Court Hussar is clearly NOT the choice for the deck.
Fathom seer returns Islands at crucial times, mainly against merfolk. This greatly improves the matchup.
sometimes having a 2/2 morph becomes a beater.
If worst comes to worst, u can keep vial on 2 and just flash him out as a blocker or extra attacker.
He also draws you an extra card, screw looking one more deep and only getting one.
The drawing is also at instant speed which can be beneficial.
Concerning SSS: At 1 mana, there really isn't much we'd like to counter. Probably like swords, reanimate, lightning bolt, weathered wayfarer, mother of runes, and occasionally aether vial and that's it. A couple of these cards are found only only in UWT.
But even 1 mana spells are not a guaranteed counter, since SSS can be removed in response, which is one of its largest weaknesses. Almost half the time it's played against me, I end up coming up with the swords or using jitte counters to turn it off.
I really suggest conforming to the standard for now (I posted it a while back.)
I mean, I guess you figured out I'd suggest that, since I wouldn't be playing the list if I didn't think it was good. But I thought it might be worth re-emphasizing that if you get too creative, you'll probably end up making the deck significantly worse unless your metagame is pretty weird.
I should note that being a jitte-holder is not really a significant benefit. At 20 creatures we're not really desperate for any more jitte holders. I almost never find myself with jitte, but without a creature. Even finding myself creatureless is incredibly rare.
Haven't had a chance to actually play in any tournaments, but I've stopped by the shop a couple of times on legacy night and noticed that a bunch of people are now playing countertop+enlightened tutor ala aj sacher. Has anybody played or tested against this deck? It seems like a really bad matchup.
Matt played a round of 3 at our local shop yesterday. I don't know if he will write a report, but I didn't really get a chance to ask him why he is running the old school build with x1 Knight of the White Orchid. Is this a meta choice whether or not to play the Sphinx?
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Expect me or die. I play SI.
Tournament Report: 3-0. SI Pact (0), Dreadnought Variant (0), Ichorid (1). There were supposed to be four rounds, but the store closed earlier than expected. I ended up splitting 1/2.
Playing the old build on account of not having the cards. It's been outdated for a long time, but there's not a whole lot I can do about it. Nobody I know just carries Vexing Sphinx's around. I want to swap for Enlightened Tutors, but at least this time couldn't bring my trade material because I had to go to the tournament right after class.
Match 1 vs. Ben on SI Pact After some complicated shenanigans with setting up the pairings, I end up playing Ben, which sucks for him, as two tournaments in a row we end up getting paired off blind in the first round.
Game 1 He wins the roll, but isn’t happy with his 7. It ends up becoming 4. It doesn’t help him that I misered a Force of Will in my opening 7 and then when I put a clock down with turn 1 Wayfarer/Eager Cadet, turn 2 Knight of the White Orchid (white weenie for the win!), Ben has to try to go off into Spell Pierce+Daze and he’s out of gas.
Game 2 I have to mulligan, but I’m greeted by Island Wasteland, Brainstorm, Force, Swords, Thorn of Amethyst. WTF Yahweh loves me. Ben opens with Petal into Swarm. I don’t Force, thinking maybe I’ll miser the plains, but also that I’d be unprotected either way and Ben has some balls, so he won’t be scared out of an attempt because I forced the Swarm (especially after my mulligan to 6).
I don’t miser one of the 13 white sources, but with only 6 cards to work with and none of them permanent mana sources, Ben only has Petal pass.
I slap down Thorn of Amethyst and Ben groans. Xantid Swarm swing protects a topdecked Land Grant (costing him the petal), and he plays another Petal. I waste the Bayou, but I can’t do much either.
We play draw-go for a couple turns until I get a Plains, swords his Swarm, and then Enlightened Tutor for an Ethersworn Canonist and Ben scoops them up. Too much hate.
Match 2: Adam on Dreadnought Variant I don’t really know how to describe this variant. It’s Ubw with Vindicates, Wastelands, Stifles, Vision Charm, Tombstalker, Doomblade and Swords. I didn’t see Countertop or Stifle.
Game 1 I keep a weird hand, but it has Vial. I open things up with Knight of the White Orchid (which also gets a land), and I miser a Weathered Wayfarer a couple turns into the game and add a Serra Avenger to really get a clock going. He uses Swords on Serra Avenger, which is very questionable since Wayfarer gets 3 wastelands and 2 other lands this game.
Adam has Dreadnought + Vision Charm. I haven’t played against this before, but I can’t maximize my mana and play Swords around Daze. I end up passing with two lands open and then Swords on his Dreadnought at upkeep. He has another Vision Charm to protect it. I have a Force of Will, but also a second Swords, so I just wait another turn.
I’m still getting Wastelands off the Wayfarer and my opponent has started missing land drops, so I bully him back to two land with the Wastes. Swords is good against the Dreadnought, and Knight of the White Orchid keeps chipping away at his life.
I get down a Fathom Seer and he has to stifle the draw trigger. I ask for a hand count and discover my opponent has 2 lands in play and 1 card in hand and I have 4 creatures, jitte, vial, 6 cards in hand, and 4 lands out there. Good game as Wayfarer, Fathom Seer, and Knight of the White Orchid eventually knock him down to 0 life.
Game 2 I mulligan and my six is pretty awkward. I have two fetchlands (thankfully he has no Stifles and I’m not-retarded so I get basics), but he ends up with FOUR wastelands and I never see a third land, just Plains + Island all the way.
I again get a Vial out and a Jitte. Adam has two Engineered Plagues (first one spell pierced) and he shuts me out of Wayfarer and Mother of Runes. At least it’s not Dread of Night.
I vial Stoneforge Mystic. He sends it farming (it only has 1 power, but it could pick up Jitte counters). I vial Grunt. He does some math and realizes he has to use Doom Blade. I vial Serra Avenger. He has another Swords. I vial in second Grunt and he has another Doom Blade. I vial Stoneforge Mystic and he’s out of answers. SFM charges up Jitte, and Serra Avenger joins the party to face off against two Tombstalkers. But I already had 2 charge counters on the Jitte, so it was > all. The game lasts a bunch more turns as he does the math right on all blocks, but he can’t answer the Jitte and it goes the distance.
At the end of the game, I say, “Well, if you’re wondering about a topdeck, I have *show him three force of wills and three backup blues*” Adam says, “I had that covered *shows me three force of wills and two backup blues*”
That was probably why the game lasted so damn long, we just had nothing but countermagic.
Match 3 vs. Kyle on Ichorid-less He was my ride down and we’d played some practice games before. I was 1-2 for game 1s.
Kyle wins the die roll and we both keep, but he’s going for DDD (draw discard dredge) and doesn’t do anything with his turn 1. My hand is Mom, triple Avenger, three land. I’m really happy that he’s DDDing in this situation, since it gives me more time.
I run out the Mom and he gets some Narcos and repitches the Dredger.
I play land, pass. Kyle dredges into an Imp, a Bloodghast and a Dread return, but no bridges and only one Therapy. He plays a City of Brass to get a Bloodghast back.
I have land, pass again. Kyle dredges the Imp, and again fails to hit a big dredger (he hits only one Dakmor) or a Bridge, though he’s starting to load up with his other goodies. He swings with his narcos and Bloodghast and Mom takes out his Bloodghast and taps to live. I think he was planning to just play another land, but he checks his yard and realizes that low on Dredgers he wants to keep the DDD plan open. He doesn’t run out another land and goes for Careful Study, but I hardcast a Daze to gain massive tempo.
Since I just have a Mom out, he’s not too worried, but my turn is land, double Avenger and from 18 life, he’s facing a serious clock. His turn he does the only thing he can: Dredge Dakmor, but it’s pretty heroic. He hits a pair of GGTs, and that’s critical because at his endstep, Kyle discards a Bridge from Below (apparently he had multiple of these in hand).
My turn is Jiquip an Avenger. On his turn, he has another really nice Dredge, but it’s a turn too late as I’m able to sac my mom to burn his Bridges and then after the next crack back, I’m threatening lethal and he only has two Bloodghasts to work with and he has to kill me that turn. His dredge isn’t that miraculous, and we’re off to game 2.
Game 2: I keep a pretty nice looking hand but without any of my 11 hates. Two Brainstorms, though they don’t end up seeing any hate either. Sad face. Kyle has a crazy-fast hand considering he started with pass into DDD (again), including a Miser’s Breakthrough try with Imp as the only Dredger in the yard. The last dredge from Imp is a Dakmor Salvage. Dakmor reveals GGT, which fetches another Imp and a crazy amount of gas.
I have a few turns where I can still win if I rip hate, but it’s not to be. I note that he boarded in Force of Wills and Chain of Vapors, so probably Relic would be better than Wheel in this game. Also, one advantage of not drawing any hate is that Ichorid has no idea what to expect game 3.
Game 3 my hand is Mom, 2x BFT, Jitte, two land, something. Like Brainstorm. I’m on the play, so I think I’m in pretty good shape. For the third game in a row, he passes into DDD (though this time he’s from the draw, so it’s a bit better this time). I go for Jitte and I think the game, but he has the Force of Will. Nice tech!
I dump my other 1/1s, waste his land, and draw into Enlightened Tutor. I think about going for Wheel, but I saw that he had Chain of Vapors, so I want to get Relic. He also sets up a massively deep dredge of of Coliseum, but BFT burns two of his bridges in response to Therapy so he can’t combo out. Enlightened Tutor gets Relic and Kyle’s stuck without really anything to do since he can’t get more guys. I blow the relic immediately to try and draw a useful card, and Kyle is stuck with one land in play and two bloodghasts. He can’t discard. He’s out of lands in hand. He starts trying to claw his way back up to 8 cards in hand, but Grunt and SFM for Jitte shut that down.
I have been a longtime U/W(/r) player.
I love this thread. Thanks a lot. I think it is very stimulating.
I'm wondering where all of the Meddling Mage hate is coming from.
I read about a really cool interaction that someone experienced on MWS where a Knight of the White Orchard was vialed in and insanity happened, but I think it's a little anti-sinergistic with wayfarer. I suppose it helps you abuse the morph/draw. But I'm wondering if three mana and not incurring the loss of tempo by returning lands could be better used to cast cheaper spells that give you more control or a bigger threat.
The ability of this deck to operate with little mana gives it a lot of strength though.
tbh if I were to adjust this list for myself I would probably go a little more control, but this has given me a lot of ideas. The abuse of wayfarer and the morph kinda reminds me of parfait land tax/scroll rack in a way. Dunno why but it's cool.
I'd probably drop SAvenger because it's just a beater and Meddling Mage can carry a jitte almost as well while chanting something like any of the bazillion wincon/removals spells out there. I guess I'd say that I think you want to either play agro or control. There's always a little wiggle room in Fish. This seems more agro to me.
I've played spellstutter sprite + ninja of deep hours and can vouch for it. But like a lost of things in magic it can stink having something that is only good sometimes. When you don't have a way to ninjitsu in, you're cursing ninja.
In regards to this deck's "draw engine", it has a lot of slots devoted to things like knight, wayfarer, morph. If you take those out for ninja + spellstutter, I'm not sure the deck performs better.
<3 stoneforge mystic + jitte
Great thread, keep it going!
The point with Serra Avenger is that, combined with Mother of Runes or even alone, she's fills both the roles of attacking and blocking in a great way. She can keep an army of critters on the other side of the table down while going on beating and taking away your opponent's life. She's the best card we can have against Merfolk and Goblins, since it's arguably bigger than any of them. She's a great Jitte carrier, and this deck desperately needs something flying to begin recovering the normal disadvantage given by the first turns, played in a defensive role against aggro/aggro-control (usually).Originally Posted by Octopusman
Meddling Mage is just not the same thing. Although its aility is interesting, he's just a 2/2 without flying, who taps himself to swing, and gets killed by a Loam lion or a Kird Ape. That's a control card. This deck needs aggro cards in that spot, because if you tune it in a whole controllish approach, you will just lose to fast aggro in Legacy. This deck is great because it's a complementation of strictly control/denial cards (the counter suite, Wasteland, Wayfarer), card advantage (again, Wayfarer and Morph lot of internal synergies and tricks with the stack, and strong anti-aggro measures (Mother of runes, Avenger, Jitte,Jotun, etc). It's a complete deck under this aspect.
Ninja and Stutter apart, one possible weakness I've found in this deck is that sometimes it just can't compete with aggro's speed, but also with a-say-g1 fast Phyrexian Dreadnought that comes down the first turns and you don't have the counter/Stp or he has counter backup. Plus, sometimes you feel the need for something to stall the game that does not imply the risk of being removed. Here is that I thought about Maze of Ith (crappy comments coming in 3..2..1).
The point is that Maze is obviously tutorable by Wayfarer, and if played as the 18th land (because honestly, I you can consider it as a further anti-.aggro card that fulfills the roleof the "jolly spot" everyone has in their lists), it completely hoses fast fatties, and most of all, the Exalted mechanic, which forced them to attack with a lone creature. Furthermore, it can be tutored and put down when you manage to recover from Zoo's early assault, and that's a card that can give serious problems to them.
Maze's most notable strength is that, nowadays, most of the tier1 don't play Wasteland, so it can be a great annoyance. Zoo, Countertop,and Bant do not. You can obiect that Merfolk does and so Canadian, but there are already pretty good matchups, and Maze is something totally unexpected, so that they could waste another land before it comes down, and in generalit could induce them to waste Stifles on it (given that Merfolk still plays Stifle).
I know that these argumentations could sound sloppy, but yesterday after having tested it in some games against MWS,all I can say is that it helped me enduring 16-lords Tarmo-Merfolks assaults, and also saved my ass from a t2 Marit Lage. It would suck if it were to be the 17th land instead of another mana source, but i feel comfortable playing it as the 18th land, which is okay for me. It has to be considered as a virtual spell, not as a land surely.
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Perhaps I will respond in a more detailed fashion later, but basically the point is maze of ith is really a land, although it does not act like one. This is the worst possible combination because it means we'll always have to have 3 lands in play to function, if maze is in play, which shuts down further wayfaring. It's also worth noting that it takes a lot for maze to be the best target, especially for a card that plays such a similar role to mom. (Which also hoses exalted.)
This deck's main problem without its sb seems to be reanimator. But without having done much testing, it's possible that the new emrakul lists are strong against it. I'm thinking about running 1 less curfew and running aether spellbomb.
I like Bagelface's justification for Serra Avenger. I wouldn't say it's drawback is too harmful, especialy if there is a chance for vial, but we mentioned fast agro being a toughy for this deck. SAvenger coming down later because you have no vial could be an issue. If I'm not using a utility creature, I just feel uneasy
when toughness is < 4. vigilance is nice since it provides blocking as well as attacks but mom herself can block most grounded foes (hell, even Mongoose). If flying is so important (and I agree w/ a jitte it's pretty gg), I might kick it oldschool and drop spiketail hatchlings in there. SAvenger doesn't pitch to FoW, is WW, and might not come out fast enough against agro.
I think it's great, especially after Bagelface's explanation. I just like to debate all sides and hopefully arrive at a place where I feel like the card choices have been made by educated decisions and empirical data, not entirely theoretical forum breeze-shooting.
I love mom but my biggest peeve is when they roast her in response. One of the best one drops ever though.
Lunch break over. Gotta run.
went 0-2 drop yesterday at shuffle. the meta was all out of whack almost completely made up of rogue decks.
round 1:38 lands. never saw gy hate, eventually just got EE locked
round 2: dreadstill. ran pithing needles (wayfere cries) and a complete set of EE to constantly keep angels off the board. almost won but third game my swords on his deadnaut was countered by "Not Of This World"!!! i mean wtf?????
round 3 i dropped thank god because i woulda lost to this guy running 4 jittes and a full package of fear critters.
overall it was so bizarre I couldnt even be upset.
Hehe, fun times.
Last wednesday, I lost to Trisomy 21 (0-2), drew against Merfolk feat. Control Magic (1-1) and lost to Bant Survival feat. Retainers/Emrakul. I actually scooped to Emrakul twice (0-2).
The deck really threw up in my face that day - in my first match, I did not see a single blue card in my first 25 cards, and was screwed on 1 land during my second, while my opponent packed double Vindicate and double EE. The afternoon went on like that. Yuck.
Not of this world secret tech in dreadstill. Spread the word.
I know this is U/W Tempo, but has anyone tried standstill in this deck
with anything interesting to say about it? Blue w/ Arther Vial kinda
begs the question why we're not running it. Is it because we'd rather spend three mana for a weenie and instant +1 instead of the (maybe) control and eventual (maybe) +2?
I find the fact that you can't vial out the
morph face down. Without FoW or Daze backup (though Daze might be useless by this point of the
match), I'd feel pretty self conscious about having to have three
land outand then tap outfor the morph.
Bus arrived. Gotta go.
also triple wasteland :P
info.ninja
Some more testing is done , which seems that is the most I can do for the developement of the deck since I m a real fan of Storm mechanichs (that 's why it could be strage to run this list in a tournament, thoug I think it's a super strong list).
Cards to consider that fit extremely well:
-Willbender: just 1x slot (maybe 2), but he just camouflage himself prefectly among the Seers and grants a huge tempo swing in most matchups, he is also an extra card for the low blue account.
-Karakas: for those who find reanimator extremely difficult matchup, one of this can turn the game around. I' m actually running it maindeck instead of the 2nd plains, though Im considering to keep the 2x Plains in maindeck for mana stability and move it to the side material.
-Abolish: this card is just born to fit in this deck, it 's a lot better tempo-wise than Aura of Silence, and it can always be hardcast if you don't have a plains at hand.
My Actual list looks just like the one in the very first post of this thread but:
Main:
-1x Plains
-1x Windswept Heath
-1x Knight of the White Orchid
-2x Spell Pierce
------------------
+1x Karakas
+1x Wasteland
+1x Willbender
+2x Spell Snare
Side:
-1x Jötun Grunt
-2x Aura of Silence
------------------
+1x Meddling Mage
+2x Abolish
I find Meddling Mage filling too many holes, he is just great against all the Loamish stuff and combo, also good against Ichorid and can stop that Natural Order randomness. He can also stop those one trick pony decks (Belcher, normally naming EtW, Dream halls, ....)
Greetings,
Iñaki.-
Main:
-1x Plains
-1x Windswept Heath
-1x Knight of the White Orchid
-2x Spell Pierce
------------------
+1x Karakas
+1x Wasteland
+1x Willbender
+2x Spell Snare
Side:
-1x Jötun Grunt
-2x Aura of Silence
------------------
+1x Meddling Mage
+2x Abolish
The lists that are played these days dont even run KotWO.. so if you want to run a willbender for that dude, sure! Funny wizard for sure.
+1x Wasteland seems unnessesary, you have weathered wayfarers. But Ive done some testing with the full 4 and it was allright too.. can see your point there.
Reanimator will reanimate Inkwell leviathan against us, so karakas is worthless against them :)
But when you are speaking about abolish, i just cant see what you want with them. The Aura's are extremely powerfull. Did you even test against enchantress, cbalance, ANT, staxx or whatever? I would suggest you do, because aura's are awesome :D
And jotun grunt is a flex spot in the side yes, although he is quite a nice beater, so exchange him for a creature that doesnt want to attack when you played it, seems wierd.
G2g now!
I can see the power of Aura of SIlence, they are huge of course, my explanation for the swamp is this:
-Stacks is not a tier 1 deck, neither is enchantres (I mean they could be strong in certain meta, but for being Tier one, has 1 to be strong and 2nd to be highly played), then the only real concern of Aura of silence will be CB-Top decks, and against hat having the posibility to break it as it comes into play whcih is the moment CB-Top can be more tapped is strong. Also Against any other decks with nasty artifacts as decks palying solid equipments (as SoFI/SoLS, both of which screws us badly), Abolish seems better since Aura could hurt nothing (specillay if they also play SFM), and being instant is an extra point. Just my 2 cts. Also the power of Aura against ANT is, IMHO, situational, I prefer mroe dedicated hate cards.
-About the punch Jötun gives the deck, well 1 extra Jötun won't give a real change in our punch power, and meddling mage as I told can cover some holes, it also helps against the decks mentioned above, and being blue is something to have into account IMHO.
Anyway thanks for you insight,
greetings,
Iñaki.-
I'm sorry. Could someone post the current iteration of the deck (again)?
I'd like to see the one without the KotWO.
You'll have to forgive me for constantly trying to make this more control and less agro. Have we already been over Ethersworn Canonist. We're not really casting more than one spell a turn. And we run Aerher Vial which of course is shining @ 2 in this deck. I'd like to see a Sideboard with the current list if there is one. Although you're arguring Abolish vs. Aura of Silence. There's a lot of room for interpretation IMO, but if anyone (pi?) has accumulated data regarding card choices I'm all ears. I do <3 my utility Grizzly Bears.
Sorry for redundancies. The battery is low on this thing and flipping through near 60 pages would have me without a phone in like 5 minutes.
I'd like to MWS test as soon as I rework my list... and make some headway on final projects for school and
find a new job! Ugh
edit:
So I went back and saw some stuff on Canonist.
I hate to make posts that contribute redundant information so sorry for that.
I'm going to go back and see the list that pi4 has somewhere in the 40s pages and if anyone is around MWS 10:40pm PST I'd like to test some stuff. I hate to sound like a scrub, but I play almost entirely paper magic and think I might need to load the new sets. Anyway...
Last edited by Octopusman; 05-03-2010 at 07:37 PM.
This deck wants to work as a card advantage machine. basically everything it packs turns out to provide either board or card advantage: see Mother of Runes and Jitte for the first, Wayfarer, Seer, Mystic for the others. The only exceptions are removals, aggro sticks and protection. We need a card to fill the 60th slot that covers these points:
-creates card advantage,or at least cycles itself, harmonically to the decks' strategy and philosophy;
-blue if possible, to increase the foW count;
-can operate fairly good against the bad matchups, i..e Zoo, Survival and Reanimator;
-maybe if it has a decent body (yes, it would be better if it was a creature) it would be better;
-if possible, to stay permanently.
-unexpected.
-so good that it is not totally dead in non aggro/aggro-control matchups.
You can see that Canonist does not manage to get most of this stuff.
Sphinx is what covers the majority of these ones, even if I dislike her because it seemed that I always 4x1ed myself when playing because of Stp/Path/Stifle losing not only lands and vials, but also Fows and dazes, and in general playing a pseudo burn or wall creature that stays on the board for 2 turns doesn't attract me a lot.
We can go on searching, but i doubt we'll find something better than Sphinx, unfortunately. We called Spellstutter, Ninja, Clique, Waterfront Bouncer, Mimeomancer, Stormscape Apprentice (yes, i was convinced of his power for a whole day), but to be honest none of these is really that great to justify its inclusion.
Your suggestion of Willbender is interesting, though. But i fear he's too slow in the matchups above, Zoo particularly.
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Trinket Mage?
-creates card advantage,or at least cycles itself, harmonically to the decks' strategy and philosophy; check
-blue if possible, to increase the foW count; check
-can operate fairly good against the bad matchups, i..e Zoo, Survival and Reanimator; check (fetch tormods)
-maybe if it has a decent body (yes, it would be better if it was a creature) it would be better; check
-if possible, to stay permanently. check
-unexpected. hmmm
-so good that it is not totally dead in non aggro/aggro-control matchups. check (fetch needle, vial)
I think the restriction you impose is pretty artificial but I will note that sphinx satisfies all of them except rarely the "stays permanently."
You have to understand that in a deck with aggro capabilities like this, 2 swings from it usually ends the game, and if it doesn't you cash in for 3 cards. It's kind of why while everybody else is scrambling to find the "60th card" or w/e, I've been kind of confused. I don't know why so much attention is being paid to work I've already done. The sideboard is much more flimsy and could use the manpower (to analyze the last 4 slots) but instead all that we seem to be discussing is something I already know, and have tried at length to help other people know as well:
Sphinx is awesome.
Play 1x if you're doubtful, and fill in with like KOTWO or something that used to be in an old list.
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