Hi, I am quite new to the forum and MTG in general. Despite that I am currently working to create a goblin mainboard that at the moment lacks a sideboard.
I started a thread in the New and development deck, but got convinced to start writing here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17741-[Deck]-R-B-Tribal-Goblin
(I must confess that I have only read about 10 pages in the beginning and 10 pages in the end of this thread, for that I apologize).
The goal with this deck is to contain the colours Black and Red and of course aiming to be as aggressive as a Goblin deck can be.
This is the current progress of the deck (the deck is including cards I got IRL this far):
Deck: Untitled Deck
//Lands
5x Mountain
4x Auntie's Hovel
2x Blood Crypt
4x Wasteland
3x Sulfurous Springs
4x Badlands
//Creatures
3x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Stingscourger
2x Goblin Chieftain
2x Warren Instigator
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie
1x Goblin Tinkerer or use Lightning Crafter? Add another Stingscourger? Or pick/add another Goblin?
//Spells
3x Warren Weirding
3x AEther Vial
Display Deck Statistics
As far as I know, and that people told me. Goblin cards that is needed is:
Goblin Lackey, Matron, ringleader Piledriver, Warchief, Gempalm incinerator and Aether vial. So those cards won't be exchanged for other cards.
Stingscourger and Warren Weirding have proven to be very useful, especially with Wort.
I have tested to play with proxy "Rishadan Port", with quite good result, so I guess I will try to have atleast 2 of them.
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But otherwise, generally, what do you think about this build and what would you change?
I would get happy for your respond. :]
Keep in mind that Chalice is suspectible by Duress 50% of the time and in addition is suspectible to bounce. On the play they can also get around Chalice to some extent by playing out their Petals/LEDs. There have also been times when my opponent just comboed right through my Chalice at 0. On the other hand Mindbreak Trap has it's limitations as well , they can sometimes play Ad Naus as their second spell and the play you described is a vunerability as well. I guess we can conclude that both Chalice and Trap have their merits and limitations, but we agree that they are both better than Thorn. With that said, perhaps a 2/2 or 3/1 split would be a good idea, since having a Chalice for 0 and 1 in play leaves you extremely vunerable to Hurkyls Recall and having 2 Traps makes you vunerable to Orims Chant so you get around those problems as well.
Team R&D
On Null Rod, DDANT uses 4 Sensei's Divining Top on top of all the artifact mana. That's why Null Rod is so devastating.
I think something that should be pointed out is that Chalice is better against Belcher and it also is somewhat useful against Zoo. They have way too many 1cc spells while you have around 8. You can side out Lackeys and hope do get a Turn 1 Vial into Turn 2 Chalice @1. That looks pretty good to me. For the ones playing Bolt that plan seems rather mediocre.
What do you think of good old Pyrostatic Pillar?
ANT loses lots of lives for Ad Naus. As we know from the finals in Madrid they sometimes draw themselves to death. Pyrostatic Pillar must be answered before they go off, and my experience says that it always costs them 4 life to bounce it (tutor/brainstorm/ponder + bounce).
If they take more than 4 damage from Pillar AND we can set up pressure, they are probably done for.
I discussed this with severel ANT players and their answers were like:
"I didnt expect to face Pillar, thats why I couldnt deal with it"
and
"Pillar is the most uneffective combo hate in R, cause we can win without removing it"
Unfortunately nobody could tell me HOW to do this. Can someone please tell me? I can imagine that IGG is important but I dont know how this invincible turn should look like :D
Get rid of the shock lands and put in fetches. You NEED that 4th aether vial, its one of the best cards in the deck. Lighting crafter is terribad. Personally, I'm not a big fan of wort, but that's a meta call. Ports are very good.Originally Posted by Armfelt
Hi, I am quite new to the forum and MTG in general. Despite that I am currently working to create a goblin mainboard that at the moment lacks a sideboard.
I started a thread in the New and development deck, but got convinced to start writing here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17741-[Deck]-R-B-Tribal-Goblin
(I must confess that I have only read about 10 pages in the beginning and 10 pages in the end of this thread, for that I apologize).
The goal with this deck is to contain the colours Black and Red and of course aiming to be as aggressive as a Goblin deck can be.
This is the current progress of the deck (the deck is including cards I got IRL this far):
Deck: Untitled Deck
//Lands
5x Mountain
4x Auntie's Hovel
2x Blood Crypt
4x Wasteland
3x Sulfurous Springs
4x Badlands
//Creatures
3x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Stingscourger
2x Goblin Chieftain
2x Warren Instigator
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie
1x Goblin Tinkerer or use Lightning Crafter? Add another Stingscourger? Or pick/add another Goblin?
//Spells
3x Warren Weirding
3x AEther Vial
As far as I know, and that people told me. Goblin cards that is needed is:
Goblin Lackey, Matron, ringleader Piledriver, Warchief, Gempalm incinerator and Aether vial. So those cards won't be exchanged for other cards.
Stingscourger and Warren Weirding have proven to be very useful, especially with Wort.
I have tested to play with proxy "Rishadan Port", with quite good result, so I guess I will try to have atleast 2 of them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But otherwise, generally, what do you think about this build and what would you change?
I would get happy for your respond. :]
On the topic of mindbreak traps, I was playing ANT and my oppenent was holding 3 mindbreak traps in hand. I was able to go off, and then remove all three of them and kill him. From 12 life... the deck is stupid good.
I don't know what you mean by "invincible turn" but combo player can still go off with Ill-Gotten Gains under a pillar when they have enough life getting enough storm (while taking 16 or more dmg) and finishing you off with tendrils. However, that just funtions when they really have Iggy (some ANT list don't play them aynomre) and when you couldn't deal any dmg to them except with the pillar.
A single Orim's Chant shuts unfortunately off the traps. Also when you have just one copy of the trap in hand ( well, that should be the usuall number at least) then duress still wins the game for the ANT player here.On the topic of mindbreak traps, I was playing ANT and my oppenent was holding 3 mindbreak traps in hand. I was able to go off, and then remove all three of them and kill him. From 12 life... the deck is stupid good.
I think trap is just good in a sideboard against ANT where you can pair it with other hate (see the lands.dec sb -> Chalice + Traps).
I don't think that trap is suited for a goblin deck, while you can have some momentum and suprise the ANT player with playing the trap, most of the time he will be able to easily outplay it.
I think Thorn of Amethyst is the right ANT hate in a goblin sb.
Team Legal Actions.
Is there a new primer available? This one is over 3 years old.
This has been mentioned before, but if the ANT player keeps their Chants in, in fear of Trap, Im absolutely fine with that. If they are going to spend their efforts digging for Chant in fear of Trap then Trap more than I could have dreamed it to do; namely get me to turn 3 where I can beat them with Earwig Squad. The interaction of Squad with Instigator/Lackey and Trap is where its at kids.
Team R&D
Works only when you actually play Earwig Squad in addition to trap.
I think this includes the Squad to a degree.I think trap is just good in a sideboard against ANT where you can pair it with other hate
Team Legal Actions.
Yes but with Lackey/Instigator you can put Matron into play and then cast Earwig Squad since I am not going to rely on naturally drawing into a 1-of.
Team R&D
You could just pray for turn 1 Lackey, turn two swing, Warchief, Squad. Extremely rare, but fun.
Keep playing Pillar, only to watch your opponent IGG loop.
Being a combo playing I am telling you how to beat me, and the simple answer is don't waste your time. Whatever bullshit cards you play against a good combo player are worthless. Null Rod is the only thing that stops a good list. And if you play in a meta with lots of combo, I would advise you to not play Gobbos. Play Merfolk since that deck sucks against most everything else but combo.
It is really not even worth the slots, and if you keep running Mindbreak Trap, I will keep winning. Seriously, as a combo playing I build SBs that take Dragon Stompy and Stax as an autoloss since the matchups are that bad, but literally every other matchup can go my way. Null Rod is the best all around card you can have. Play Chalice and watch me win through it. Play Thorn, watch it killed or bounced then watch the combo. Rod is the only thing that STOPS the combo. Delay isn't good enough unless you have a double Piledriver draw.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
-You have yet to tell me what artifact in ad naus tendrils is stopped by null rod but not a chalice for 0.
-You also haven't explained why the combo player can bounce/kill a thorn but not a null rod
Null Rod is horrible vs tendrils. I'd try discard.
What ? What good is that ? That doesnt even make any sense.
LOL, this makes me laugh, its this mentality thats keeps competent combo players winning. Top isn't stopped by Chalice at 0. Neither are any of my cantrips, MT or rituals.
I forgot why I stopped posting on these boards for a while but you just reminded me, welcome to my ignore list :) I'm not going to justify why Null Rod is worse, this debate has been had numerous times on combo threads. You can bounce Rod and Thorn. ROD TURNS OFF TOP. Which is huge. Also, if I stumble on mana I can't use Moxen and Petals to stabilize and keep digging for my combo. But don't take my advice on it, keep playing Mindbreak Trap and Chalice, they work so well.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Someone doesn't agree with you so you try to make yourself look correct by threatening to ignore them? Way to improve your game there, bud.
I don't even know what your decklist is, but from the sound of it, it's not one I'm likely to run into. I'm not going to run null rods just so I can have a good game against a deck that I'm not likely to run into unless I'm 0 and 2. I'm trying to gear up against tendrils decks that actually win. Because goblins have been posting wins against ad nauseam about 50% of the time in the 6 SCG opens, I'd like my win % against ad nauseam to be that high too. If I ignore combo like you're suggesting, I'm likely to run into about 1 MU against A.N. tendrils since it makes up about 5% of the field, and my chances of winning might fall from say, 50% to 35-40%.
And the tendrils players I run into can combo off on turn 2, so null rod might not even hit the board if they're on the play, while chalice will. You drop it for 0 and they can't play lotus petal, lion's eye diamond, or chrome mox. Sure, Null Rod hits SDT, but you've just given them 2 turns to beat you before you even lay it down. And I'm not as worried about SDT as I am them having mana to resolve Ad Nauseam, or having the blue mana they might need to pull out tendrils after nauseam resolves.
And the version of tendrils I test against doesn't run cantrips. And Null Rod doesn't stop mystical tutor. Or rituals. So I'm not sure why you brought that up.
And I don't run mindbreak or chalice. I was running chalice, and it did slow Ad Nauseam down because they had to bounce it, but I decided discard is a more effective answer. If I pull out the only card you have to find you an ad nauseam, you're in top deck mode, and I might be able to win before you draw into the piece you need.
Turn 1 Land -> Lackey
Turn 2 R/B Land / Fetch for R/B; Lackey in Warchief, thus reducing the prowl cost by one, therefore be able to prowl in Earwig.
But yeah, most of the time you need to Matron first to get earwig, resulting in the combo player finishing you on his 2nd turn.
So i would say optimal play vs ANT:
T1 Lackey,
T2 Thorn, Lackey into Matron for Earwig and hope that he can't solve the Thorn AND combo in his turn.
Nevertheless this play isn't the i-win button it might look like. I had an ANT player earwiged before just finding out he had Tendrils and *insert win enabler* in hand.
Referring to:
He's playing something extremely bad for the rest of the field in form of DDANT. I don't think it's suboptimal, instead i would say this is even superior to the normal ANT lists IF the player knows what he's doing.
Afterall i don't see alot of DDANT finishing that great in the hand of *random* guys, no insult intended here, but people who are established storm combo players love DDANT for what it's capable of doing: fighting through hate like no other deck out there.
Anyhow, if you're facing alot of combo in your meta goblins is the wrong deck.
BUT if you're just afraid to run into the 1-4% percent and your matchup against the rest is good, then i guess you CAN improve your matchup, by dedicating at least 4 cards to it, or you just take it like a man and ignore it, improving the 50-50 matchups.
This is heavily depending on the ANT list you're facing.
If it's with white expect angels grace to deal with pillar, then he's free to go, although these variants aren't very common anymore.
Thats the answer I always get. It is POSSIBLE but not very LIKELY to get killed by IGG loop.
For real: how much damage do you take before you find the right cards to loop? Lets assume I fetched twice in until turn 2, then dropped Pillar. So I'm on 18. You need 8 spells + Tendrills to kill me. One of these 8 spells is IGG. That means you took at least 14 damage.
How likely is it that you can go off via IGG (not being prepared for Pillar)?
//EDIT: Angels Grace has a point, thanks daPaule!
Wow, ignorant much?
He runs, from what I know, DDANT, which will play right through CotV like nobodies business but has problems against Null Rod.
Oh wow, the deck can combo off T2. Guess what, DDANT can do that, too.
And honestly, if the ANT decks you play against don't run cantrips, they seem to be freaking bad. I mean, I can understand when people don't play the full playset Ponder, but 0 Brainstorm? Best be joking.
Seriously, you're dismissing the point one of the most experienced, regular posters on this forum who actually plays ANT and just say he writes bullshit and his version is bad? Great way to get help from Storm pilots.
On topic: CotV is only half as effective against DDANT. Against ANT, it's a legitimate strategy, but against DDANT, which is regarded superior by many good storm pilots on this forum, it's worse than Null Rod.
Assuming ANT player is on 17 -> 2nd turn for him, everything else is even more unlikely. So he has 2 lands in GY + any of BS, Ponder, Mystical making it 3 Grave cards, 6 cards in hand after playing his 2nd fetchland.
Ritual, Cabal Ritual, LED, Petal, Tutor -> 7 life, 6xb + 2nd land, getting IGG.
Making it 8 GY cards. Casting IGG -> Ritual, LED, tutor; 2b + land left
Casting Ritual, LED, saccing it response to tutor for tendrils; 1 life 7xb left + tendrils in hand @ 1life punishing us for 20.
And unless you are playing a version with lightning bolt it is not possible for us to have him below 17 at his 2nd turn.
Also in this scenario I ignored the 6th card in hand and still stormed to 10 with Cabal Ritual not getting threshed.
OK worst scenario:
We started with lackey go, 2nd turn we play Pillar, lackey in Siege Gang (ANT: 19life). He can't go off on his 2nd turn.
Hardcast chieftain (Goblin, never fetched and stuff: 18). Attack -> Lackey, 3x Token, Chieftain, SGC taking ANT to: 6.
THIS makes it alot harder ;-)
ANT also fetched once, played again one Ponder/BS/Mystical taking him to 5.
3 lands in play, 2 cards in grave again isn't enough to thresh cabal.
His play is: DR, CR (1life), Tendrils (taking us to 12 and him to 7); DR (i can't find a way with petal right now :D), LED, Tutor, for 2nd tendrils;
Finishing us again on 1 life with one storm above needed, also 6 cards used on his turn 3.
So it's not that it is impossible. Pillar just shuts down a win through doomsday and ad nauseam.
And i'm not a combo player @legacy, i guess there's also an easier way through igg.
I've seen combo players @tourney who can't figure out basic DD piles or IGG configurations. Therefore blaming the deck while having the win in hand!
Such people will will get a serious headache from pillar.
But as you can see: IF you have some1 who is able to figure it out, no hate will really stop him.
can we all just calm down :(
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