without Mangara/karakas, you just have to find an other name to your deck
I disagree. As long as he uses Mangara in some capacity (even if it is only by using cards such as Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker) it is still able to be considered a Death and Taxes build, it is just a budgeted version of the deck. Heck I have seen Green and White versions of the Deck, would you consider those to not be Death and Taxes decks just because they aren't mono-white anymore?Originally Posted by tomjulioo
Jitte does all of that when your attacker is getting chumped, and triggers off defense, too. It also can be cast and activated on mystic for 4 net, which is not irrelevant.
6 net (because you also have to cast (or at least vial in) the Stoneforge Mystic). But technically so can each of the Swords, and doing that with the swords.... nets you card advantage because the swords would normally cost 3 mana instead of 2 mana.
I am in agreement that the Sword of Body and Mind... if it is what we all assume it is (another piece of equipment in the image of Sword of Light and Shadow / Sword of Fire and Ice)... would be a very good addition, and probably the optimal piece of equipment to improve this decks Zoo match up. At least that is my take. This of course assumes that the colors attributed to the card would include Green in some capacity.
Of course if my speculation is correct and this card is but one of a series of new cards in the image of the original swords (i.e. they are completing a full cycle of 5 (or rather one for each enemy pair)) then deciding what ones to include in the deck may end up becoming much more of a meta decision than anything else in this deck.
I do look forward to finding out what this card turns out to be either way as it looks promising regardless of what it actually is.
I have actually seen a U/W version (But I am not sure that its essentially D&T, but I am 100% sure that it is not U/W Tempo)
That version ran Riptide Laboratory instead of Karakas and Crystal Shard but those are just 1-ofs. It still ran Flickerwisps and Vials but it also ran CIP Faeries.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
sounds very interesting. I don't suppose you have the list sitting around anywhere as I would be intensely interested in comparing notes to it.
No, that was exactly my point. Getting a sword active (ie, connecting for value) on a mystic the turn after you play it costs 5 mana, since you can't tap it and attack with it on the same turn. And you meant tempo, not card advantage, but I'll assume that's just a slip :).
yeah sorry, I always get tempo and card advantage mixed up... so not that big a deal.
Anyways. In my experience it is not at all unrealistic to think that one will have a creature out along side of the stoneforge mystic whom you can equip the sword or jitte to. Ideally it will even be something substantially larger than the mystic to begin with. Once that is accomplished you can use the mystic to put the card into play and just attach it to the other creature and swing in with the newly equiped card, netting both tempo advantage and actual raw card advantage from the sword or jitte's effects.
I personally find that using the mystic to cheat equipment into play is way more desirable in a great deal more match ups than actually equiping the various equipment in the deck directly TOO the stoneforge mystic unless you have absolutely no other alternative in doing so.
Most of the time if you are trying to connect with a turn 2 mystic-ed piece of as soon as possible, as in the goblins matchup, it is going to have to be on the mystic themselves, barring vial shenanigans. Other creatures are definitely better choices later on, but my experience is that the value of mystic-ed equipment drops rapidly from borderline unfair in the first few turns to merely a good play later on.
In any case, the mana discussion was a very minor sideline of the more important point - swords get chumped (or stopped entirely by goyf and crew); jitte does not.
I'm very curious about what do people think of the new "Sword of Vengeance"? The equip cost of 3 is meh, but +2/+0, first strike, trample, vigilance and haste seems good. It should be really strong vs merfolk, goblins and whatnot where vigilance+first strike turns even flickerwisp into something very dangerous.
I've been playing this deck a lot recently. Combo has creeping up in my meta because everyone is playing Zoo. For example, today there were 9:22 players running Zoo. I am running Silence in the board with good results. I also run 3xEthersworn Canonist in my maindeck with a fourth in the sideboard.
Crazy combo decks in my meta include Aeon Bridge, Solidarity, and Enchantress. Even with Blecher on the rise, I will not run Mindbreak Trap in my board. Silence is much better except versus Belcher. I've considered running needles in my board to combat Belcher. How many needles should I run? I need enough to fend off deeds and Mosswort Bridges.
Zoo is also a pain. I've been using siding in Kitchen Finks and taking out my Mangaras in this matchup. Finks are just so great with Flickerwisp. I've considered Ghostly Prison and Elspeth for this matchup but neither of them are very appealing. What stops Zoo dead in it's tracks in mono white?
I like the concept behind this new sword. The equip cost is what keeps me from wanting to try it in this deck. Most of the abilities are cute, like the first strike, trample, and haste. The vigilance is good but +2/+0 doesn't seem enough for me. I'd rather run Jitte in this slot unless I am slapping the Sword of Vengeance with a second sword on the same critter.
I'll break it down.
Sword of Vengeance:
+2/+0 - This is alright but could be better
first strike - good
trample - our critters are never that large but evasive instead
vigilance - useful
haste - not great since we run vials
Overall, the equip 3 hurts a lot. I'm going to hope the new mythic sword is more playable than this one.
i already posted that Perimeter Captain is very good against Zoo! it stops ALL their Firstdrops and it chumpblocks a goyf for 2 Life! Without Goyf you stall them. A second one is imba, because u get 4 life for blocking!
I also play Kitchen Finks in Mainboard. They kill most of Zoos Beaters, give Live and are synergetic with Flickerwisp(removes the -1/-1 Counter).
in the goblin match up I would rather play a turn 1 Burrenton Forge-Tender and then MAYBE think of following it up with some equipment if I have the right cards to do so. I don't usually think of landing stoneforge mystic on turn 2 and the equipment on turn 3 followed by equiping the equipment on turn 4 anyways. Mainly because I like to be able to equip the equipment on the same turn that I play the equipment because it makes it harder for my opponent to be able to respond to it if I do that. At least that is my philosophy. In fact I have found that playing Mystic too early tends to get it killed way to fast and gets the equipment stranded in your hand. Especially if you didn't have protection for the mystic in play in some capacity.
As far as the Sword of Vengeance goes, I don't really like it that much. It seems incredibly slow in this deck. Assuming you don't get it off of a stoneforge mystic the card costs a grand whopping total of 6 mana to play and equip to something. There is a reason we don't play loxodon warhammer in this deck and I think the mana investment is the main one.
I also agree with the adding Kitchen Finks to the main deck. I am currently testing a 2:2 split between Burrenton Forge Tender and Kitchen Finks. I like the idea of keeping the Forge-Tender because the card helps in several match ups aside from just Zoo, namely it helps against Dredge, and N.O.P. Countertop among a few others and definitely is a one hit wonder against Goblins being able to chump block virtually the entire deck dying only to their Warren Weirding (and that can't even stop it if you get another creature out before they cast the card). So it is a diverse answer to a diverse set of decks. Kitchen Finks also helps against a large swath of the meta, which is nice. I am really thinking that including the finks main deck is the right call from now on.
Unfortunately, I dont.
I encountered this list when I was playing on MWS. The dude (I cant remember his name) played it and to my surprised worked almost the same as D&T (All that Flickerwisp and Mangara tricks). I eventually asked him/her why no Karakas (because I haven't seen it in the 3 games that we played), he/she mentioned that that deck mirrored his real deck and he/she didnt have the budget to buy 3-4 Karakas.
I wish I had asked for the list.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Vacrix postet something that seems quite similar to what you're talking about in N&D, wait. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Shard-Control
I actually like the idea of using Mangara, Spellstutter Sprite and friends with Crystal Shard, but I don't think that should still be labeled Death And Taxes.
Gah. You have a less than 20% chance of being able to open with forge-tender, even main decking him x2 as you relatively unusually do - and most goblins builds these days are capable of removing a t1 forge tender, and run more ways to do so than you run tenders.
So yeah, I'm sticking with my assessment that most of the time, a fast stone-forger will require self-equipping :).
The new sword is terrible against aggro with removal in every way, and invitation to tempo loss and the match slip. It could be quite hilarious against merfolk, but hardly compares to Sofi.
@the discussion about which creature to attach equipment to: You have to figure out what removal the opponent has. Against something like Zoo, that is THE issue in most cases. I commonly equip to the Mystic because once the equipment is in play, the Mystic is pretty much a Squire. If my opponent has been holding a removal spell for my creature as I try to equip, I want it going at the Mystic - and not an Avenger or Flickerwisp or Grunt or any other legitimate threat. Against decks with less removal (and more of other things to be concerned with), the decision is a bit cloudier.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
so the white M11 leyline has been confirmed by one of the more reliable rumor mill veterans as being Ivory Mask with the traditional leyline "casting" conditions. Will this be something we can use in our decks? Or is it just junk for Death and Taxes? Is it possible this could replace some of our more traditional combo hate?
An Ivory Mask that comes down on turn 0 is definitely worth serious consideration. The question in my mind is what combo is going to look like. It will probably be a good foil against Belcher and Ad Nauseam decks while it does little to nothing against any other combo deck such as Enchantress or probably Aluren.
Also, you have to have 4 in the SB or it is not worth it. So it is good against, uhh
Some combo
Burn
Zoo, maybe?
Lands? (stops Intuition)
MBC
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Not a big fan against zoo, they can just burn your guys instead.
Sort of cute against Eve's discard, though. It also takes the sting out of gatekeepers.
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