[Deck] Survival

[Kesta]

I made 3-1-1 top4 and split in final last sunday at a 13ppl tournament.

I packed a Wuascht Survival with Hypnotist like M. Thiel at BOM.

R1: nuno (a friend) with enchantress
G1 and 2 are the same: discard (hypno is a must)+ deed then yosei lock

R2: ??? Eva green wo goyf
G1 and 2 are the same: Pdeed won me the CA battle

R3: ??? Mana combo with emrakul and Maga
g1 and 2 i lost to maga 22/22 when comes into play

R4: samuel with big blue
G1 i have the match in hands with pdeed. I discarded a top with CT and i played mine to optimize my draw.
G2 he get jace top CB and FoW everything then won with jace
G3... Time but he was in better position to win

R5: ??? eternal garden
G1 he draw nuts i deed nuts then yosei lock
G2 he mulls to 5 i installed yosei lock fast

top4:1/2 seb emrakul tell polymorph
g1 and 2 i manage to install survival with every answer to his threat

final split wih samuel R4

Pdeed is a must coz you can control when you want to crack. You can fetch it with rector which is a win if you have hypnotist (won me 2-3 games)

SdT is really good in control version of survival imho. Usually you dont need it the first turns but to win the race in the long game its a must. With fetch rector STE explorer and SotF you can schuffle so many times.

Well the deck is really fun and likely to play. Not easy to chose the right answer in the right time but you can win a lot of MU except combo which is really hard.

Sry for my bad english i didnt take too long to correct mistakes

[Muela]

Now, a question for Survival players who run Sensei's Divining Top: Why?

I never even considered running Sensei's Divining Top. I'm asking 'Why?', you might say, 'Why not?';

Survival decks tend to be rather mana hungry, and Top seems to be just another mana sink that is unneeded.

First of all, thanks for the toughts about the Deed =)

Regarding your question, I have found SDT effect a really awesome way to go. If you play a U Survival you would have brainstorm. However, in GBR SA (with and without BW) and GBWr SA I have found myself in quite top decks-mode, or even with a decent hand but flooding or lacking mana... but the most important scenario to me is the time where I need a second creature in hand (apart from squee) to go to the final blow. That's the time where it shines to me.

Therefore, I try to fit in 2-3 (never 4) SDT effects. Usually 1 Mirri's Guile (less mana hungry) and 1 SDT. I don't want 4 because I don't see it as "I need 1 in my opening", actually I would only drop it as first turn if it is Mirri's and I can't make a t2 surv+G.

Edit: @Kesta, Congratulations for the result :-) BTW, is BoM Thiel's list posted somewhere?

[Kesta]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post457876

[1mpulse]

Therefore, I try to fit in 2-3 (never 4) SDT effects. Usually 1 Mirri's Guile (less mana hungry) and 1 SDT. I don't want 4 because I don't see it as "I need 1 in my opening", actually I would only drop it as first turn if it is Mirri's and I can't make a t2 surv+G.

I kinda figured Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library might be better choices, due to the fact they require no mana.

Although I guess if your heavly relying on Deed, SDT might be better in the long run.

I guess I've always just disliked SDT in anything non-blue control. It just seems like you could be doing something else.

[Kesta]

Thats the point. If you play Pdeed SDT > mirri or sylvan orherwise i think they are almost equal, 'coz SDT is hardly unkillable but mirri and sylvan will get some disenchant and save your survival?

Well if you dont play Pdeed then your more in an aggro build of survival that doesnt rely on library manipulation Imho.

[Muela]

I think SDT > Mirri's > Sylvan

At least, in Survival decks. However, I see SDT better than Mirri's even without Deed. When you are looking for something (i.e. StP) the point of activate SDT+survival+activate before ur draw step it is a great advantage.

About Sylvan, I think that 2CC plays against a build where 2CC is the most important point. I'm pretty sure that a mediocre 7 including one mirri's is way better than including sylvan. In addition, the extra cards seem to me as a late game resource, and if you are in the late game you should be able to overwhelm your opponent.

@1mpulse I strongly recommend you to test with 2 SDT effects and post back your impressions. Mine are that they really deserve the slots.

[Kesta]

I've not seen that like you Muela, but you convinced me! SDT is way better than guile which is better than library.

But i stay on my position which is aggro build of Survival doesn't require SDT and co.

[1mpulse]

I'll test it out after I get my some byes for the GP.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to play Survival again for GP: Columbus, due to having so many strong matchups against what is winning. I just need to not lose the dice roll against Lands.

[marclark]

Any thoughts on the 4c Survival List at the Seattle 5k?

[1mpulse]

Any thoughts on the 4c Survival List at the Seattle 5k?

Yeah.

Eww.

[conboy31]

Any thoughts on the 4c Survival List at the Seattle 5k?

I don't really care for the deck because of the expected issues:
A) 4 color manabase
B) higher number of dead/marginal creatures w.out survival: dreadnaught, man-o-war, anger, genesis, spore frog, scryb ranger, wonder, squee. This is opposed to GW survival that has main deck squee, retainers, iona.
C) 3 stifle with no LD (not that the deck could use them, they are there for random utility and phrexian)

Although, I would absolutely sleeve it up before completely dismissing it. Can't criticize the results, though the stacks player and one of the zoo players seemed to make some marginal plays when I viewed via ggslive feed.

[Muela]

Any thoughts on the 4c Survival List at the Seattle 5k?

At first glance, the pros I see are:

1.- It seems like the best survival deck against Storm combos

2.- It seems like the best survival deck against Dark Depths

3.- Iona on white/black doesn't affect it.

4.- The races must be huge and unexpected (anger + wonder).


On the other hand, the cons:

1.- Lack of removal, and based on dmg (sharpshooter and FtK).

2.- Too much graveyard dependant

3.- Too much survival dependant


Overall, I guess the build deserves to be tested. Congratulations for the result to Ben Jensen :)

[sdematt]

I was there at the SCG 5k, and I sat beside Ben. I've played him before, he's a really nice guy, and the deck was the nuts. I was playing Stax against another guy, so I couldn't talk for long, but we briefly chatted while he was playing. He made some pretty insane plays, and I'm glad Survival came in the Top 16. Hasty, flying WarMonk? Me like. I agree with the fact the manabase is shaky, but like I said, it looks pretty fun :P

Mind you, if I would have played him, pretty sure Dutch Stax would most likely prey on that manabase :D

But, nice job Ben!

I've been playing a Jund coloured Survival list using some of the cards out of Standard Jund (never seen some of the creatures before, but the deck seemed decent in standard, so I thought I'd give the creatures a try)

3 Bayou
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold (Shriekmaw/Stingcourger/Marauder recycle)

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf (seems good)
4 Putrid Leech (with Confidant and this guy, the deck can get in that nasty life region, but this guy can be quite good)
2 Shriekmaw (removal)
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Eternal Witness
1 Stingscourger (against Iona on black)
1 Fleshbag Marauder (against Steel Wind, Inkwell)
3 Birds of Paradise

4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Lightning Bolt (removal, aggro)
3 Terminate
3 Top (seems like cheating with Confidant)


So far, I've had some nice results. I'm trying to keep the curve down since I'm running Bob, so no FtK or Genesis (ina previous trial, I was just getting hosed off Confidant). The deck plays very aggressive, and Bloodbraid into hasty Tarmogoyf is just wrong. Bloodbraiding into anything you can Bloodbraid into is usually epic (of course, minus elfing into Birds or Top is kind of lame).

What do you think, in general? It's pretty fun to play, and I've been in the process of tweaking it.

-Matt

[Muela]

@sdematt Here are my thoughts about the build you posted:

- I don't like the Volrath's plan. There's no way to find that singleton and you many need that recurrsion quite often. In addition, there's only one MD eternal witness.

- It surprises to me the lack of searchable lifegaining creatures.

- 4 confidants with that mana curve and no "proper" way to sac him (i.e. cabals or something that doesn't mean to waste 1 of your own removal) seems way too risky

- bloodbraids are really random: squee, extra confidants (with one in play), extra survivals, unwanted eternal, unwanted fleshbag, unwanted stingscouger... of course top can work this out, but that means more mana to spend and get fully tapped (= no survival answer) or more turns to wait.


On the other hand, it seems like you can do really awesome things with the build :D.

Taking into account that I have not played ever this deck, I think I would do some changes if I were to play it:
+1 Top (it seems like you really need this in play: confidants, blood, finding that removal, survival)
+1 Big Game Hunter (lower curve than shriekmaw, awesome tricks, goes through Iona and counterbalance...)
+1 Genesis (it seems like you really need this guy, besides if you are in a hurry with confidants, try to put him in grave/hand first of all)
+1 Bayou

-1 Shriekmaw
-1 Putrid
-1 Confidant
-1 Volrath's

[sdematt]

I didn't include BGH because I was pretty sure you still had to play him, just for an alternate cost, so Iona DOES affect him. But, I could be totally wrong, and I really hope I am.

-Matt

[Kesta]

I would make the same changes as Muela (Genesis is an autoinclude in such a deck, it's way better than Stronghold).

I tried Bloodbraid too, but it was always a "too much", usually you don't need the haste (anger in grave) and when you get a card you didn't want, it cost too much for a 3/2 (sure it can solve tricky situatuions, but too random).

I would add 1-2 Kitchen Finks too, coz it rise your Burn/Zoo MU enough to decent. I would play some discard too, 4 Cabal therapy and 3 thoughtseize is the package that might help more than Bolt+terminate. BGH is a good choice, not sure about the Iona on black and the madness, i have to check.

--->
+1 Big Game Hunter
+1 Genesis
+1 Bayou
+4 Cabal Therapy
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Kitchen Finks
+1 Birds of Paradise

-1 Stingscourger
-1 Shriekmaw
-1 Volrath's
-2 Bloodbraid Elf
-3 Lightning Bolt
-3 Terminate
-1 Putrid leach
-1 Maelstrom Pulse

I know it change a bit the deck, but I think it add better sinergy, discard is so good in survival packing black. You need a 4th BoP if you want enough acceleration and CT feeding. You aleready have a good MU against agro that you don't need terminate and bolt. Maybe a cut between discard and blast?

[Nelis]

Why is Genesis way better? It's plus side is that you can search for it with survival. But Volrath's Stronghold is more flexible. It costs less to activate and activation is at instant speed.

I think it really depends on the way the deck is constructed.

[Kesta]

n°1 Genesis is a creature, synergy with SotF --> search for it, 1copy of stronghold is only random (i know it will come in long game where it shines but genesis comes when you need it), if you want to establish a lock (spore frog, marauder, shriekmaw,...) you don't want to depend on 1 copy of the recurring engine
n°2 Genesis activation cost G, more avaiable color in SotF decks
n°3 Genesis activation bring the creature directly in your hand (extra card ---> CA)

those reasons are the first i see, but there's much more.

[1mpulse]

What do you think, in general? It's pretty fun to play, and I've been in the process of tweaking it.

-Matt

I honestly don't see this deck going anywhere.

Bloodbraid Elf doesn't really work in Legacy, unless you build a deck decated to maximising her Cascade.

Volrath's Stronghold is a poor choice. Gets hit by Wasteland, unfetchable, only produces colorless mana, and is in a splash color, where as Genesis fits. Kesta has most of the reasons why Genesis is the best at what he does.

Putrid Leech is bad. It can't beat Goyf, and will cost you games vs Zoo. Also, running 4 Confidant, 4 Leech and fetches without any form of lifegain is just asking to drop games.

Kitchen Finks. Where is it? Helps beat aggro.

3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Lightning Bolt (removal, aggro)
3 Terminate

These are all poor choices of removal for this archtype.

[sdematt]

@ Impulse:

I see it improving in the near future, actually. Also, what build are you running? I've taken a look at the BoM build and it seems cool :D

-Matt