Hey guys,
we are right now arguing about 3 different styles of the deck. I now try to give a summary about all the secondary engines. Imho playing NO and Survival will result in playing not enough elves and weaken our Glimpses.
There we go:
Natural Order Progenitus:
Pros: 1) It won`t die to spot removal and is immune to Maze
2) Engine just needs 4 slots and we can also get Regal Force
3) It pretty much dodges Counterbalance
4) Strong vs Engineered Plague and red Mass Burn
Cons: 1) We need 4 Mana and a creature to sac
2) It doesn`t impact the game right now and gives the opponent atleast one if not 2 turns
3) Adds 4-5 non Elves to the deck
4) Still vulnerable to Wrtah/Humilty/Perish/Moat
Survival Engine (Anger, Witness, Masked Admirers):
Pros: 1) It`s the most flexible engine
2) While comboing we can cycle unneeded elves in Card advantage elves like Visionary/Wirewood/Messanger
3) We can add some sideboard utility creatures to hate some decks (Macabre)
Cons: 1) It`s the slowest engine
2) Is an enchantment (Qasali, Grip)
3) Adds 6 non elves to the deck
4) We have to splash Taiga, which makes us vulnerable to Wastes and we have to play Fetches (atleast we are not blanking opposing wastes and open us up to wastes)
Messanger Engine (Priest and Warchiefs/Joraga Warcallers):
Pros: 1) We can switch rolls between aggro and Combo quite smoothly
2) It is card advantage
3) It offers most synergies inside the deck
Cons: 1) It dies horrible to pretty much all kinds of Mass removal
2) It has a hard time vs CB, because we only have one way to destroy CB and our Casting Cost are 1-3 (exluding Messanger)
PS:Perhaps someone who has better point and more accurate in spelling can then update this and put it perhaps on the first page.
I am open to new arguments and will update this List.
Survival is too slow and it rolls over to storm/ant/dredge decks. If we can find a way for survival to deal with those decks effectively then I'll play it. Any ideas? One of the reasons I play crop rotation is to have an instant way of playing Bojuka Bog/glacial chasm/wasteland to slow down combo.
imo your leaving a very important option. The Mirror Entity engine, which gives you an alternate way of going off. I will post my list later, first Im getting some sleep, since I only got 3 hours last 2 days.Originally Posted by unicoerner
Btw, In my testing 4 Canpoy, and 1 Pendelhaven rocked my world... Does make you more vulnerable to wasteland tho.. not sure!
The Survival Engine technically doesn't have to use fetchlands if going with Stomping Grounds, and since the Survivals/Angers usually takes the same spots as NO/Crossroads/Pact the space commitment is generally neglible (the shakier manabase and somewhat slower gameplan isn't, however).
The Big Mana/Draw Elves engine can in my experience handle mass removal just fine. The threat of combo means that the opposition has to react instantly to any big mana elf in play and Wirewood Symbiote generally allows for "safe" overextending in the early game, and once enough lands are in play in the midgame it can easily go Goblins on control decks simply by matching mass removal with mass card advantage and possibly haste effects. Counterbalance is a bigger problem, but since all sideboards should be starting with 4x Krosan Grip it still has a rather pleasant matchup game 2 unless the CB is followed by a very fast clock (especially as the ground will inevitably stall once the lock fall).
Mirror Entity isn't an engine in itself, it's a win condition that whilst in my opinion is superflous due to haste effects does have the most synergies with the deck if one for whatever reason insist to eschew the big mana elves for the Nettle engine.
I think I'm going to change my mana base, and 2 creatures around a smidge.
If I can get ahold of a Gaea's Cradel.
-3 Forest
+1 Gaea's Cradel
+2 Crop Rotation
-2 Sylvan Messanger
+2 Arbor Elf
Gaea's is obvious. . .ton of mana if tapped at the right time. Arbor Elf as another 1cc Elf. . .plus it can untap a forest. . . or Gaea's? It says specificly 'a Forest'. Crop Rotation to find Gaea's hopefully on 2nd turn.
SB I think I'm going to go
4 Krosan Grip
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Viridian Shaman
2 Viridian Zealot
1 ??
I dont like Cradle because it isn't good in your opening hand. i only run 12 lands, 3 ESG's. The reasoning is because the deck only needs 1 or 2 mana to do well. I still draw into multiple lands, don't ask how.
It is also crappy to draw a lands when comboing off.
I was thinking about Arbor Elf as well. Its another one drop, but it makes mana.
I run 1 Jorga, Warcaller, and it is nuts. I wouldn't want more because drawing multiples seems bad to me. But as a 1-of, and dropping it on turn 2-3 with 2-3 counters makes your elves all threats.
I really like the maindeck Leyline of Lifeforce, it is amazing.
Thoughts?
So instead of 14 lands, run 11 lands and my 4 ESGs. . .freeing up 3 slots. . . add 1 Joraga Warcaller, 1 Leyline (I like the look of it too. . .stops control decks from fucking with my shit. . .) and 1 Elven Visionary? or possibly just 2 Visionarys and 1 Leyline. . .
I just think Sylvan Messenger is too expensive and don't really want to run 4 of them.
I'm really confused sometimes. Just played a match against UW tempo, and actually a resolved NO wrecks so hard. At first game he was able to FoW it twice, and I had an Eternal Witness to resolve the third. Second game, it's just insane.. My opening was two Viosnarys, two Sentinels, a Heritage, a NO and verdant Catacombs. Turn two Progenitus and another possiblr 6-7 damage ftw haha. I don't know, for me, Discard is the worst, second worst thing is removal. Anything else.. Maybe Spell Snare can be bad, but we can play around it.
Wasteland is used basiclly everywhere, so my suggestion is try to avoid cards that gets destroyed by it. I'm using 11 lands and 4 ESG from the beginning, sometimes I have to mull to get at least one land, but along with 8 mana elves and 4 Quirions it works kinda well. And I really like the fetches, they really help to thin the deck and allow Glimpse to actually go off.
Neuad, play as many games as you can, experiment with card slots until you'll feel what works the best. There's no need to post every fix you make on your build :)
Well, I agree with you on that part at least :)
Running tap elves together with Crossroads and untappers/bouncers does just that. Perhaps. It's not that I'm conservative, but I like how Birchlore rangers/Sentinel/Heritage druid gets you around the lack of haste. It's a way to be less dependent on Crossroads, a card I don't like (see, I'm biased, heh). From what I grasp is that Crossroads is "a sort of" Glimpse; it's a card that lets you win. So with running Crossroads and Glimpse you have twice the number of Glimpses.
"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!"
This is my current list, and it is great.
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle sentinal
4 Llanowar Elf
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Wirewood symbiote
4 Elvhish Archdruid
3 Birchlore Ranger
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Elvish spirit guide
2 Elvish Visionary
1 Arbor Elf
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul/Win Condition
1 Jorga Warcaller
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Leyling of Lifeforce
2 summoner's pact
5 Fetch
7 Forest
With only 15 mana sources (Including ESG), you only need one mana and a 1 drop mana elf to make your hand work. I cut the lands so low because there are numerous times where I would combo, and then draw like 3 lands in a row and fizzle. It is great right now, and it works, I still draw lands. I cut the E-WItness for 1 Jorga the Warcaller. It is great when turn 3 rolls around and you drop him with 3 counters ans swing for lethal.
Anyone else have the land trouble? I am thinking of cutting a land for a 4th fyndhorn elf...
just recorded one random match.. i'll record more when i'll be not so lazy :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR18D3Eb8KQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0VuPY3hVNc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWuJGjm4KUo
I disagree here :)! The enitity version is IMO superior to others. It runs Wirewood Hivemaster, which is an incredibly strong card vs control decks and such. Its just another must counter. The enitity also opens up a stronger road to aggro, making you able to island walk over merfolk/ get the lord buffs when they got some lords down, is huge.
Also chord of calling is a pretty cool card, it opens up for some great sb options like Magus of the moon. I havent tested the ''new'' lists you guys come up with, so I cant say too much about those. Just that Elvish Archdruid is just as slow as Priest, and we never played that one either.. I know it gives +1/+1 but I think there are better elves for that spot.
~Maarten
Hm, I wonder why LSV was able to crush every other elf deck (all of them ran Entity) during PT Berlin. Entity isn't superior to others ;) There are simply many faster and better ways to pull the combo in Legacy, not Extended, from where Entity came.
Im not talking about just Entity. Im talking about the entire package around it, hivemaster, chord etc. And I prefer that to other builds. It gives you an alternate way of going infinite which is huge, it does make the deck a little more complicated, but thats not a problem once you get used to playing it.
Oh and LSV was able to crush all others more due to his Thoughtseizes in his board then his win-cons ;). Also I recall (not 100% sure anymore) that in some vids after the PT he made some videos about the deck where he said he would run hivemaster etc.
Im just not a fan of the latest lists I saw here. I dont think running 4 Archdruid is good, since it can totally ruin your combo when your going off off a birchlore or smthn since it costs 3 mana. The only way I see it working is when you play multiple crossroads, but you dont want to see those too much either.
Maybe the word 'superior' was wrong, I ment that I prefer that version over others ;). I also play the NO+Prog version from time to time, with banefire as kill which also works fine. But I miss hivemaster alot in that version, and entity too. I would have to cut too much in order to combine those. So I just switch between both versions ;).
Anyway, since I didnt test your version, I can only talk about the priest of titania/elvish archdruid stuff since I did test that and I wasnt impressed.
It's cool that you like that version the most, but your post looked like one of Jon Stewart's posts, which aren't healthy for the thread.
Well, again, the decklist and playstyle depends on your point of view to the deck. For me, putting Entity, Hivemaster, Chord, possible splashes like Horizon Canopy is too much. I wanted to make it as simple as possible. Natural Order is propably one of the dumbest cards in the game. It's so simple, and that's why I like it. That's it :)
Anyway. guys, post decklists, post every interesting card you might find, post every tech which comes to your mind. But please, I know that everyone down here thinks that their build is the best, leave these thoughts to yourself.
And we should work on a sideboard too.
horizon canopy isn't needed when playing entity.
Try out Staff of Domination. Just wanted to mention it. Depending on the build, you could go infinite life or card draw. That's the main reason I have Priests and Archdruids in my build.
It works well as a control element, since you can tap down problem creatures.
There's one nice drawing card out there.. Harmonize. But propably it's 4cc a big let down for us.. Anyway, thoughts?
With two more mana you can draw infinite cards in an Elf deck... Just wanted to point that out.
Although I have to explain how.
Requiring a Archdruid or Priest, Wirewood or Ranger and x elves with a Staff of Domination. Don't forget that it actually have other uses than drawing cards.
But I've also thought of harmonize, but concentration isn't that widley played now is it?
Im sorry but you look more biased about your version then I am about mine. I play NO from time to time, and still I like the Entity version more. And no you dont have to play anything but basic forests. I am thinking about testing with some Canopy's yes, a ''cycle'' land seems nice to me. Oh and what happend to Pendelhaven? Are we that scared of wasteland? :)
And the talk about ''not healthy'' posts in the thread is b*llcr*p imo. Now you ask people to post their lists and crazy ideas, but when I talk about my list, or John does about his its suddenly ''unhealthy''.
Just try the entity version out, it works. I'll post my list and sb if you are interested, but if you still think its unhealthy I wont ;).
~Maarten
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