[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[Digital Devil]

I personally like to have 4x Claim and 3x Grudge in my 15. If I know my opponent plays Relic/Crypt, I'm only siding in 3x Grudge. We're seeing more cards than our opponent does because we dredge, so 3x Grudge > 4x hypotethical Crypts/Relics/a mixture of both. And I dislike both Terastodon and Wispmare against enchantment hate. Wispmare is sorcery speed, while Terastodon has to be DRed. Of course Wispmare can be DRed, too, but as already mentioned, Leyline/Wheel/Void prevent us to DR anything. So we need to choose between Chain/Claim. People tend to choose Chain because:

1) Its cost can be payed with any random land in the deck.
2) It deals with creatures, too.

While I do admit the first is a huge plus, what kind of creatures are annoying for us? Jailer and Archon? No one plays Jailer, and Archon sees play only in Reanimator. Is the temporarity of Chain worth the slot simply because it can deal with creatures? Claim is permanent, and if we want to talk about corner cases, it doesn't fall prey to REB. Aww, my opponent just sneaked a Blazing Archon into play, I wish this NC were a Chain... G3 we draw a hand which screams DOCTOR OCTAGONAPUS BLAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH and still kick their ass. We don't need to win every single game, even a 2-1 score is acceptable. We almost always start 1-0 against every deck. I'd rather lose to some random 5/6 than play Chain over Claim just because of it.

[(nameless one)]

So Digital Devil,

Does this sideboard look acceptable:

4x Coffin Purge
4x Nature's Claim
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Flame-kin Zealot
1x Terrastodon
1x -open slot-

The reason why I am using Coffin Purges is because I currently do not have any Leylines (well, not yet). I am thinking if I am going to face Reanimator or mirror, might as well be ready (although Leyline would be better, right?)

I dont really know what I should put on my open slot. I was thinking of Darkblast (I am not running any Darkblasts on main). Maybe a single copy of Chain of Vapor for lucksacking purposes?

[Jaynel]

@Digital Devil: Unfortunately, your game 1 against Reanimator isn't as good as it is against other decks, because you are completely kold to Archon preboard and they have disruption with counters. I think Chain is much, much better than Claim. They answer the same things, but Chain can be cast off of any land. This is really relevant, especially when it comes to mulligan decisions.

[Rune]

I would never play Dredge in Legacy without Angel of Despair in my mainboard. It makes the g1 against Reanimator really easy, it answers any troublesome permanent, it feeds Ichorid and it pitches to Unmask. It's just awesome!

[Digital Devil]

So Digital Devil

Claim, Grudge and Chosen are all "ok" cards. About Coffin Purge: same exact thing as Ancient Grudge. You're dredging, thus seeing more cards per turn than your opponent does, so I would play only 3. If you aren't playing Leyline because you still don't have 'em, what about Faerie Macabre? It can be awesome both in the mirror and against Reanimator. Now, your open slot. Let's assume for a moment that 4x Coffin Purge is excessive. Let's pretend you only play 3. You now have 2 free slots, which could be Darkblasts. Or, if you cut Zealot, you now have three free slots, so you could play 3x Darkblast, 3x Lightning Axe or 3x Firestorm. I don't get the usefulness of FKZ, not even in the sb. Ancestor's Chosen can still be a pain for ANT if DRed early, and the random opportunity to win against Lands! isn't IMHO worth the slot.

@Digital Devil

No one plays Reanimator here, but free grave-hate is kinda popular due to the existance of blue spells that let you see 3 extra cards. If I bounce a Crypt, they're playing it the next turn. The fact that Chain can be cast off any land is relevant, although having Claim hasn't ever been an issue.

I would never play Dredge in Legacy without Angel of Despair in my mainboard.

I tried to play it in my mainboard for a while, but I almost always sided it out g2. I only want it against Lands, Enchantress, Stax and Reanimator. If those decks are really popular in your area then I understand your choice, but to me, the perfect place is in the sb.

---------------------
P.S. - After a good amount of testing, I came to the conclusion that 4x Careful Study + 3x Breakthrough is a generally better configuration than 4x Breakthrough + 3x Careful Study.

[Pltnmngl]

---------------------
P.S. - After a good amount of testing, I came to the conclusion that 4x Careful Study + 3x Breakthrough is a generally better configuration than 4x Breakthrough + 3x Careful Study.

Care to elaborate? I'm assuming it's because you side out breakthrough a lot.

[Digital Devil]

Care to elaborate? I'm assuming it's because you side out breakthrough a lot.

I think it is an error to entirely side out Breakthroughs. The fact is, I used to play 4, but lately I've been siding out 1 copy every time I played g2. You play 4 copies of a certain card whenever you always want it to be in your opening hand, and if you have additional copies, it isn't a problem. Breakthrough feels to me like Dread Return: a spell which needs to resolve. The fact is, I'm casting it only if I'm sure it can have a huge impact on the game state, so, additional copies are useless. Instead, multiple Studies are always welcome. I hate to throw away nearly perfect hands just because I have a land and Breakthrough as my only discard outlet. CS still makes you recover from Crypt/Relic, without the risk of getting owned by a second piece of hate. It also makes us dig for our anti-hate cards. Still haven't much time to elaborate, but this should be better than my previous post.

[bum_man]

I semi-retired from playing cards for a few month and I'm now thinking of playing again. I'm re-tuning my deck and I just have a few questions.

@Digital Devil: About Enchantment hate, graveyard hate have been very dynamic where I play. A combination of both artifacts and enchantments are used, especially Wheel of Sun and Moon. I'm just wondering if wispmare is a better card than claim in terms of knocking out enchantments because 1) it can't be chaliced 2) it is very difficult of hit with counterbalance 3) it can't be spell snared and 4) can be d'returned as opposed to nature's claim which is relatively easy for the opposing decks that pack enchantment hate to stop i.e. CT-goyf, Canadian Thresh, Rock, Aggro Loam. I'm just asking which is better since I play Chains and Claims/wispmare in my board.

Another question, woodfall primus vs terastodon vs angel of despair. I'm thinking about which is generally the best. Woodfall Primus can be used twice and has trample. Angel of Despair flies and kills creatures too. Terastodon knocks-off up to 3 permanents but the problem i see in terastodon is it gives the opponent a 3 turn clock to use against us. He's 9/9 and all but it'd be easy enough for the opponent to stp, or bounce, or path or oblivion ring him away.

About the breakthrough and careful study ratio, I too play 3 breakthroughs to 4 studies. It's more consistent this way. I've been thinking about changing this so that I'd have better odds of having breakthrough in my hand. Post-board, i usually go to 2 breakthrough and 3 studies or 4 breakthroughs in some match-ups. I'm just thinking what would be better generally, having 4 breakthroughs or studies. I chose studies since they have less impact in the game when countered compared to breakthrough. what do you think?

Thanks for the input people.

[Digital Devil]

@Digital Devil: About Enchantment hate, graveyard hate have been very dynamic where I play. A combination of both artifacts and enchantments are used, especially Wheel of Sun and Moon. I'm just wondering if wispmare is a better card than claim in terms of knocking out enchantments because 1) it can't be chaliced 2) it is very difficult of hit with counterbalance 3) it can't be spell snared and 4) can be d'returned as opposed to nature's claim which is relatively easy for the opposing decks that pack enchantment hate to stop i.e. CT-goyf, Canadian Thresh, Rock, Aggro Loam. I'm just asking which is better since I play Chains and Claims/wispmare in my board.

The only decks that could pack both enchantment and artifact hate are Enchantress, Aggro Loam and Stax. Enchantress doesn't need to pack Crypts when it has access to 6+ Wheel of Sun and Moon. Aggro Loam either packs Crypts or Leylines. In a blind scenario like this, Claim is obviously better than Wispmare. You don't know what they're siding in, so you'll bring all-purpose cards like Claim/Chain. That deck has many troublesome cards to deal with, but the last thing I want to see on the table is 3Sphere. Against Stax I usually bring in a combination of Chains/Grudges + Angel of Despair, hoping they won't cast that three-mana artifact. Anything else seems less dangerous when you have 7-8 cards to help you. It still remains a terrible matchup, even postboard, but I think it's not unwinnable as long as you board in the right cards. Wispmare is IMHO too narrow to deserve slots in the sb.

Another question, woodfall primus vs terastodon vs angel of despair. I'm thinking about which is generally the best. Woodfall Primus can be used twice and has trample. Angel of Despair flies and kills creatures too. Terastodon knocks-off up to 3 permanents but the problem i see in terastodon is it gives the opponent a 3 turn clock to use against us. He's 9/9 and all but it'd be easy enough for the opponent to stp, or bounce, or path or oblivion ring him away.

Terastodon deals with multiple permanents at once, but doesn't have evasion, and can be blocked by its own-made tokens. Primus, instead, deals with a single permanent, unless you have another Cabal Therapy in your graveyard and/or enough creatures to cast DR. Let's say it deals with 2 permanents. It has Persist and Trample. It seems better than Terastodon, even if it hasn't high stats. The fact is that I personally never had to struggle against multiple permanent pieces of hate at once, so, instead of playing a 6/6 with Trample, I'd rather play a 5/5 with Flying that also deals with creatures and can be Ichorid food on occasion. I want my deck to be as resilient as possible, and Angel helps me accomplishing this goal. Primus and Terastodon already do what Chain/Claim are supposed to do. Angel does something unique. I'm not saying it's the best among the three creatures, I'm only saying why I consider it to be so.

I chose studies since they have less impact in the game when countered compared to breakthrough. what do you think?

Another thing I forgot to say before.

[bum_man]

The only decks that could pack both enchantment and artifact hate are Enchantress, Aggro Loam and Stax. Enchantress doesn't need to pack Crypts when it has access to 6+ Wheel of Sun and Moon. Aggro Loam either packs Crypts or Leylines. In a blind scenario like this, Claim is obviously better than Wispmare. You don't know what they're siding in, so you'll bring all-purpose cards like Claim/Chain. That deck has many troublesome cards to deal with, but the last thing I want to see on the table is 3Sphere. Against Stax I usually bring in a combination of Chains/Grudges + Angel of Despair, hoping they won't cast that three-mana artifact. Anything else seems less dangerous when you have 7-8 cards to help you. It still remains a terrible matchup, even postboard, but I think it's not unwinnable as long as you board in the right cards. Wispmare is IMHO too narrow to deserve slots in the sb.

Recently there were CB Thresh, Canadrain Thresh and Bants packing a combination of wheel of sun and moon and crypts here where I play, they also have firespouts too. Claim gets the nod here, I guess. Aggro Loam has chalice on 1 that could possibly knock-out claim, but having leylines and a chalice on 1 in the opening hand would be too much for the deck anyway.

Terastodon deals with multiple permanents at once, but doesn't have evasion, and can be blocked by its own-made tokens. Primus, instead, deals with a single permanent, unless you have another Cabal Therapy in your graveyard end/or enough creatures to cast DR. Let's say it deals with 2 permanents. It has Persist and Trample. It seems better than Terastodon, even if it hasn't high stats. The fact is that I personally never had to struggle against multiple permanent pieces of hate at once, so, instead of playing a 6/6 with Trample, I'd rather play a 5/5 with Flying that also deals with creatures and can be Ichorid food on occasion. I want my deck to be as resilient as possible, and Angel helps me accomplishing this goal. Primus and Terastodon already do what Chain/Claim are supposed to do. Angel does something unique. I'm not saying it's the best among the three creatures, I'm only saying why I consider it to be so.

Thanks for the input. I'll be looking to test both angel and primus to see works better here where I play.

[popiezhius]

I chose studies since they have less impact in the game when countered compared to breakthrough. what do you think?

What is the difference between countered study and countered breakthrough? Or do I miss something?

[Digital Devil]

What is the difference between countered study and countered breakthrough? Or do I miss something?

He probably meant since you're casting Breakthrough when you're trying to go off, (while Study can both be used to go off and/or find the pieces of the combo to go off the next turn), knowing this can and will make your opponent pay much more attention to your plays, or play much more aggressively. It still ask myself why would someone play a blind Breakthrough against a blue based deck, but that's another question.

[drawer]

It still ask myself why would someone play a blind Breakthrough against a blue based deck, but that's another question.

A 2-for-1 is still a 2-for-1. Assuming you're playing around Daze at least. If you have two Breakthroughs in hand I would argue that the first Breakthrough is better than Cabal Therapy unless they have double Force double blue card, in which case they're countering the Therapy anyways. Sometimes getting your spells countered is just something that has to happen. If you use Breakthrough as a bait spell it's usually a win/win situation against blue decks, if it resolves you get to dump your hand, if it's countered you're more likely to resolve your permanent discard outlet or second Breakthrough. If you spend a turn on the DDD plan it gets even better.

[Nidd]

I present you: My current list.

My list:
// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
3 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba

// Spells
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 1 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim


I've been liking the 12 Dredgers so far. Only having 7 permanent discard outlets didn't hurt me the slightest since I also have 2 Studies to get it rolling and if everything goes bad, I can still therapy myself, however, this definitely isn't the play I like to make.
I think the MB is fine...
...However, I just dunno about the SB. I don't know ewhether this board is capable of handling the most common hate thrown in my direction.
When I stopped playing Dredge, Relics and Crypts were the hate of choice, has this changed?

[Wargoos]

When I stopped playing Dredge, Relics and Crypts were the hate of choice, has this changed?

No. However you see some Leylines and traps here and there.

Your sideboard lacks terastodon, you just have to play it nowadays because it saves you from random jank.
Iona is a very discussable choice, a lot of people think she is kinda win-more.(read the last pages in this thread)
In the current meta you should play Chain of Vapor in place of Nature's claim since you can cast chain with every land you play
and it presents another out for reanimator.
The needles are not needed since you already play the grudges and you should dedicate those slots for some gy-hate against the mirror and reanimator.

[Nidd]

It's highly unlikely that I'll play the mirror where I'll play this deck, so I didn't include a plan for it. Anyways, what is the normal plan for the mirror? Leylines?

My updated SB would look like this:
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Terastodon
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 1 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [ONS] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm

[sunshine]

I run Firestorms, so they come in. I'll often bring in some number of Wispmare's if they happen to be in my board as well.

Some do run Leylines, Traps, Crypts or any of a number of other GY hate pieces. Generally speaking the mirror is not something people lose a whole lot of sleep over though. If you have something relevant to bring in that's great, if not it isn't the end of the world. The mirror generally revolves around seeing who can stick an Iona first or make the most Zombies in a single turn, as that's about how long you can assume your Bridges will stick around.

As with all SB advice this makes some assumptions about the meta you'll be playing in. If the Dredge is enough of a presence that you're worried about SBing for the mirror I'd advise thinking about running a different deck (as you can be sure everyone else in the field will packing hate too).

[bum_man]

What is the difference between countered study and countered breakthrough? Or do I miss something?

Breakthrough is this deck's "big money" spell. People as much as possible want to make the breakthrough as lucrative as possible because the resolution of this spell usually could possibly mean a win. This is why when people cast it, it usually means it is time to make a move for a win. If it gets countered chances are the opponent got himself in a good position to win. As compared to a careful study which is primarily a set-up spell, if you use it to dredge and it gets countered its only a minor tempo loss as compared to a breakthrough. This deck can't afford having their breakthroughs countered because its probably the deck's only speed buff.

A 2-for-1 is still a 2-for-1. Assuming you're playing around Daze at least. If you have two Breakthroughs in hand I would argue that the first Breakthrough is better than Cabal Therapy unless they have double Force double blue card, in which case they're countering the Therapy anyways. Sometimes getting your spells countered is just something that has to happen. If you use Breakthrough as a bait spell it's usually a win/win situation against blue decks, if it resolves you get to dump your hand, if it's countered you're more likely to resolve your permanent discard outlet or second Breakthrough. If you spend a turn on the DDD plan it gets even better.

Wouldn't cabal therapy be better since if you bait breakthrough 1 and it gets forced, you wouldn't think the opponent has any more forces or counters at that so you'd therapy for something else in which case they could let it resolve, time-walking you a turn wherein they could possibly draw an out. a 2 for 1 is indeed good for the deck probably not just for a breakthrough, maybe its just me but when I cast breakthrough I aim for it to resolve since chances are, I already have good board position i.e discard outlet.

@Nidd: You already have Angel of Despair so I think it would be redundant playing Terastodon, unless you have a dedicated target for Reanimator and prison decks. And is having a return and an FKZ in the board worth running? FKZ usually only is viable game 1. Leylines and Wheel of Sun and Moon are prevalent where I play so I have both Chains and Claims in my board.

[Digital Devil]

Hey guys, what do you think about sb Faerie Macabre instead of Leyline of the Void? Don't we want Leyline against the mirror and against Reanimator? FM serves the same purpose, while being free, instant, and unpredictable. Enlighten me.

[Dredgehammer]

Faerie Macabre works against Reanimator and works okay against Lands and Loam decks. I play Macabre because it suits my budget better, and I don't see a lot of dredge where I play (I've never played a mirror). Thing is, Reanimator has target discard so they'll see it coming - you have to have a quick clock forcing them to interact.