New Competitive Eternal Format Coming

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

[SNIP] For bitching about moderation, use PMs. For bitching about other issues, use the Angry Dome. ~Nihil Credo

This isn't even true.

Even if there was a new format it would begin at Ice Age.
Which is where Legacy probably should have started from anyway

[quadibloc]

The thing is, Wizards has the choice between saving Legacy or saving the value of the cards in the Reprint Policy.

So they choose to kill Legacy and destroy the value of the cards.

Makes no sense to me.

Well, this is why the idea of a new format to fill the role of Legacy in the larger Magic scene seems to make sense.

Not reprinting protects the value of the cards.

Not changing Legacy itself to ban cards protects the value of the cards.

Having the new format protects the value of other cards, cards not in the Reprint Policy, current cards rotating out of Extended.

The idea is not to push Legacy off a cliff, but leave it be, still supporting it, so that it just quietly fades away like Vintage, so that any effect a decline in the popularity of Legacy due to some cards being too expensive will have on lowering the value of those cards... will be gentle, and not Wizards' fault.

Even if there was a new format it would begin at Ice Age.
Which is where Legacy probably should have started from anyway

Beginning at Ice Age is an interesting idea. It doesn't bypass all the reserved cards, or even all the expensive cards (such as Mana Drain).

But I'm not against that idea, since I felt that a format starting from the beginning, but with expensive cards banned, would be a good idea; it would be a good thing if the less expensive cards on the Reserved List had their chance to rise in value a little too.

[kkoie]

What exactly is the significance of begining at Ice Age?


It would not solve any of the problems that begning at Masques would not solve. Neither would address the price issue (a new format would drive prices up not down). Nor would they prevent combo decks from being degenerate kings, unless they instigate numerous bannings.

[Amon Amarth]

I really think the idea of this format would be a great. It would be an awesome replacement for Extended.

[quadibloc]

Neither would address the price issue (a new format would drive prices up not down).

This is a point that I have to admit is somewhat tricky and confusing.

You are absolutely right that the new format wouldn't make any cards cheaper. And the issue arose from the fact that cards for playing Legacy, such as the original dual lands, have been going up in price.

Reprinting the original duals would make them go down in price. This would get some of the people who own them upset with Wizards. And it is felt, with good reason, that this is unlikely to happen.

A new format in which those cards were not legal, however, would allow people to play in that format without those cards. (One advantage, incidentally, to starting with Ice Age is that Force of Will, from Alliances, would be legal, as some people have felt that the new format would be unbalanced, having too many combo plays, without that card being present.)

If the new format is sort of "like" Legacy, then, it addresses the price issue by letting people have a play experience like that of Legacy, but not involving a requirement for the most expensive cards in Legacy.

And, furthermore, the fact that it will drive up the prices of some cards is actually a good thing, and part of what is desired. In my opinion, a major component of the outcry when Chronicles came out was the perceived injustice in that the Elder Dragon Legends, and other high-priced cards that many players owned were now sent down in price because of the reprints... but the even more expensive cards that fewer players owned, the Power Nine and the original duals, hadn't been, and weren't likely to be, reprinted ever.

So the new format balances things out. Not reprinting protects the original duals. But people who don't have the original duals - but who do have cards like Gilded Lotus and Chrome Mox... Mirrodin is rotating out this fall, and it was a very popular set... would not be forgotten either. And, of course, Umezawa's Jitte and Tarmogoyf will rotate out eventually too.

[rleader]

I really think the idea of this format would be a great. It would be an awesome replacement for Extended.

I find this to be the strangest argument and it's bizarre how it's evidently turning on 95% of Evan Erwin's audience. Maybe the PTQ-chasing scene will have more fun in the new format (although it'll probably be more stagnant than extended by a large factor, especially after a few years), or maybe they won't, but I can't see kids who can barely afford to play Jund in standard (let alone $60 mythics) flocking to a format that they still won't be able to play in weekly tournaments.

Star City might be able to monetize the format with enough 5Ks devoted to it, but then they could do the same thing with pauper or prismatic or whatever, too; indeed, it's probably in their best interest to rotate through all of this stuff in order to maximize their sales on the widest variety of cards. $10 armadillo cloaks in 2014 right before the peasant 5K...

Not that it would be a bad thing, necessarily, as long as people are playing. I think we're all on the side of people playing magic. But to automatically assume that "people think extended sucks" and "superextended will be the funnest and automatically draw huge crowds" doesn't logically follow.

Especially when the supposedly real argument is that people "really want to play legacy but they can't afford it so this be the next best thing..."

[Amon Amarth]

This new format can not replace Legacy because of the lack of many cornerstone cards that aren't available in MM onwards. It would be a hell of a lot better than the Extended format currently because it only feels like Standard +.

The monetary argument makes little sense, because, well OverExtended isn't going to be like Legacy at all. Magic is really expensive these days and there isn't any real way to get around that, regardless of what format you pay.

[rleader]

format currently because it only feels like Standard +.

How does that work? That's another thing I keep seeing repeated but I find it ironic that a lot of people actually were hoping we'd have an ext season WITHOUT fetchlands just to see how it feels when turbo mode is turned off.

The power level between std and ext is currently pretty high, imo: if there's a reason it feels like standard, I'm guessing that has to do with power creep in general and newer innovations like planeswalkers. I'm guessing if you showed the average kid who plays firststrike.dec (now with basilisk collar!) Depths/Thopter, s/he'd be pretty impressed with a dark depths token.

I mean, a couple of years back, people could play stuff like Enduring Ideal; Hypergenesis seems pretty insane by comparison (well, with top gone, anyway), and it's still not putting up numbers in the meta. I do wonder what current judges at 5Ks think about top, whether it should be gone from legacy or if players are just getting faster with practice, etc

[Nelis]

but I can't see kids who can barely afford to play Jund in standard (let alone $60 mythics) flocking to a format that they still won't be able to play in weekly tournaments.

But there's a big difference. They have all the time in the world to get their deck together. They don't have to worry that the deck they've put together will be obsolete* in a couple of months time. And in time when they get older they get more money so they can get more expensive cards. *As is tournament illegal, not as in not right for the metagame anymore.

And there's also a lot of casual players who have collected a lot of cards over the years and can bring their old casual cards to play in tournaments.

[dontbiteitholmes]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m...f_Playing.html
I think this article is relevant to this conversation. The idea that kids complaining Legacy is too expensive are going to shell out for a new format is pretty laughable. The format is still going to be expensive and without Force of Will (IE the glue that holds the format together) decks are going to change more often then Legacy. Goblins has changed all of maybe 4 cards in the past 5 years and maybe 10 if you add a black splash. UGw aggro has changed +4 Tarmogoyf +4 Counterbalance +4 Top +4 Ponder +4 Noble Heirarch +4 Fetchlands and all of those cards (save Top) were added as the set came out and were popular in every format, so even if you play serious T2 or Ext you were still going to buy them most likely. I mean, I hear it Legacy is expensive to get started in, but it's also fun as crap and an eternal format. For most decks having cards that haven't been printed in over 15 years the format is still fairly cheap considering some cards that have come out in the past 3 years are considered staples of T2/Ext and cost $50-$70 a piece. What would you rather be holding in 5 years, a Tropical Island or a Jace the Mindsculptor? Let's face facts. A lot of people "in favor" of a new format are never going to actually play it.
1: Tournaments for it will be rare, likely rarer then block constructed.
2: The cards will still be expensive.
3: Shocklands and no Force of Will but a near Legacy sized card pool sounds like an unhealthy unfun format. (IE Aggro gets better, Control gets much worse, Combo doesn't have to consider FOW)
4: The format would cut into Legacy's and Extended's player base, hurting both formats and possibly destroying one.

[ktkenshinx]

Beginning at Ice Age is an interesting idea. It doesn't bypass all the reserved cards, or even all the expensive cards (such as Mana Drain).

But I'm not against that idea, since I felt that a format starting from the beginning, but with expensive cards banned, would be a good idea; it would be a good thing if the less expensive cards on the Reserved List had their chance to rise in value a little too.

There are four reasons that Wizards should not make Ice Age the cut off.

1. Arbitrariness
What distinguishes Ice Age from Fallen Empires or The Dark? Except for card power, nothing much (and even in that case, it's pretty debatable). The only reason that Wizards would do this is to keep Force of Will around as a check for their new format. There are, however, more elegant solutions. FoW basically does two things for Legacy: give Control a chance, and keep fast Aggro and Combo in check, especially fast Combo. FoW is the variation of Counterspell and Daze is the variation of Force Spike. Why not make a Mana Leak variant? 2U, alternate casting cost of 1 blue card and 1 life: counter target spell unless its controller pays 3. This would slow down combo by a few turns, and give control a nice answer to early game threats. It wouldn't totally wreck Standard or Extended, and it is not too powerful to warp Legacy and Vintage.

Regardless of the FoW issue, cutting the format off before the Reserve List departure is highly arbitrary. Wizards has to make up some bizarre power-level/price/popularity calculus to figure out where they should start the format (Urzas? Tempest? Ice Age? Dark? etc.) Cutting it off at Mercadian Masques is a clear departure from the Reserve List, is easily explained, and is a perfectly transparent decision.

2. Differentiating the Format
Enchantress. Eureka. Lands. What do these decks have in common? They are the only three decks that are uniquely affected by an Ice Age cutoff in the new format. Enchantress loses Moat. Eureka/Show and Tell loses Eureka. Lands loses Tabernacle. Naturally, all decks lose their duals. But is this really a different format that is created? ANT (LED, Mystical Tutor, Petal), Reanimator (Reanimate, Exhume), Stax (Smokestack, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors), Goblins (Lackey, Wasteland), Lands (Manabond, Exploration, Tabernacle), Imperial Painter (Grindstone, Imperial Recruiter), Enchantress (Argothian Enchantress, Elephant Grass, Replenish), NO Countertop/Bant (Natural Order, Swords to Plowshares), etc. All those cards in parentheses are those cards that the respective decks lose. In many cases, these are absolutely lethal losses that these archetypes cannot recover from. This shakes up the format and opens up tournaments to allow new deck types. Only a MM cutoff creates this necessary format disruption to really set aside "OverExtended"/"Legacy Lite" as a unique new format.

3. Power Level
Show and Tell, Reanimate, Sneak Attack, Gaea's Cradle, Serra's Sanctum, Force of Will, Wasteland, Goblin Lackey, Manabond, City of Traitors, Dream Halls, etc. These are some pretty darn powerful cards, and a new format might not be able to accommodate them. Besides, Wizards will want a fresh start and a clean slate for its new format. If Urza/Tempest block cards clogged up player's minds and decks, this would probably not happen.

4. Symbolism
The Reserve List is bad, and Wizards probably agrees. Owing to certain unfortunate and secret problems, however, Wizards was forced to keep it around. Whatever its reasons, Wizards needs to do something to keep Eternal alive and Eternal players happy. By making a new format starting at MM, Wizards waves goodbye to the Reserve List and its endlessly frustrating issues and ushers in a new Eternal era. This could either be an integral part of a marketing campaign, or just a good word-on-the-street for people to consider. Either way, the Reserve List-less format would be attractive to lots of players.

Wizards can't kill the Reserve List, but it can kill all problems surrounding the damnable list. Making a new format from MM onward prevents these problems in the foreseeable future (except in the Vintage and Legacy communities).

-ktkenshinx-

[dahcmai]

I would only laugh at the people bitching about how expensive Misdirection, Dust Bowl, Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, and Rishadan Port got if this became reality. Face it, you know it would happen.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Sounds to me like people just want to play this format because it's cheaper than Legacy in theory not because it would be more fun. Sounds like a good reason to make a new eternal format, I'm sure it will kill [/sarcasm]. Don't kill support for a good format because you don't want to spend $600 on some dual lands when the best type 2 decks right now have $500 invested in 12 or so cards that will be $10 rares by next Summer. If you want to complain about something complain about the reserve list. Basically every employee of Wizard's asked about it in the last 5 years has said no one at Wizards likes the policy and they want to get rid of it but market research says it's more important to keep their word. Not everyone can drive a Cadillac and hobbies are expensive. Top of the line surfboards, guitars, cameras, art supplies, video game systems, computers, all these things quickly run into the $700 to $1000 range or way more over several years if they are serious hobbies. Vintage and Legacy are the top of the line of Magic. Luckily for you there is free online Magic and 10 proxy tournaments are only becoming more popular. This would be equated to not having a top of the line computer and playing your video games at reduced resolution, playing a guitar you bought used, riding your uncles old surfboard, or whatever simile you want. You can play Legacy without dual lands, you just can't play sanctioned Legacy. Don't go fucking it up for everyone else because you want to add legitimacy to some bullshit cop-out format which basically substitutes cheaper cards in the place of more fun. Sanctioned Legacy is for people who have Magic as a serious hobby and enjoy the format. If you don't want to shell out for duals support proxy tournaments or play online for free.

As far as hobbies go you are getting off cheap even if you fully invest. Try golf out and see how much those set of clubs appreciate after playing them for 3 years compared to dual lands. Basically I'm saying very few people can say with a straight face they would actually rather play this format than Legacy yet they are borderline demanding it. To these people I say, "Complain about the reserve list or shut the fuck up. Start a petition at every major tournament and online. Have people sign it and put their DCI # on it then send it to Wizards. I can assure you if WOTC was staring at the signatures of 50% of the people who went to PTQ's and GP's in a year next to DCI #'s it would go a long way to pushing them over the edge on this Reserved List thing. Seriously Google it and see if you can find one WOTC employee over the past 4 years saying anything more positive than negative about the Reserve List. I doubt it, they all hate it and say so just about every time they are asked even on the WOTC website. The only way to get rid of it though is to show overwhelming support exists in the MTG community. They've basically said that 100 times.

If you really can truly say you would rather play this format than Legacy if $300 - $600 for dual lands in most decks wasn't an issue we can continue this conversation. Oh yeah, Tarmogoyf doesn't count because he'd still be good in Neutered Legacy and Force of Will doesn't count because people are paying more than a playset of Wills goes for to get playsets of Jace or Baneslayer for their Type 2 decks. Dual lands are the only issue up for discussion as far as cost goes. If you take out dual lands most Legacy decks are less expensive than the top T2 decks by several hundred dollars. Also if you have a T2 deck worth more than $400 you are not allowed to talk about the price of Legacy. You already picked your pony. Eternal formats should be determined by fun not by cost. No other hobby/game/sport would ban a piece of equipment because it was too expensive, they would only ban something if it gave someone an unfair advantage to the point of making the game unfun. So the question is, do you think Dual Lands, Force, and company are too expensive or do you think they are so broken they make the game unfun. I personally wouldn't play Vintage even if I had the cards. I don't like the format, it's too fast and janky and broken and the games are too complicated and hinge too much on cards that are Restricted to 1x a deck. I think a lot of Legacy players would agree. Legacy still exists because a lot of people find it more fun than Vintage, if they didn't it would be a crappy format that nobody really played except a few niche groups (see 1.5 before banned list seperation). One more time for emphasis, the only reason to sanction a new format would be for fun, not because of costs concerns. If you sanction a new format how about BYOBlock, BYOT2, Eternal Dragon Highlander, a fresh new format, not a stale version of an existing format without the cards that make it so fun.

[Some Guy]

Why not make a Mana Leak variant? 2U, alternate casting cost of 1 blue card and 1 life: counter target spell unless its controller pays 3. This would slow down combo by a few turns, and give control a nice answer to early game threats. It wouldn't totally wreck Standard or Extended, and it is not too powerful to warp Legacy and Vintage.

Fucktastic!

That only is insanely broken. yeah , playing around a free mana leak equal waiting 4 turns play a 1cc spell , smart idea you have. standard only has cancel for 1UU , and you want to give them a free mana leak and say wouldnt totally wreck them. do you think anything you say through , or only type alot hoping nobody will notice is just all a bunch of nonsense.

[quadibloc]

I would only laugh at the people bitching about how expensive Misdirection, Dust Bowl, Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, and Rishadan Port got if this became reality. Face it, you know it would happen.

Ah, but those could be reprinted. As I've noted, though, the idea is to keep the prices of things like Chrome Mox from dropping. There are more of those cards around, like there are more of Tarmogoyf around, than of the original duals - which are from the very early days. Revised, after all, didn't have as big a printing as Fourth Edition and what followed.

[ktkenshinx]

Fucktastic!

That only is insanely broken. yeah , playing around a free mana leak equal waiting 4 turns play a 1cc spell , smart idea you have. standard only has cancel for 1UU , and you want to give them a free mana leak and say wouldnt totally wreck them. do you think anything you say through , or only type alot hoping nobody will notice is just all a bunch of nonsense.

As usual, you have missed the point. The point is not that this specific card needs to be printed. The point is that some card like it could be. Whether it costed 3 or 4, or whether it countered unless 2 or 3 were paid is a discussion for another place that has zero bearing on this conversation. A FoW "reprint" is quite viable, and fits snugly in between Daze and the preexisting Force of Will (Miscalculation or Mana Leak).

If you take out dual lands most Legacy decks are less expensive than the top T2 decks by several hundred dollars.

But this is exactly one of the problems. The Duals are not going anywhere. For the past two years, they have been steadily increasing in price, a trend that is basically parallel to Legacy's popularity. If Legacy continues to grow in popularity, and the decks using duals continue to place at the top of tournaments (Zoo, CounterTop, ANT, TempoThresh, etc.) then this financial situation becomes unsustainable. This is not a problem with Force of Will, Wasteland, Tarmogoyf, and all their non-Reserve List friends. All of these cards can be reprinted in future core sets or, if this would cause balance problems in Standard and Extended, in future Master's/FTV/Planeswalker/etc packages. This could go a long way to making Legacy a bit more affordable to the average player.

But then there's those darn duals. You can't reprint them, but you need to run them. We can reasonably assume that Wizards wants a popular Legacy format, and as it increases in popularity, players will want more duals. This will absolutely increase their price to a far greater extent than Jace/BSA/Gideon/Elspeth will hit in T2. So what are the possible solutions that Wizards could offer?

1. Ban Dual Lands and make new ones
This one is a bit extreme and would necessitate a good Dual replacement. Ravnica shocklands would not suffice; Goblins, Zoo, and even Burn would all too eagerly take advantage of the repeated free Lightning Bolts over the course of a game. The problem is, these lands would have to be good enough to replace preexisting Duals and keep the format stable, but not too good so as to mess up Standard and Extended. That means they would need to be a) Fetchable and b) resource friendly. It also means that these Lands would need to fit with modern Land design philosophy as outlined by Rosewater here:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...com/daily/mr65

Yeah, some of that has been broken (Dark Depths anyone?), but for the most part, new Duals need to adhere to these ideas. That's bad news for Legacy. For one, the Lands can't be "strictly better than basic lands". Don't get all Wastelandy on me; in many situations, Duals are better than basics, and this is absolutely true from a design perspective (Rosewater's and co.). To do this, lands need to have drawbacks. Rosewater points to a list of possibilities. I will briefly address this list in regards to Legacy.
A. Tap for colorless: Doesn't fix mana, so not a real Dual.
B. Comes into play tapped: Too slow.
C. Requires life payment: Disadvantageous against Aggro. Ravnica shocklands were the paragon of B and C combined, and Wizards is not going to improve on that much. As discussed, those lands just won't work in Legacy.
D. Use every other turn: Even slower than coming into play tapped.
E. Limited number of uses: This is actually a realistic option. A "Gemstone Mine" cycle of duals would be feasible in Legacy, but only in Aggro and Combo. Control decks would find these lands quiet prohibitive. These would also be pretty darn useless in Standard (a much slower format).
F. Cost required when land is played: Depending on the cost, this could be alright. Something that forced you to Exile a certain number of cards from your graveyard, discard a certain kind of card from your hand, pay a certain strange cost, etc. would be useful in Legacy archetypes that could actually pay that cost. Unfortunately, this would exclude a lot of decks that could not pay the cost, tipping the format towards those that could still use Duals (remember, the original Duals have been banned in this alternate universe).
G. Don't provide mana by themselves: Slow, too vulnerable to Wasteland/Stifle, too clunky.
H. Requires another permanent in play: Again, too prohibitive of a design. Only certain decks could reliably use certain color lands.

At the point in time where Wizards is shaking up the Dual lands of the format, both with bannings and printings, the Legacy format is already getting a serious facelift. At that point, it might be better to just move on to a new format instead of trying to apply Magic the Gathering's largest band-aid.

2. Ban Duals and print no replacements
I imagine this idea would not fly in most Legacy circles. Lots of decks would change, perhaps even be crippled. Monocolor strategies would endure, as would fast Aggro strategies that could ignore the loss of life for running more costly duals (whether fetchable or otherwise). This is definitely not the best idea.

3. Make a new format and print new duals for it
In the first place, the new duals could not mess up Standard or Extended (unless they killed Extended as a result of the new format, in which case the problem would be with Standard). While this might be a design challenge, it would not be too difficult of one. The real problem is that this option might feel a bit too forced. I understand that Wizards wants to push their new format if they launch it, but I would imagine that this is better accomplished from a marketing and advertisement perspective with reprints than with new cards. Compare the two advertising campaigns for M11:
"M11: Here's new cards that we hope will fit into our new format"
"M11: Here's old goodies that we remember fit well into a similar format"
With some tinkering, the latter would probably be a better strategy.

4. Make a new format and reprint the Ravnica duals
In my opinion, this is the best option. Ravnica duals probably won't warp Standard too much, and reprinting them would keep the price down. It would also encourage new players to enter the format, because they can get the mana base so easily in a core set (and many of them already have the Fetchlands from some former Legacy/Extended/Standard experience in the last few years). Reprinting Ravnica duals would also go hand-in-hand with reprinting some possible "new format" staples that Wizards could hypothesize would be relevant. Let's not get bogged down in the details of these cards and their balance for Standard, but it would be pretty cool to see stuff like Fires of Yavimaya, Parallax Wave, Pernicious Deed, Opposition, Cunning/Living/Burning Wish, Umezawa's Jitte (too risky probably), and Chrome Mox. Again, let's not worry about the individual cards. The point is, it would be really cool to see those bad boys reprinted. As to the effect on price, the Standard demand coupled with the new format demand should keep prices relatively stable, if not a bit higher than before.

These are just some options that I have considered, all of which Wizards could feasibly do. Of course, they could also do absolutely nothing, but this seems quite unsustainable.

I also must agree with quadibloc's idea of price drops. Once Extended rotates, a lot of cards will simply become unusable. These are cards that are good in Extended but just not good enough for Legacy. These price drops will probably happen with consistency every year that Extended experiences a rotation. A New Format would likely fix that.

-ktkenshinx-

[dontbiteitholmes]

But this is exactly one of the problems. The Duals are not going anywhere. For the past two years, they have been steadily increasing in price, a trend that is basically parallel to Legacy's popularity. If Legacy continues to grow in popularity, and the decks using duals continue to place at the top of tournaments (Zoo, CounterTop, ANT, TempoThresh, etc.) then this financial situation becomes unsustainable. This is not a problem with Force of Will, Wasteland, Tarmogoyf, and all their non-Reserve List friends. All of these cards can be reprinted in future core sets or, if this would cause balance problems in Standard and Extended, in future Master's/FTV/Planeswalker/etc packages. This could go a long way to making Legacy a bit more affordable to the average player.

Legacy is not for the average player, that's what you fail to understand. Legacy is for someone who has magic as a serious hobby. You can buy a set of golf clubs at Wal-Mart or you can get a custom set from a top of the line manufacturer. Either way you are playing golf. You can take your Wal-Mart clubs and play golf all day, but when you go to play in a tournament and tell everyone that a $6000 set of clubs makes golf too expensive for the average player so they need to ban brand name clubs you are going to get laughed off the course. A playset each of Tundas, Tropical Islands, and Underground Seas would be under $700 if you shopped around and those are the 3 most expensive duals and I don't know any deck that would run 12 duals when the average for a 3 color deck is probably about 7 to 9. 7 to 9 dual lands would be about $500 or less. $500 for a hobby is not that much. Legacy is not for little kids who live with mom and dad, it's for people who have been playing Magic for a long time and treat it as a serious hobby. If you can't swing a one time investment of $500 for 2 playsets of duals, I've got some bad news for you. Sanctioned Legacy is not the format for you, in fact serious tournament Magic is probably not a hobby you can afford, and if you're over 18 you probably need a better job. If you still really want to play, play in a 10 proxy tournament, now you don't need dual lands and if you win the 1st prize is usually a tabernacle or power 9 and you can trade it in for a set of dual lands. If you can't even invest in the rest of the non-dual land cards you can play Legacy any time of day for absolutely free online with MWS and never spend a dime. So basically for a one time investment of up to $500 and an additional investment of approx. the price of a top T2 deck right now anyone can play Sanctioned Legacy. If you can't afford $500 you can play 10 proxy for prizes. If you can't afford any cards you can play free online. What's the problem here?

But then there's those darn duals. You can't reprint them, but you need to run them. We can reasonably assume that Wizards wants a popular Legacy format, and as it increases in popularity, players will want more duals. This will absolutely increase their price to a far greater extent than Jace/BSA/Gideon/Elspeth will hit in T2. So what are the possible solutions that Wizards could offer?

1. Ban Dual Lands and make new ones
This one is a bit extreme and would necessitate a good Dual replacement. Ravnica shocklands would not suffice; Goblins, Zoo, and even Burn would all too eagerly take advantage of the repeated free Lightning Bolts over the course of a game. The problem is, these lands would have to be good enough to replace preexisting Duals and keep the format stable, but not too good so as to mess up Standard and Extended. That means they would need to be a) Fetchable and b) resource friendly. It also means that these Lands would need to fit with modern Land design philosophy as outlined by Rosewater here:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...com/daily/mr65

Yeah, some of that has been broken (Dark Depths anyone?), but for the most part, new Duals need to adhere to these ideas. That's bad news for Legacy. For one, the Lands can't be "strictly better than basic lands". Don't get all Wastelandy on me; in many situations, Duals are better than basics, and this is absolutely true from a design perspective (Rosewater's and co.). To do this, lands need to have drawbacks. Rosewater points to a list of possibilities. I will briefly address this list in regards to Legacy.
A. Tap for colorless: Doesn't fix mana, so not a real Dual.
B. Comes into play tapped: Too slow.
C. Requires life payment: Disadvantageous against Aggro. Ravnica shocklands were the paragon of B and C combined, and Wizards is not going to improve on that much. As discussed, those lands just won't work in Legacy.
D. Use every other turn: Even slower than coming into play tapped.
E. Limited number of uses: This is actually a realistic option. A "Gemstone Mine" cycle of duals would be feasible in Legacy, but only in Aggro and Combo. Control decks would find these lands quiet prohibitive. These would also be pretty darn useless in Standard (a much slower format).
F. Cost required when land is played: Depending on the cost, this could be alright. Something that forced you to Exile a certain number of cards from your graveyard, discard a certain kind of card from your hand, pay a certain strange cost, etc. would be useful in Legacy archetypes that could actually pay that cost. Unfortunately, this would exclude a lot of decks that could not pay the cost, tipping the format towards those that could still use Duals (remember, the original Duals have been banned in this alternate universe).
G. Don't provide mana by themselves: Slow, too vulnerable to Wasteland/Stifle, too clunky.
H. Requires another permanent in play: Again, too prohibitive of a design. Only certain decks could reliably use certain color lands.

At the point in time where Wizards is shaking up the Dual lands of the format, both with bannings and printings, the Legacy format is already getting a serious facelift. At that point, it might be better to just move on to a new format instead of trying to apply Magic the Gathering's largest band-aid.

2. Ban Duals and print no replacements
I imagine this idea would not fly in most Legacy circles. Lots of decks would change, perhaps even be crippled. Monocolor strategies would endure, as would fast Aggro strategies that could ignore the loss of life for running more costly duals (whether fetchable or otherwise). This is definitely not the best idea.

3. Make a new format and print new duals for it
In the first place, the new duals could not mess up Standard or Extended (unless they killed Extended as a result of the new format, in which case the problem would be with Standard). While this might be a design challenge, it would not be too difficult of one. The real problem is that this option might feel a bit too forced. I understand that Wizards wants to push their new format if they launch it, but I would imagine that this is better accomplished from a marketing and advertisement perspective with reprints than with new cards. Compare the two advertising campaigns for M11:
"M11: Here's new cards that we hope will fit into our new format"
"M11: Here's old goodies that we remember fit well into a similar format"
With some tinkering, the latter would probably be a better strategy.

4. Make a new format and reprint the Ravnica duals
In my opinion, this is the best option. Ravnica duals probably won't warp Standard too much, and reprinting them would keep the price down. It would also encourage new players to enter the format, because they can get the mana base so easily in a core set (and many of them already have the Fetchlands from some former Legacy/Extended/Standard experience in the last few years). Reprinting Ravnica duals would also go hand-in-hand with reprinting some possible "new format" staples that Wizards could hypothesize would be relevant. Let's not get bogged down in the details of these cards and their balance for Standard, but it would be pretty cool to see stuff like Fires of Yavimaya, Parallax Wave, Pernicious Deed, Opposition, Cunning/Living/Burning Wish, Umezawa's Jitte (too risky probably), and Chrome Mox. Again, let's not worry about the individual cards. The point is, it would be really cool to see those bad boys reprinted. As to the effect on price, the Standard demand coupled with the new format demand should keep prices relatively stable, if not a bit higher than before.

These are just some options that I have considered, all of which Wizards could feasibly do. Of course, they could also do absolutely nothing, but this seems quite unsustainable.

I also must agree with quadibloc's idea of price drops. Once Extended rotates, a lot of cards will simply become unusable. These are cards that are good in Extended but just not good enough for Legacy. These price drops will probably happen with consistency every year that Extended experiences a rotation. A New Format would likely fix that.

-ktkenshinx-

Umm, wow where do I start? Did you even read my post? Seriously, read my post. No one at Wizards likes the reprint policy and the only reason they keep it is because they get feedback that says it's more important for them to keep their word then to change the policy. It's not a law, they could break it anytime they come to the decision it's the right thing to do. Google it, really, find one quote where someone at WOTC has said they like the reprint policy and it was a good idea in the past 5 years, I'll wait. Now try to Google and find where someone currently employed at WOTC has said they dislike it, I could probably pull up 10 quotes in 5 mins. if I cared to. The only thing keeping the reprint policy up is the lack of interest from the average MTG player to change it.

This is the part where I was going to run through your 1-4 and tell you why they are so stupid at this point in time but why bother. Right now dual lands are affordable to the people who they should be affordable to, basically anyone with a non-minimum wage full time job. When that changes in the future something will need to be done. That won't happen until Legacy becomes more popular. When Legacy becomes more popular and the prices of duals go up the tide will start to turn against the reprint policy as more and more people oppose it. Finally it will hit a tipping point and we will see a change in the policy. Talking about a new format now is stupid though. Dual lands aren't expensive enough to justify creating a new format and that seems to be the only real reason anyone can give. There are only 2 cards I can think of in Legacy worth more than Jace and they are Moat and Tabernacle. So basically check out these 4 pictures...
http://img96.imageshack.us/i/jaceprice.png/
http://img293.imageshack.us/i/dualprice.png/
http://img100.imageshack.us/i/baneprice.png/
http://img257.imageshack.us/i/forceprice.png/

Now, the only arguments I'm open to listening to are that
1: Extended plus is a format you would rather play then Legacy if dual lands weren't an issue. (Which I doubt is true)
2: $500 over the price of the top T2 deck is unreasonable for one of the most expensive decks in a format that uses every Magic card ever printed -61 cards and this alone justifies making a new format even though anyone can play unsanctioned Legacy 24 hours a day for free or with proxies of the most expensive cards at an unsanctioned tournament.

If you say #1, you sir are a liar. Everyone knows a new format couldn't hold a candle to Legacy.
If you say #2 either you haven't entered the workforce yet or you don't have enough disposable income to make a one time investment of $300-$1000 for a deck (which you can then trade off if you decide to make a different deck). Either way you might want to give up on serious tournament Magic since the average T2 deck costs $200-$500 and changes every other month. If you make a new format it's still going to be expensive, you are just going to be playing with shittier cards. It's not going to be much cheaper than Legacy is now since 7 years of extended puts us back to 2003 and extended plus puts us back to 1999. So the cards played in Ext+ are going to overlap heavily into extended for a while.

[ktkenshinx]

Umm, wow where do I start? Did you even read my post? Seriously, read my post. No one at Wizards likes the reprint policy and the only reason they keep it is because they get feedback that says it's more important for them to keep their word then to change the policy. It's not a law, they could break it anytime they come to the decision it's the right thing to do. Google it, really, find one quote where someone at WOTC has said they like the reprint policy and it was a good idea in the past 5 years, I'll wait. Now try to Google and find where someone currently employed at WOTC has said they dislike it, I could probably pull up 10 quotes in 5 mins. if I cared to. The only thing keeping the reprint policy up is the lack of interest from the average MTG player to change it.

I find it ironic that you accuse me of not reading your post when you are saying all of this. Not once did I say, or even imply, that Wizards likes their reprint policy. Moreover, I did not say it was legally binding; indeed I have argued in the past on this forum that it is NOT legally binding and they should have abolished it. They could still do this given its current, non-legal phrasing. But they probably won't. The policy is not going anywhere for a while, and their revisiting the issue a month ago (and ultimately deciding to keep it) is a firm seal on the matter. Wizards would absolutely love to axe the stupid policy and end this whole conversation but they can't. So we are working from there. As to your last quote, the bolded one, I will come back to that later.

This is the part where I was going to run through your 1-4 and tell you why they are so stupid at this point in time but why bother. Right now dual lands are affordable to the people who they should be affordable to, basically anyone with a non-minimum wage full time job. When that changes in the future something will need to be done. That won't happen until Legacy becomes more popular. When Legacy becomes more popular and the prices of duals go up the tide will start to turn against the reprint policy as more and more people oppose it. Finally it will hit a tipping point and we will see a change in the policy. Talking about a new format now is stupid though. Dual lands aren't expensive enough to justify creating a new format and that seems to be the only real reason anyone can give. There are only 2 cards I can think of in Legacy worth more than Jace and they are Moat and Tabernacle.

Had you tried to read my post, you will see that I firmly oppose three of the four points that I presented. I was listing possible responses Wizards could have if the Dual situation worsens, showing how three of them do nothing to solve the problem. In that sense, we agree that options 1, 2, and 3 are all stupid.

You acknowledge that the Dual land pricing situation will change in the future ("when that changes in the future...") I wonder how quickly you think that future will arrive. Given the current trend in Legacy popularity (evidenced in higher and higher tournament attendance) and in staple prices (Duals and such), the Dual Land price problems looks to be coming soon.

I think the duals are a problem now, or will be very soon. Even if you disagree, however, you must concede that EVENTUALLY something will have to be done. That said, you claim that Wizards will revisit the Reserve List and finally abolish it. Why do you think that? The outrage about the Reserve List reached a high point between January and March 2010. Discussion ranged from every site to every forum, including even Wizards courtesy of Mark Rosewater himself. Despite all of this public outcry, Wizards still preserved the policy. What will make them change their minds in the future? Reserve List prices will be even higher, giving collectors even more incentive to fight tooth and nail to keep their Reserve List. The marketing incentives will be higher than they are currently, for both Wizards and its buyers.

Now, this brings me to a disturbing point in your logic. While you might say that "the average MTG player" lacks interest to change the policy, why exactly do you think that the AVERAGE player will gain this interest? You flatly contradict yourself; you claim that Legacy is not a format for the AVERAGE player...

Legacy is not for the average player, that's what you fail to understand. Legacy is for someone who has magic as a serious hobby.

and then you say that the Reserve List will only be undone when the AVERAGE player advocate for its destruction...

The only thing keeping the reprint policy up is the lack of interest from the average MTG player to change it.

Why are average players going to take interest in a list that matters mostly, if not only, to non-average players? This just doesn't make any sense. If the Reserve List endures so long as average players don't care about it, and Legacy (a format not for average players) is the only format that cares about the Reserve List, that leaves us pretty damn screwed.

Unlike you, I don't think Eternal formats should just be for the "serious hobby" players. Legacy might be for serious hobbyists, and I have never disagreed with that. But I believe that all players should be able to enjoy an eternal format and not have to choose between Vintage and Legacy. A New Format would give those players the option and, given enough support, be able to overtake both Vintage and Legacy as the Eternal Format of choice. Either way, however, the Legacy/Reserve List contradiction that you so inadvertently exposed is not going anywhere, and leaves this format in trouble. With appropriate reprints, Wizards could make it relatively affordable and avoid the gradual climbing prices of Legacy, non-reprintable Duals and staples.

Now, the only arguments I'm open to listening to are that
1: Extended plus is a format you would rather play then Legacy if dual lands weren't an issue. (Which I doubt is true)
...

If you say #1, you sir are a liar. Everyone knows a new format couldn't hold a candle to Legacy.

That's quite a generalization. Given that I have read many people express an opposite opinion (on this site and others), I am inclined to say you are wrong.

2: $500 over the price of the top T2 deck is unreasonable for one of the most expensive decks in a format that uses every Magic card ever printed -61 cards and this alone justifies making a new format even though anyone can play unsanctioned Legacy 24 hours a day for free or with proxies of the most expensive cards at an unsanctioned tournament.
...
If you say #2 either you haven't entered the workforce yet or you don't have enough disposable income to make a one time investment of $300-$1000 for a deck (which you can then trade off if you decide to make a different deck). Either way you might want to give up on serious tournament Magic since the average T2 deck costs $200-$500 and changes every other month. If you make a new format it's still going to be expensive, you are just going to be playing with shittier cards. It's not going to be much cheaper than Legacy is now since 7 years of extended puts us back to 2003 and extended plus puts us back to 1999. So the cards played in Ext+ are going to overlap heavily into extended for a while.

Paying that much for a deck is not a problem for me or for most players. T2 prices will be high for a while, what with this new Mythic Rarity disaster. Legacy has a different problem. If price trends continue in their current direction, then the price of Legacy decks is just going to continue to rise and rise. This is the problem with the Reserve List and the potential problem with the format.

-ktkenshinx-

[rleader]

Once Extended rotates, a lot of cards will simply become unusable. These are cards that are good in Extended but just not good enough for Legacy.

How many cards per set are going to be good enough for superextended but not for legacy? 0.84? That's not saving a lot of effin' value in my book. So no, what you said is not a reasonable statement.

For the sake of argument, let's look at some recent extended decks for cards that are played there but not in legacy:

Thopter Depths: Slaughter Pact/River of Tears/Sunken Ruins
Blood Moon Zoo: Boom/Bust
Thopter Sword: Mindspring (but this is also a standard card)
Hypergenesis: Akroma's Memorial (and oh yeah, casual and EDH people value cards like this too!), Angel of Despair
Scapeshift: uh, Scapeshift, Valakut, Boseiju (but maybe it should be played more in legacy?)
B/W Pox: Sword Of Fire And Ice, Sword Of Light And Shadow (although they'll rotate out of ext before Jitte and they're only in as jitte's 3+4), Kitchen Finks, Baneslayer Angel
Dredge: Hedron Crab, Ideas Unbound
Elfball: cloudstone curio, primal command
Ninjas: Abyssal Persecutor, Ninja of the Deep Hours

1. The good cards in the good decks of extended are legacy playable for the most part (and are most of the strongest legacy cards!)
2. If every EXT card in every EXT deck rotated tomorrow morning, not a lot of value would be lost, outside of

a. substandard mana fixing lands
b. cards that are already also rans (sword of light and shadow in aformat that allows jitte)
c. creature fat that is constantly being ecclipsed (angel of despair<woodfall primus (arguably) <terrastodon

[quadibloc]

How many cards per set are going to be good enough for superextended but not for legacy?

Possibly quite a few.

After all, Mercadian Masques was the block following Urza block. Yes, Legacy has an extensive banned list, but the banned list is still only the minimum necessary to have a balanced format. A lot of cards in Urza block and other early sets that aren't banned in Legacy have a power level that simply is not seen at present.

After Urza block, Wizards brought in tournament players to advise it on card design, and in Masques block they played it fairly safe. So there is a big jump in power level; one can think of this as the beginning of the modern era of Magic. Present-day cards basically will fit right in rather than tending, as a general rule, to be hopelessly outclassed (except for creatures).