
If fetchlands were gotten rid of, land destruction decks like Tempo Thresh would be significantly weakened.
Also, it make less sense to ban fetches when they have neo-printed them 1 set ago. If the economic situation become unsustainable, i could see the duals go. But i don't think anyone would like that.
I apologize for the tone of my earlier post. To put it nicely, I think your is a very narrow-minded one, but I'll dignify it with a response without being sarcastic. Here's why it is ill-advised and why I hope Wizards doesn't take it seriously:
1) Dual lands allow for greater diversity of decks. This much is obvious, and it is largely for this reason that Legacy has the healthiest metagame and why its tournaments have the biggest turnouts.
2) Dual lands are one of the defining features of Legacy, if not the most defining feature. Your suggestion that they ban dual lands from Legacy because you don't like them, but still want to play cards like Force of Will, would be like me asking for Wizards to create a new format because I don't want like Power 9, but want to play Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Will. And on top of that, getting rid of the existing Vintage format. Can you imagine that suggestion going over well at all?
3) You are asking to narrowly tailor their policies to your preferences, which are not representative of the Legacy community. Obviously, they can't please anybody, and your opinion would be controversial to say the least among people who play Legacy. Earlier this decade, when control formats dominated Vintage, many players asked Wizards to ban Islands because they didn't like them, and some were only half-joking. You can't see why that would be a problem?
4) There is no precedent to banning mana producing lands, outside of obviously broken ones like Tolarian Academy and Mishra's Workshop, and dual lands are clearly not in that category. In fact, if anything, it would be more reasonable to ADD an exception to allow dual lands in a format in which A/B/U/R cards are generally not legal, which is what they did with Extended when Revised rotated out about 10 years ago.
5) Price is not a reason to ban cards. Although Wizards considered the secondary market to some extent when creating the ban list for the new Legacy format (when separating T1.5 from T1), they have never used price in their decision on which cards to ban. Otherwise, there are many cards that would go well before the Duals: Moat, Tabernacle, most of the P3K cards, along with a host of others. In fact, the desire you expressed to continue playing with Force of Will (which I assume you own) is entirely inconsistent with this because Force of Will is more expensive than half of the duals (the non-blue ones minus Taiga).
6) Wizards should avoid regulating the secondary market. Even if you do ban on the basis of price, you've now created a slippery slope, the 10c commons format that I alluded to being the obviously extreme. If you ban the duals, and shocklands are now $20-40 a piece, do you now screw over players who have their shocklands in addition to those who have their duals? I'm not exactly Adam Smith, but I do think Wizards meddling in the secondary market would compromise the trust of the community.
7) Legacy is thriving as a format. I do acknowledge that the rising prices of Legacy staples may eventually be a problem, but it is currently as popular as it's ever been and continuing to grow. In fact, there are more than enough duals to allow the format to continue to support more growth, as I alluded to in a previous thread. With a total of 3 million dual lands available, and the average deck WITH dual lands averaging about 5-6 duals, not to mention all the decks that don't require dual lands, Legacy can support well over a million decks, which is orders of magnitude more than the format needs to be "healthy".
Now, there is still a prohibitive barrier to entry: 12-year-old Johnny or homeless Billy Joe Bob may not be able to afford to own their own Countertop Legacy deck, but that's inherent in the very nature of collectible card games. Fortunately, they're welcome to play underpowered, to borrow decks, or to play other formats like Standard, Extended, Limited, Pauper, Peasant, Singleton, or even this hypothetical "Overextended" format.
It's the fetches that are inspiring the economic situation though: it doesn't matter that you can get the new ones for $10 a pop, they're the reason why Underground Sea is 10x better than Sunken Ruins. Take fetches away and there's about four different competing ways to build a fairly solid manabase and then maybe the tempo loss of shard-trilands becomes almost bearable. Thus the original duals would become more of a vanity item (although often still optimal) than a requirement to play in the format.Also, it make less sense to ban fetches when they have neo-printed them 1 set ago. If the economic situation become unsustainable, i could see the duals go.
I'm not advocating this, just saying that it's an option, especially if players are MOST wed to the idea of duals = legacy.
OTOH, maybe that's an untruth and players are REALLY wedded to the idea of duals as they've functioned since 2002.
In which case, that "compelling" aspect of the format is really only half as old as a lot of legacy fans like to pretend it is.
Jesus Christ, can we just lock this thread already? We're starting to go in circles.
Post #144:Post #267Indeed, you're chasing your tail.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
Regarding the talk about banning duals in Legacy, does anyone have any idea how many Ravnica duals exist and how much better the availability would be than revised duals?
@ lordofthepit: thank you, for the corrected, substantial and polite address to my suggestion. You make valid points, yet one thing i want to stress is that I am not advocating no Duals, or even hate duals,its not my preference; just ask yourself the question what format would you rather play; Dual-less Legacy or Overextended? Obviously the answer is "leave legacy alone," but if overextended is a seriously considered option, then Legacy is in trouble, and if that is true i would rather have it Dual-less than it lose support and popularity to the hypothetical format
Hardy har har har.Post #144:
Post #267
Indeed, you're chasing your tail.
Seriously, though. In the 123 posts between the two posts that I have made, there has been nothing new brought to the table. This entire thread consists of "NO FOW MEANS STORM WILL BE BUSTED" and "LETS JUST BAN THE DUAL LANDS" and "NO WAI I WANTS MAH DUAL LANDS".
All anyone is going off of is a post by a guy on Salvation with no credibility and an episode of The Magic Show that got its information from that same post. The more you idiots keep adding to this urban legend, the bigger it's going to grow, until the marketing people at WotC actually do take notice, and then they'll probably do just the oposite of what everyone is suggesting and fuck things up even more. Just let it rest.
If those were the two options, I think I'd prefer dual-less Legacy, but I think while Overextended will take away from the Legacy crowd, it wouldn't do so in any amount significant enough to hurt the format precisely because so many people like their dual lands. I think I'd also prefer to sell out of the game and play casual exclusively with my friends over MWS before I allow either to happen though.
Thanks for clarifying your point though. I incorrectly assumed you wanted to ban duals just for the sake of doing so, but I think that your assumption that the format will either be "Legacy without duals or Overextended" is incorrect--or at least I hope so for the sake of the format! I have some confidence that Wizards will do the right thing though--they once sanctioned an "Extended plus duals" format precisely because people liked their duals so much, so I can't see them doing basically the opposite with a "Legacy minus duals".
What I don't understand is why some people seemed threatened by the talk of another format as if it will replace Legacy. Formats are played because they are fun or because they are necessary to qualify for the Pro Tour... how many people do you think play for the latter reason? Even though Extended is a promoted format, it has seen declining popularity over the years, so what does that tell us about the potential decline of Legacy? If people like Legacy, they'll play it; if they don't, they won't. Simple as that. I'm not a devoted follower of any one format and it's kind of silly to be. If the format is good and you enjoy it, play it.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
I don't know about that. For me it would take away a lot of the fun if Wizards wouldn't support Legacy as an official format anymore. I mean, I would still like it but I wouldn't, if you get what I mean. I'll never be on the pro tour but I love the competitiveness of official tournaments. And I'm sure as hell not going to keep expensive cards like duals just to play magic at my kitchen table. If they decide to drop Legacy there's a big chance I quit magic as a whole (well I'd still be playing peasant). I don't play any other formats apart from an occasional draft and pre-releases. Would you still trust Wizards in anything they do in the future if they'd decide to drop Legacy (or any other format)? I won't.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Well, EDH has been gaining popularity and obviously that isn't DCI supported either. Formats don't necessarily need a Pro Tour season to be playable and fun. I guess it all comes down to motivation and why each individual plays what they play. For me, the day I give up my duals is the day they pry them from my cold, dead hands. I'll keep them for kitchen table Magic, no probs.
It depends what you mean by trust. I do trust them to some extent, because they have had a lot of experience and have managed to give us Legacy as it is today. If they were to drop it and they gave us another format equally fun, then sure, I would play.
Hard to say since this is speculation based on speculation.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
Yeah, and EDH decks used to cost like $5 to build.Well, EDH has been gaining popularity and obviously that isn't DCI supported either. Formats don't necessarily need a Pro Tour season to be playable and fun. I guess it all comes down to motivation and why each individual plays what they play. For me, the day I give up my duals is the day they pry them from my cold, dead hands. I'll keep them for kitchen table Magic, no probs.
It depends what you mean by trust. I do trust them to some extent, because they have had a lot of experience and have managed to give us Legacy as it is today. If they were to drop it and they gave us another format equally fun, then sure, I would play.
Hard to say since this is speculation based on speculation.
And its not necessarily that a new format would make legacy less fun and cause people to stop playing it. Its that even though legacy is at an all time high right now, the player base is too scattered. If 14 people show up at a store to play and 7 want to play legacy and 7 want to play hypothetical magic make believe, then there wont be enough to go either way and someone will have to give. All this format would do, would be to stretch a thin player base even thinner. So you can want to play legacy all you want, but if your store has FNM on fridays and cheap ass knock off format on saturdays, when will there be time for real legacy ?
Speculation is the shit.
I don't trust wizards at all. I know their main objective is to make money but its getting out of hand and I feel they only make decisions based on making more money. That's their right but they sure as hell do not listen to the players, they just pretend to do so. Inviting some key persons (not even players but card shop owners) to talk with like they did a while back is all just a publicity stunt if you ask me. They give us just enough to keep us happy but they don't do shit for us. And they're getting away with it. It's the same everywhere (politics, business) and we're the ones who are getting screwed anally. And we're happy to let ourselves being screwed (I'm no exception). Wizards is the Goldman Sachs of the collectible card game industry. You get mad at them, they throw you a bone and then continue do do what they've always done. Magic is like money, you need it to survive and really can't do without it
@Trans Am: you're absolutely right, that's exactly what's going to happen.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
@ Neils: Well, I have no idea what their profit margins are, but I disagree that I'm being screwed. It takes a lot of effort on their part to put out set after set and keep it interesting and exciting. If they make a bad set and no one buys it, then they're pretty much screwed. It is in their benefit/interest to make the product appealing, so I don't think it's as bad as you say. Theatre (cinema) tickets are crazy expensive, but people pay. People moan about the price of popcorn while stuffing their faces. It's entertainment. They provide a service and we buy it; no one is screwing any one... unless that is the service you're buying.
@ Trans Am: stop confusing the situation with reason and logic. Let me live in fantasy land about everyone playing every format.I would say it's definitely true for America/Canada/Australia that places are too scattered, but it seems some areas like in Spain, they have a flourishing eternal scene. Anyway, I see your point, but I still think it's a bit nuts to be so threatened by this hypothetical format considering it is an Extended replacement more than anything.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
Cough...
We pay because otherwise we'd really have a shitty life but does that mean they have to make that cinema ticket more expensive just because they can make more money out of it? I really don't understand why a company has to make 1 billion profit over our backs if they can make 500 million or even 10 million profit as well. Wouldn't we be happier society as a whole if people who do not make a lot of money (for whatever reason) could enjoy a movie night out as well? Wouldn't someone who makes a bit more money than that person be happier if he could enjoy a movie out AND take his girlfriend out for dinner afterwards, etc etc etc. Call me a socialist, call me a communist but these things really bother me especially since there's nothing I can do about it.@ Neils: Well, I have no idea what their profit margins are, but I disagree that I'm being screwed. It takes a lot of effort on their part to put out set after set and keep it interesting and exciting. If they make a bad set and no one buys it, then they're pretty much screwed. It is in their benefit/interest to make the product appealing, so I don't think it's as bad as you say. Theatre (cinema) tickets are crazy expensive, but people pay. People moan about the price of popcorn while stuffing their faces. It's entertainment. They provide a service and we buy it; no one is screwing any one... unless that is the service you're buying.
Oh look! A dead llama!
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
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