For reference, I am running a list that is nearly identical to Saito's while I learn how to play it properly.
Originally Posted by Eksem
In my limited experience with this deck I have found 2x tendrils to be very useful. Sometimes you need to go for a mini tendrils to buy you another turn or two. Especially in the mirror.
The version I run uses these. I absolutely love an opening hand with a thoughtseize in it. I have been considering going 4 TS 2 duress, but unfortunately the life really matters with this deck. The discard just seems better to me than chants in almost all situations since it can affect decks without counterspells. A duress or TS has never been a dead card for me.
I bring in Dark Confidant against the mirror, reanimator, and cb top decks like thopter foundry that don't play a ton of creatures. He acts as a mini ad nauseum. I have actually won a few games just beating down with multiple DCs.
And now a couple questions for the more experienced combo players in the room.
I have one IGG in my board. I bring it in against non blue decks.
Should I board out one of my 2 Ad nauseum for it?
Has anyone cut SDT from their list or dropped it down to 1?
Was thinking about adding a MD answer to hate, such as a chain of vapor, since I have started to see more things like gaddock teeg main. Plus it would be nice to have the chain MD when reanimator gets their Iona and names black game one. Not sure what to cut for it, but a SDT doesn't seem like a bad idea.
Thanks in advance.
I'm playing with one IGG in SB too, usually I board out one tendrils for the IGG because if I am boarding IGG I want Fast wins(and a open hand with Adn seems very good).
Super Bizarros Team.
HUEHUEHUE BRBRBR. VIVA DILMA!!! EM NOME DE JESUS CRISTO!
SDT is one of the best cards in the deck because of its interactions with LED and Mystical Tutor. Going below 2 isn't ideal since you will not be able to fully abuse LED mana, and it doesn't really make to play 1 of something that you can't tutor for. It's also one of the reason why ANT doesn't really have any problems against discard aggro/Bx suicide. If you took them out, those matchups would be a lot worse.Has anyone cut SDT from their list or dropped it down to 1?
Was thinking about adding a MD answer to hate, such as a chain of vapor, since I have started to see more things like gaddock teeg main. Plus it would be nice to have the chain MD when reanimator gets their Iona and names black game one. Not sure what to cut for it, but a SDT doesn't seem like a bad idea.
Thanks in advance.
If you play Saito's list, you could go down to 3 Cabal Rituals if you wanted to add the Chain.
CoV sucks cuz it won't remove Cotv@1 which is the main threat. If you want to deal both with Iona (well, increase your chance, because he can also named black for Slaughter Pact/Deathmark) and with Hate MD, play Echoing Truth. It is the best answer to any random hate, I used to always side it in g2 when it is not in my MD anyway , all the more when I dont know what my opponent is siding against me.
The mini-tendrils to buy time is only necessary if you run Thoughtseize and have no Chants (Chant-walking also buys you a turn, actually), and even then it's rare. However, this reminds me that the Tendrils in my SB should probably be IGG instead.
I would always run 2 SDT, it does a lot of things.
You should definately make room for a MD Chain of Vapor (my favorite) or Wipe Away (everyone else's favorite). Cut a Tendrils ;)
This is the list I am planning on playing at my local's GPT. I need some small cards and an LED. It's a pretty stock list:
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Ponder
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Reverent Silence
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Thoughtseize
My biggest problem is revealing Ad Nauseam when I Ad Nauseam. I never want to hit it, but I seem too way too often.
Hitting Ad Nauseam is a necessary evil, over the course of many games it will end up balanced in your favor. The amount of games that having a second Ad Nauseam will win is much greater than the ammount of games you will lose to flipping it over with the first one.
A lot of people complain about hitting the second one, but as long as you are vigilant about what your life total is and how many storm you need to go off it shouldn't be a problem (or at least not as often as internet forums suggest). All you need to do is count and look for lines of play that allow you to flip the least amount of cards.
I've played the mirror match numerous times where my opponent had a clear victory and over flipped/ didnt consider the *best* line of play and complained about how bad his draw was. when he had the right cards if he played them in the right order. The biggest complaint from these players is always that they flip Ad Nauseam. Chances are that if this is a common theme in your games, losing to flipping Ad Nauseam, you are not playing optimally and should gold fish the deck more to get a feel for the minimum amount of cards you need to combo off. I suggest taking notes when you play games and when you goldfish so that you can look back over the situations you couldn't figure out and see what your other options are. This deck has more options that most people give it credit for and if you learn form you losses and really study the workings of the deck you can improve your win percentage greatly. Looking at the games you win in this way will also help improve your win percentage.
For people playing lists similar to Saitou's, what are the most common cards you board out? I have been playing his maindeck with a small change (-1 Ponder, +1 Sensei's Divining Top), and usually found myself boarding out the Ponder (Ponders, when I was playing 2) and the Infernal Tutor/ Lion's Eye Diamond package more than anything else, with the 4th Cabal Ritual being the other card that sits games two and three out.
The other topic I think should be discussed more is sideboard slots, it seems like ANT players are becoming more savvy when boarding in the mirror and that Sadistic Sacrament is losing value, are there cards that could be more useful against more decks while still giving equal value in the mirror?
Currently my board looks like this
4 Dark Confidant
2 Reverent Silence
2 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Extirpate
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sadistic Sacrament
I was thinking or adding a second removal spell, a second Extirpate, or a second Hurkyl's Recall in the place of Sadistic Sacrament, but of those only Extirpate has any possible impact on the mirror and I wouldn't really want to bring it in. Has Inquisition of Kozilek been good for anyone? Maybe a Pithing Needle? These all seem like bad ideas...
If you're adding bounce MD because of any other reason other than to fight Staxx it should be Chain of Vapor. It just does so much:
- Bounces anything for 1 mana
- Costs just 1
- Good against Reanimator
- Adds storm with 0 mana artifacts
My favourite play with it is, play 2 or 3 zero-mana artifacts and then Chain each one back to your hand sacrificing all your lands. Then with the last copy you bounce their hatebear (works even under Canonist) and then proceed to go off.
In my testing of the mirror match, I found that Dark Confidant had a greater impact than Sad Sac. Almost without fail, the player who drew and resolved more copies of Dark Confidant would win - even if the opponent cast Sad Sac. This is partly because Bob is a trump to Sad Sac, and also because Bob draws disruption and this pins the opponent down while pecking away at his life total.
Of course if the opponent does not have Bob or doesn't board it in, Sad Sac is much better. But if both players have Bob, I found that not having Sad Sac at all isn't a big deal. Taking Sad Sac out of the board is much easier when considering that the card only has use in one real match.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
Hello all, I plan on playing this deck at a couple tournaments this weekend and although I feel fairly comfortable playing it, I still have no idea how to sideboard (what to take out specifically). I am playing Saito's list from Grand Prix Madrid, could anyone give some general advice on how to sideboard or tell me what is generally cut for the sideboarded cards. Thanks for any help!
I've been tinkering with some changes to my DDANT and I decided to scrap the DD plan tomorrow because it hasn't been treating me too well last weeks.
My new list is this:
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 SDT
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Chrome Mox
4 Silence
3 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Duress
1 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Death Mark
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ad Nauseam
Anyone got some constructive criticism? Any obvious flaws you can see?
The SB is designed to fight a large and wide-open Meta, I'm thinking about replacing 1 Death Mark with a basic Forest, though, so I can fight Dragon Stompy or similiar decks. Do you think this is a viable consideration, given my choice of Fetches?
@Rico Suave.... So according to your argument Sad Sac is better than Confidant... If that is what you meant to say, why do you play Confidant over Sad Sac? I can't really think of many matches I would rather have a Confidant over a Sad Sac. Can you please list your reasons for Confidant?
4 Chrome Mox is too much. Cut 1.
4 Cabal rituals are, IMO, too much. Cut 1.
8 cantrips are too few. Run 1-2 more.
Chain of vapor is horrile because it does not even bounce Chalice (Counterbalance was obvious). If you don't want to run Wip Away or Rushing River, pack at least Echoing Truth.
Basic Forest is not needed against Dragon Stompy, if you want the best solution against that deck, it's called either Slaughter pact (for Magus of the Moon) or a second Hurkyl's recall.
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I would advise you to reread what I wrote, because I clearly did not say Sad Sac is better than Confidant. In fact, I said the opposite:
"In my testing of the mirror match, I found that Dark Confidant had a greater impact than Sad Sac. Almost without fail, the player who drew and resolved more copies of Dark Confidant would win - even if the opponent cast Sad Sac."
It is not a matter of Bob vs. SadSac. They fulfill entirely different purposes. I was merely stating that Sad Sac's purpose isn't strong enough to justify SB space. It only seems to steal games against weak Reanimator players or storm pilots who mistakenly exclude Bob from their decks (but you're already advantaged over them if you have Bob).
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
Totally agree with Piceli.
Rebuild can also be good as a second Hurkyll, and it does not take Cotv@2 after a Cotv@1, which usually means you've lost.
Last edited by Azdraël; 06-12-2010 at 06:25 PM.
I won the GPT Syracuse today. Here's the list:
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Ponder
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforests
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 City of Traitors
Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Sadistic Sacrement
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Deathmark
1 Extirpate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
Fairly standard B/U. I choose to play chain as maindeck bounce because its really good at building storm against control decks and to keep the mana cost low. Chain is not there to deal with maindeck chalice or counterbalance. Its there to stop things from auto-winning against you, such as Iona, Teeg, or Trini. Chalice @ 1 can still be played around, its not a hard lock. (Not to mention, if your oppenent is running maindeck chalice at 1, your probably fucked anyways.) Theres better things in the sideboard for them. When it comes to the sideboard, I choose Xantid Swarm because most of the time your oppenent will board out creature removal, and makes going off turn 2/3 pretty easy. Rushing river was my only real anti-counterbalance card, which is probably less than ideal, but trying to go for ad naus against them is a bad idea anyways. Deathmark was there for Teeg and Iona (I wanted to make sure I had plenty of hate in both blue and black). Ill-Gotten Gains was for the aggro matchups.
I certainly didn't get lucky in my matchups today. They were as following:
Round 1: Mirror (but with R for Burning Wish)
2-1
(1-0)
Round 2: Merfolk
2-0
(2-0)
Round 3: Reanimator
2-1
(3-0)
Round 4: Dredge
ID
(3-0-1)
Round 5: U/W/g Control Landstillish?
He refused to draw for rating reasons, so we played it
1-2
(3-1-1)
Top 8: NO Prog
2-1
(4-1-1)
Top 4: Dredge
2-1
(5-1-1)
Finals: U/W/g Control Landstillish? (Same guy as Round 5)
2-0
(6-1-1)
If anyones got questions, please feel free to ask!
When running the Saito list, in which matchups are you guys boarding in dark confidants? The mirror of course and probably also reanimator, but when else? Du you also bring them in against Bant decks or Merfolk?
I actually bring it in against anything with blue in it.
I bring bob in matches where I expect the game to go long or me to be at a serious card disadvantage. Against mefolk and reanimator, I don't expect a long game. Both of their clocks are pretty quick, therefore dark confidant isn't really worth siding in. As for Bant decks, on the play I'll usually bring them in, on the draw I wont. Also depends on how I expect my opponent to play. If I feel like he's more likely to play slow and setup cb/top, I'll bring him in. If I expect warmonk beats/early natural order, I probably won't.
I board in BoB vs Merfolk and any blue ,the 2-3 cards you get are sometimes all you need to push thru counters. He trumps mirrors. He is played in Vintage as a maindeck slot for a few decks for his ability to give CA and win attrition wars.
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