[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Neuad]

The question becomes why? What is it that your losing to so badly that you feel you need have all that hate against? Jitte? If theres really that much landstill or whatever thats packing that much goblins hate around you, play a different deck. But the green splash doesn't really help with the big stuff, such as Iona, Goyf, Sphinx, Emrakul, Progenitus, etc. Thats where the black and white splashes really shine. Personally, I feel the black splash is better because swords can't be tutored for, but it still has its benefits. Krosan grip? I wouldn't think so.

I just hate that Jitte is such a game-breaker for Goblins, but I see your point.

So what about leaving the blacksplash for Warren Weirding. . .and tossing in some Taigas for a Tin Street Holligan or 2. . .and SBing KGrip. . .

Currently thinking

// Lands
3 [ROE] Mountain (1)
3 [R] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [DDE] Swamp (4)
3 [R] Taiga
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

my only thought is wastelands would destroy my mana base. . . now locally I've heard wasteland isn't used very much but if I decide to take this deck to the columbus GP.

-3 Taiga
+3 Mnt
-2 Tin Street
+2 Warren Weirding


-3 KGrip
+3 Pyrokienese

Unless you think I'd be fine.

I know someone suggested not playing Kiki or Lightning Crafter, but I think they are both useful cards, atleast in my playtesting.

Say I have 5 goblins out including a piledriver. Drop a kiki > tap into another piledriver = 7 goblins in play. Full attack = rape.

Crafter is 3 free damage someone has to take or kill the thing revealing yet another ringleader or matron.

[Endril]

@Neuad: I don't agree with people that say Lightning Crafter and Kiki Jiki are bad cards. But I DO agree with people that don't run them. You've already got two to three 5 drops and four 4 drops... anything else, and you start to clog up your deck. And Lightning Crafter and Kiki Jiki certainly aren't replacements for goblin ringleaders and commanders.

And you will run in to wastelands... believe me. But I feel safe enough running 4 mountains and 1 swamp myself. I just make sure to fetch the basics unless I'm sure I can get away with grabbing duals. For that same reason, I'd up your bloodstained mire count to 4. And I think 20 lands is a little low. 18 lands that aren't wastelands sometimes leaves me wanting more, so I couldn't imagine dropping down to 16.

And I partially agree with the players that say you can just play around artifacts. You can usually get some creatures down and have some removal ready before they equip their jitte, and a lot of other artifacts don't effect you much. But I would feel a lot safer if I at least had the option of tutoring for a tin street (or scrapper in my case since I'm BR). There's other nasty artifacts, like crucible and shackles, and I'm starting to see more of them in the large metas.

You were considering dropping green, which was a change I recently made. But if you're not running ports, I think you can get away with 3 colors. And the grips are useful against the nasty artifacts I mentioned before as well as enchantments like solitary confinement and COP: Red. I'd say you could go either way on that one. But considering how much we lose to zoo, pyrokinesis wouldn't hurt.

Maybe you could make these changes:
-1 Lightning Crafter
-1 Kiki Jiki
-1 Tin Street
+1 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Wooded Foothills
+1 Warren Weirding

[Neuad]

I could run ports as my friend is getting a playset soon that he won't be using right away, but I'm trying not to rely on my friends for cards for my deck. . .which is where my Duals/fetches are coming from.

Would running ports be a bad idea or nay?

[Endril]

It depends on your preference really. But you've got 15 red sources as it is, and I wouldn't recommend running any less than 14-15. It's great when you can drop a first turn vial/lackey and then keep them off 2 mana on turn 2 and 3 mana on turn 3. Some times the whole game can be won just off of that. But plenty of goblin players win without them, and if I was running 3 colors I probably wouldn't run them. I currently have 3 ports (would be 4 if it wasn't for my swamp) in my BR deck.

[Neuad]

Well then when/if he gets them maybe I'll play around with dropping green and adding Ports

Playing BRG Gobbies on MWS I'm having a blast. Wasteland hurts a little but not too bad.

[ScatmanX]

So, with your last posted list, I don't think that manabase is optimal. Let's have a look:

3 [ROE] Mountain (1)
3 [R] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [DDE] Swamp (4)
3 [R] Taiga
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

you have: 2 MD black spells, and 3 Sb. 2 MD green spells (tin-street) and 3 Sb. Why then you have 1 Swamp? For maybe 5 cards? I just don't think it is worth it. (and don't think you do to, otherwise you'd be running a Forest also). Of all the decks you'd sb in Perish, only 2 have land disruption (Tempo Thresh and New Horizons), so I don't think the basic Swamp is needed in that list (mine, for instance, has total of 12 black cards md+sb, so it is more acceptable). Also, if you were to run that Swamp, run 4 Bloodstained Mire.

Now, I think that, G1, you ought to tutor Weirdings way more often that Tin-Street. Considering that and the Sb, I'd run more black than green.
And, the last thing: Endril is wright. 20 lands is way to few for goblins. For me, 21 is acceptable, 22 or 23 are great, and 24 is acceptable.

So, I think you cold do something like this with it:

3-5 [ROE] Mountain
3 [R] Badlands
3-4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [R] Taiga
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
0-2 Port

Yes, Port can be used in 3 color builds. But I'd recommend it only if you had 22+lands

Now, if I may suggest something in the SB also, without changing the number of hate cards to each specific deck:

SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

Explosives come in place of K.Grip and Liege, because: 1- you use Liege against Plague (and maybe zoo/mirror). Well, EE destroys Plague, and is good against Zoo (not so much against mirror). 2 - the only 2 enchantments/artifacts you ought want to destroy with K.Grip and can't with EE are Moat and Humility. Decks that use those, we already have a positive MU. And you still have 2 K.Grip left. EE is way more versatile, once you can put it in against Dredge, Combo, Zoo, Folk...

[Neuad]

My SB was actually still being worked on, I was unhappy with Pyrokinesis anyway.

Playing around with Mono-red, BR, and GBR all on MWS I think I'm going to settle on BR for now.

// Lands
5 [ROE] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [P3] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 4 [FD] Engineered Explosives

[ScatmanX]

list

That is a great list. I just don't think EE is worth it in a 2 color build. Maybe 1-2, but against what would you want 4?

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

This is why I play Black/Red, and also why I play quad Instigators instead of the awful Chieftain, who is too slow for the Zoo matchup and really only improves exactly 1 matchup out of all the ones listed two posts up: The Goblin mirror.

If you're going to handle Zoo with mono-red, you need speed. Lightning Bolt, or more Stingscourgers, or Mogg War Marshals all help. Bolt's the best of the three for the matchup, though Stingscourger has more uses in general (And is sexy against Emrakul and random things like that.) Both are good in Mono Red.

I don't have nearly as much problem with Zoo. At all. I have 4 Warren Weirdings to help stem the tide early, and my Vials are much more dangerous at low numbers due to the threat of EOT Instigators. For the record, this is the list I run.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

Thanks for the suggestion, bolt works wonders against zoo.
I do not quite agree that the chieftain only improves the mirror. 3 probably are too much (there already are 8 fixed cards in the 3 mana slot), I did cut one. But 2 extra haste lords do improve the deck plan, especially for mono R lists. Haste is very important plus they do improve the damage output quite a bit and allow nasty combat tricks with instigator. Seeing him being removal target so often tells me people do fear him.
About the question of 2 or 3 sgc: I do think 3 are too much. Drawing into 2 of them early slows the deck, you want to topdeck him, not having him in your opening hand often. There are quite many games that end before dropping the fifth land. An unanswered instigator can drop him with matron anyway.
Instigators should be an auto 4 of, like I said before, the second best 2 mana goblin!

About the color splashing: are there any numbers about how well which color splashes did in tournaments?
To my experience mana denial hurts goblins pretty bad. Shutting up stifle and wasteland helps in a lot of matchups. I am specificly thinking about merfolk, nogoyf, canadian thresh, team america here.
Weirding does superior against reanimator and progenitus but worse against burn (PoP)
What do you think?
[edit]my current list for anyone interested:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
6 [B] Mountain (3)
6 [B] Mountain (1)
6 [B] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 [B] Lightning Bolt

[Endril]

I think that list is pretty solid. I prefer more than 6 removal cards MD, and I believe pyrokinesis is better in the SB than L Bolt. I run L. Bolt in the main myself, but pyrokinesis can take out multiple targets and it's free. I'd rather see it than bolt against merfolk and goblins, and it's almost as good against zoo. But with the right amount of luck and a good pilot, that deck could get some wins.

Concerning mana denial, I've played 60+ matches with my BR deck and I've had 1 land stifled. I wouldn't worry too much about it. And depending on what tournament you're going to, you're not likely to run into threshold or team america. They've gone down in popularity over the last couple months. New Horizons could be an issue though. And while I don't get stifled often, I do get hit by wastelands often. My answer is usually to fetch basics, but I sometimes have to keep a hand with a dual or two and that's when the wastelands hurt. But I think weirding makes it worth it. It helps against Zoo, Merfolk, Countertop, New Horizons and Reanimator, and that's almost half of my meta.

[Neuad]

That is a great list. I just don't think EE is worth it in a 2 color build. Maybe 1-2, but against what would you want 4?

-3 EE's
+3 Pyrokenieses (sp?)

or 2 and 2. . .?

[ScatmanX]

-3 EE's
+3 Pyrokenieses (sp?)

or 2 and 2. . .?

I do think Knesis is a good idea, because you have to few cards to side in against the mirror, and it is good in so many other MU's. you just have to play it extremely carefully.

[Neuad]

Well playing this list on MWS I really like it, I'm bringing it to the local legacy tourney and going to playtest it against some of the decks there inbetween rounds. . .hopefully I can settle and have it all bought before Sunday so I can enter the GPT!


What do you guys side out for the GY hate and whatnot?

I had some much trouble narrowing it down to 60 for my MB I have no clue what I should take out for SB. . . .

[GoboLord]

Well playing this list on MWS I really like it, I'm bringing it to the local legacy tourney and going to playtest it against some of the decks there inbetween rounds. . .hopefully I can settle and have it all bought before Sunday so I can enter the GPT!


What do you guys side out for the GY hate and whatnot?

I had some much trouble narrowing it down to 60 for my MB I have no clue what I should take out for SB. . . .

Against decks which dont have any creatures you can board you removal-goblins.
Depending on my opponents deck i sometimes board Chieftain an 1 - 2 SGCs. You should probably think about boarding Instigators if you really play to bring in EE on 2.

[ScatmanX]

Established Decks?!?!
Common! More people need to play this deecckk!!!

@Neuad: will post SB thoughts later. No time now. (I assume your list is the last you posted in this page, aswell as the sb)


// Lands
5 [ROE] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [P3] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Knesis

So:
Goblins: +3 Knesis + 1 Liege (+1EE); -3 Weirdings - 1(2) Piledrivers
Folk: +3 Knesis + 1 Liege +1EE; -2 Chieftain - 3 WW or -1 Instigator - 1 SGC - 1 Ringleader (I personally keep Weirdings in, because we can usually kill all of the folks - just be aware not to hit Mutavault with it)
Elves: +3 Perish +3 Knesis; - 2 Ringleader - 2 Piledriver - 2 Weirdings
Dredge: +1 Relic + 2 Tormords + 1 EE + 3 Knesis; -1 Instigator - 3(4) Ringleader - x Weirdings

It may seem weird to side out Ringleader against elves or dredge but, the reasoning are: 1- they're fast as hell, so card advantage has no use if you don't get the chance to use them; 2- we bring in too many non-goblins, making them less-good (not bad, but less-good).

well, this are my takes for now. Any specific mach?

[Neuad]

I made a few changes to my SB as I bought the cards, talked to my friends and people who know our meta extremely well and looked through friends cards.

SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Knesis

-3 Perish
-1 EE
+1 Relic
+3 Sphere of Resistance

Perish may be better then Sphere but A the card store didn't have any Perish's and my friends had 3 Sphere's

and B my meta is very combo heavy so more combo hate is good.

[daPaule]

and B my meta is very combo heavy so more combo hate is good.

Then why are you going to play a deck without blue ?

[Nessaja]

Perish may be better then Sphere but A the card store didn't have any Perish's and my friends had 3 Sphere's

and B my meta is very combo heavy so more combo hate is good.

Strictly worse then Thorn of Amethyst against combo (for goblins). And I don't like using that term.

[Neuad]

Strictly worse then Thorn of Amethyst against combo (for goblins). And I don't like using that term.

I know, but like I said they were free and I didn't find any perish's, so I'll upgrade if I get the chance.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Clearly, the two second-best cards to play against combo, based on power level alone are Pyrostatic Pillar and Mindbreak Trap. Both have advantages - but from experience I will tell you that a resolved Pillar is almost GG's for a storm deck. It costs probably 4 life just to try to remove the damn thing from the board. But if you are more concerned about them trying to win turn 1, or turn 2 on the play, then clearly Trap is better for you, giving you at least a shot to stop them.