[B&R] Mystical Tutor banned / Illusionary Mask and Grim Monolith unbanned

[Maveric78f]

Could you imagine Force of Will being banned and the ANT players say, "oh shut up, just use Foil or Thwart."

The strength of ANT and Reanimator is not the justification for banning MT if you want my opinion. The motivation is to make non-blue decks playable by removing those two archetypes.

And FoW being banned, combo would be unstoppable. Foil is not good enough (and Thwart can't be played before turn 3).

[Aleksandr]

ryo, use more your Shift and use less your dot. It will make your quotes much more easier to read.

Problem with the last ban is not in MT (honestly, it deserved ban more than Entomb), but with the overall b/r policy in last few years.

Flash disaster.
Gush.
Now this one with MT.

I really don't care if someone junks in his trousers because he can finally play his non-FoW Minotaur_tribal.dec. There is too much instablity and I am really just this close from quiting, or maybe shifting to some more stable format, of which the wise-heads of WotC do not take care.

And before you (or anyone else for that matter) starts with the usual "lol, lol, so just quit, we don't care" or "kekeke, how does it feel to be screwd, honey?" let me tel you this:
Another part of what made this game (and namely Legacy) appealling just died. That's all. and as lomg as it is a matter of taste, there's no point of arguing.

EDIT:

I thought the whole premise of Legacy and eternal formats was to play with the best cards ever printed.

Could you imagine Force of Will being banned and the ANT players saying, "oh shut up, just use Foil or Thwart"?

This.

[MMogg]

The strength of ANT and Reanimator is not the justification for banning MT if you want my opinion. The motivation is to make non-blue decks playable by removing those two archetypes.

Do you find a source that shows that to be their justification? I was under the impression they didn't announce why Mystical Tutor got the axe.

Edit: I really can't understand this, actually. You say it wasn't about the strength of those decks . . . but those are pretty much the only decks that use it. So if it isn't the strength of those decks keeping other decks from being viable (in your opinion) than what else can it be? To say "to make non-blue decks playable" intimates they are not playable now. That's simply not the case.

[jazzykat]

The banning of MT was completely uncalled for. The metagame was healthily shifting between a bunch of different archetypes letting Tier 1 decks share top 8's with some other stuff.

ALSO, if Standard cards are so available then why is Jace the mindsculptor almost $90?

They aren't directly making money from Legacy, so from the looks of it they are hamstringing it slowly. First they take away MT. What might be next, If lands begins to dominate they ban Tabernacle because of cost reasons. Then zoo will be everywhere so they ban what...? Nacatl?

It's been said before but this is a VERY SCARY precedent. The DCI will for no reason every three months may randomly ruin a deck (or two) while everyone but possibly them thinks the meta is healthy and fun.

[ryO!]

ryo, use more your Shift and use less your dot. It will make your quotes much more easier to read.

Problem with the last ban is not in MT (honestly, it deserved ban more than Entomb), but with the overall b/r policy in last few years.

Flash disaster.
Gush.
Now this one with MT.

I really don't care if someone junks in his trousers because he can finally play his non-FoW Minotaur_tribal.dec. There is too much instablity and I am really just this close from quiting, or maybe shifting to some more stable format, of which the wise-heads of WotC do not take care.

And before you (or anyone else for that matter) starts with the usual "lol, lol, so just quit, we don't care" or "kekeke, how does it feel to be screwd, honey?" let me tel you this:
Another part of what made this game (and namely Legacy) appealling just died. That's all. and as lomg as it is a matter of taste, there's no point of arguing.

EDIT: This.

I never said anything like "lol lol quit", i ve just pointed out the fact that people always overreact tower any kind of "change". I ve also admited that that one in particular wasn't needed at all but that doesn't make legacy a dead format. Yet indeed i feel sorry for ANT players, but every single time the B&R list will change there will always be "collateral damages" regardless those are needed or not.
About mogg statement on which you follow up on, i do agree that some of wizzard policies seem questionable.

[neon_havoc]

Is anyone else a fan of this?

[Maveric78f]

Do you find a source that shows that to be their justification? I was under the impression they didn't announce why Mystical Tutor got the axe.

Edit: I really can't understand this, actually. You say it wasn't about the strength of those decks . . . but those are pretty much the only decks that use it. So if it isn't the strength of those decks keeping other decks from being viable (in your opinion) than what else can it be? To say "to make non-blue decks playable" intimates they are not playable now. That's simply not the case.

Just my assumption.

The BOMIV breakdown.



U decks are far too much efficient. I agree that Reanimator and ANT were not impressive because they were anticipated with a lot of U-decks. Removing those 2 non-U decks predators (less true for reanimator) just solves this problem. I did not expect this but I find it to be a smart move.

[Aleksandr]

MMogg, I wanna be your buddy.

[Maveric78f]

They aren't directly making money from Legacy, so from the looks of it they are hamstringing it slowly. First they take away MT. What might be next, If lands begins to dominate they ban Tabernacle because of cost reasons. Then zoo will be everywhere so they ban what...? Nacatl?

This is just wrong. Zoo is nothing but taking advantage of the strong presence of U in the current metagame. As I said, banning MT will reduce the U-based deck domination and thus Zoo will not be that well fitted to the metagame.

Zoo : just eat my Pernicious Deed and my Kitchen Finks, two cards that were subpar up to now because very poor in ANT/Reanimator MUs.

[Aleksandr]

So, bye for now guys, I'm just leaving for my last tournament with four-of Mystical Tutors. Wish me luck!

[MMogg]

Just my assumption.

The BOMIV breakdown.



U decks are far too much efficient. I agree that Reanimator and ANT were not impressive because they were anticipated with a lot of U-decks. Removing those 2 non-U decks predators (less true for reanimator) just solves this problem. I did not expect this but I find it to be a smart move.

I'm still not getting this at all. So you're saying, kneecapping the 13th and 14th placed decks (by the above chart) will somehow make the 6 blue decks in the top 8 positions in that chart less dominant? I don't see how the above graph in any way substantiates what you said in your previous post. Zoo and Goblins in that chart, have better records on average than ANT or Reanimator, so in which way were they holding back non-blue decks?

MMogg, I wanna be your buddy.

The last time someone said that to me I woke up in a bathtub full of ice and my kidneys had been stolen.

So, bye for now guys, I'm just leaving for my last tournament with four-of Mystical Tutors. Wish me luck!

Good luck, man. Show 'em why Mystical Tutor should stay banned.

[Maveric78f]

Of course ANT is not dominant because BOM IV players are strong and they knew they had to expect it.

I say :
1/ Look at this chart.
2/ Notice how U decks are dominant (and overplayed). Everybody said that Legacy was not broken, so there was no need to fix it. I don't really agree to this.
3/ Wonder why U decks are so dominant.
4/ My answer : ANT (and to a lesser extent Reanimator) is an unwinnable MU for every non-U deck.
5/ Their solution : kill ANT to have a better spectrum of decks over magic's colours, even if ANT was not that strong because the metagame learn to adapt against it (by playing only U-FoW-decks).
6/ Now that ANT is killed, you may have a wider spectrum of decks.

This was my point. Feel free to disagree.

[Mayk0l]

I'm happy. ANT was such a dominant force here in the Netherlands. Extremely popular and extremely succesful. This slows it down a bit. I was on the verge of quitting Legacy because of ANT. This is an improvement to say the least.

[pippo84]

I totally agree with MMogg.
Legacy should be played with the best cards available. Not the broken ones of course, but the best.
At least I don't play extended. They totally f****d up that format with the new rules..

[jazzykat]

This is just wrong. Zoo is nothing but taking advantage of the strong presence of U in the current metagame. As I said, banning MT will reduce the U-based deck domination and thus Zoo will not be that well fitted to the metagame.

Zoo : just eat my Pernicious Deed and my Kitchen Finks, two cards that were subpar up to now because very poor in ANT/Reanimator MUs.

I think you misunderstood me.

With combo less powerful then I believe that makes lands more powerful. Lands trashes on zoo. If they ban Tabernacle then lands lost a powerful weapon vs. zoo. Then maybe zoo takes over maybe not. My point is that they are unbalancing what seems to be a very balanced meta, and they may have to continue to ban things now that they may have put them out of whack.

[4eak]

Storm's skill requirements will increase, pushing weaker pilots out of viability. The deck will still be very strong, but it will have a higher skill barrier to entry. A slightly lower presence of Storm decks will definitely influence the metagame though.

Reanimator took a much larger hit than Storm, imho. Lacking Mystical tutor in this deck makes it much less consistent and flexible. The deck will still be playable (better than many Established Decks), but not nearly as good as it was.




peace,
4eak

[Rune]

It's been said before but this is a VERY SCARY precedent. The DCI will for no reason every three months may randomly ruin a deck (or two) while everyone but possibly them thinks the meta is healthy and fun.

Maybe this is a part of WotC's strategy :0

Board meeting at the WotC headquaters (dramatic reenactment!!!1):


Person #1: "People have realized that T2 and Extended are shitty formats, and they are starting to migrate to Legacy. They are even willing to pay a lot of money to get the deck they want."

Person #2: "Crap, we can't make any money off that format!! Quick, go ban a random good blue card. Our market research shows people don't like those anyways. That'll teach everyone not to invest in Legacy unless they want their newly purchased deck to get completely screwed by our random bans, muahah!"

Person #1: "lol, nice. Lemme just screw up Extended while I'm at it. Just for lulz and moneyz."

[Little Red Riding Hood]

Of course ANT is not dominant because BOM IV players are strong and they knew they had to expect it.

I say :
1/ Look at this chart.
2/ Notice how U decks are dominant (and overplayed). Everybody said that Legacy was not broken, so there was no need to fix it. I don't really agree to this.
3/ Wonder why U decks are so dominant.
4/ My answer : ANT (and to a lesser extent Reanimator) is an unwinnable MU for every non-U deck.
5/ Their solution : kill ANT to have a better spectrum of decks over magic's colours, even if ANT was not that strong because the metagame learn to adapt against it (by playing only U-FoW-decks).
6/ Now that ANT is killed, you may have a wider spectrum of decks.

This was my point. Feel free to disagree.

Apparently the best decision would've been to ban Brainstorm to weaken U-Decks (at least most of them) and ANT/Reanimator.

[MMogg]

Of course ANT is not dominant because BOM IV players are strong and they knew they had to expect it.

I say :
1/ Look at this chart.
2/ Notice how U decks are dominant (and overplayed). Everybody said that Legacy was not broken, so there was no need to fix it. I don't really agree to this.
3/ Wonder why U decks are so dominant.
4/ My answer : ANT (and to a lesser extent Reanimator) is an unwinnable MU for every non-U deck.
5/ Their solution : kill ANT to have a better spectrum of decks over magic's colours, even if ANT was not that strong because the metagame learn to adapt against it (by playing only U-FoW-decks).
6/ Now that ANT is killed, you may have a wider spectrum of decks.

This was my point. Feel free to disagree.

Yeah, I respectfully disagree, although we will see over time. Apart from the Netherlands, I think most places seem to have a constantly evolving metagame. Some top 8s have ANT and some have none. The fact that BoM perhaps anticipated ANT/Reanimator/other combo and brought on the blue to hate it out is neither a unique phenomenon nor does it point to an unhealthy format. The SCGs often have such kind of shifts with decks being brought in anticipation of what will be there. Look at the last one that had no Reanimator anywhere just after everyone seemed to be polishing the crown of Legacy to adorn on Reanimator's head (i.e. saying Reanimator is the best deck). I don't see how randomly weakening a deck will make the environment more diverse. Again . . . time will tell.

[TW_REB]

It's interesting that when someone complains about limiting factors in the context of a new deck the "QQ n00b", "lol u punt against combo, u r tier 500 rofl" quickly gets rather savage, but when an established deck and it's pilots are prensented with a limiting factor, taking a "the sky is falling"-stance is considered fairly legit.
It seems rather obvious that WotC wanted to limit combo decks with recent sets and feel they have curbstomped the GY hard enough with the printing of Relic and Ravenous Trap (see also Entomb unbanned). Mindbreak Trap and Ethersworn Canonist have apparently not sated their desire to hate on storm, thus they swing the hammer. That line of reasoning makes sense, at least if you agree that combo should be kneecapped to a certain degree.
Normally I think Wizards make quite horrid decisions, but this actually makes sense beyond the "MOAR MONEY FOR US LOL" argument that seems to be the usual fare. Also nice to see them finally put that sickly dog, Extended, down. The format hasn't been good in years and it was reduced to a perpetual 'also ran'. Let a new format have it's shot at glory.