[Deck] Zoo

[lordofthepit]

Obviously, there's been a lot of debate about the relative advantages of "Fast Zoo" (which leans more towards the Sligh end of the spectrum usually with some combination of Steppe Lynx, Fireblast, and Price of Progress) over conventional Zoo (which runs the some quantity of Kird Apes, Loam Lions, Figure of Destiny, Sylvan Library, Lightning Helix, and possibly a equipment package for Stoneforge Mystic).

Would you say it's fair to say that Fast Zoo is better against the likes of Lands.dec, Countertop, and combo, while conventional Zoo is better against Merfolk, Goblins, Dredge, Bant Aggro strategies, and the mirror?

[Brizentine Empire]

Obviously, there's been a lot of debate about the relative advantages of "Fast Zoo" (which leans more towards the Sligh end of the spectrum usually with some combination of Steppe Lynx, Fireblast, and Price of Progress) over conventional Zoo (which runs the some quantity of Kird Apes, Loam Lions, Figure of Destiny, Sylvan Library, Lightning Helix, and possibly a equipment package for Stoneforge Mystic).

Would you say it's fair to say that Fast Zoo is better against the likes of Lands.dec, Countertop, and combo, while conventional Zoo is better against Merfolk, Goblins, Dredge, Bant Aggro strategies, and the mirror?

I don't think this is an entirely fair question as I don't think there are two distinct Zoo builds, but in fact many different variations playing different numbers of the cards you mentioned above. For example, I play both Steppe Lynx and Fireblast along with Sylvan Library and Lightning Helix, so what would you consider to my deck to be? I just prefer the advantages of some cards over others; I think that, in many cases, the pressure that Steppe Lynx puts on aggro decks can be a gamebreaker, and performs fantastically against both Merfolk and Golbins. I also like Library as it adds consistency to an otherwise explosive deck, giving me a better middle/late game after my Lynxes and Nacatls have done damage.

What I will agree with, though, is that any SFM/equipment packages do help in the mirror, which is something that makes me a bit uneasy at times.

[Brizentine Empire]

I think the best builds of Lands is the blue version with Tolarian West and Intuition. They can just go get Loam, Academy Ruins, and Zuran Orb, and you're pretty much fucked. Grip is worthless because of the recursion they have. For Zoo yeah it's pretty fucking insane for them even preboard.

Grip isn't useless; a Grip on their Orb at their endstep with a PoP in hand is an amazing play, as it prevents them from gaining life before the Price.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Grip isn't useless; a Grip on their Orb at their endstep with a PoP in hand is an amazing play, as it prevents them from gaining life before the Price.

I'd bet you what little money I have that you will more than likely never encounter this situation. Bring in something better than Grip, that is my whole point.

[jandax]

Wheel of Sun and Moon?

[Curby]

Steve Menendian wrote "Loam Lion is just better than Kird Ape, but the results haven’t borne that out – yet." I'm wondering why the Lion is "just better."

Does blue use sufficient blue blasts that they start aiming them at Kird Apes of all things? If the cards were both red and one simply said "cannot be the target of blue elemental blast and hydroblast" then I'd understand. However, the fact that the Lion is white also has downsides.

A deck that's primarily red can tailor its manabase to support that, especially if it also packs Fireblast. Red creatures can piggyback off that foundation and be more easily cast, whereas you're slightly more likely to hold a Lion without the white source to cast it. The chances are small, but so are the chances of your 2/3 getting color-hosed when it's often branded as the worst card in the deck anyway.

So I'm probably missing something, unless Steve thinks that the blue blasts or other red-hate are a huge deal. Any ideas?

[lordofthepit]

Steve Menendian wrote "Loam Lion is just better than Kird Ape, but the results haven’t borne that out – yet." I'm wondering why the Lion is "just better."

Does blue use sufficient blue blasts that they start aiming them at Kird Apes of all things? If the cards were both red and one simply said "cannot be the target of blue elemental blast and hydroblast" then I'd understand. However, the fact that the Lion is white also has downsides.

A deck that's primarily red can tailor its manabase to support that, especially if it also packs Fireblast. Red creatures can piggyback off that foundation and be more easily cast, whereas you're slightly more likely to hold a Lion without the white source to cast it. The chances are small, but so are the chances of your 2/3 getting color-hosed when it's often branded as the worst card in the deck anyway.

So I'm probably missing something, unless Steve thinks that the blue blasts or other red-hate are a huge deal. Any ideas?

I think it's protection from red more so than blue blasts. No one would ever blue blast an Ape unless desparate, but you'll see your Burreton Forge Tenders and Rule of Laws from time to time.

[jandax]

@kirbysdl

I think that his evaluation of those two cards are a distillation of the format in whole, where the only real difference is that Apes get destroyed with more cards than Lions (BE/Hydroblast) That's the only logic I can put to it. He's a super analytical player, so maybe it's a legitimate claim to him.

[Curby]

So I'm probably missing something

Burreton Forge Tenders and Rule of Laws

I thought that was the more likely explanation, so I put it first. None of these are big deals, but in total I can see why you'd prefer something else. =)

Now my question is why people don't use Lion more. There aren't THAT many Fireblasts in typical Zoo lists.

[Brizentine Empire]

I'd bet you what little money I have that you will more than likely never encounter this situation. Bring in something better than Grip, that is my whole point.

I've actually done this twice and won both games because of this play. I won't dispute the fact that Krosan Grip isn't a great card in the matchup, but it's still playable.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I've actually done this twice and won both games because of this play. I won't dispute the fact that Krosan Grip isn't a great card in the matchup, but it's still playable.

You also got lucky to get to 3 land as well. I'm surprised to be honest. Port and Waste fucks up everything.

[jandax]

Is it possible, or even correct, to play to a draw instead of to win against Lands? You know, milking a shuffle, tanking for an extra 5 seconds, being all around an unsociably slow player but not enough for a penalty... Unwinnable matchups are out there, but can they be played out for the draw?

[keys]

Now my question is why people don't use Lion more. There aren't THAT many Fireblasts in typical Zoo lists.

My take is that turn 1 Taiga is preferable to turn 1 Savannah.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

My take is that turn 1 Taiga is preferable to turn 1 Savannah.

I've never fetched anything other than Taiga turn one.

+1

[Brizentine Empire]

I've never fetched anything other than Taiga turn one.

+1

I fetch out a turn 1 Plateau all the time in order to play Steppe Lynx. I don't really see why it would have to be turn 1 Taiga or Savannah... You can always get the green mana on turn 2. I also play Fireblast though, so it plays into that as well.

[Hanni]

There's lots of love for the Zoo thread, but the Sligh thread has been completely dead for so long. Kinda makes me sad, especially since I worked so hard on evolving Goyf Sligh into the monstrous Cat Sligh. Anyway, I just figured I'd post my super aggressive Zoo list that I always enjoy bashing people with on MWS:

R/w/g Naya (Cat) Sligh/Zoo

Lands (18)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Mountain

Creatures (12)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl

Spells (30)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Burst Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

Sideboard (15)
1 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Path to Exile
4 Krosan Grip
4 Relic of Progenitus

[jandax]

Ever play that list live? I'm just wondering if 18 land is enough

[Hanni]

The curve is so rediculously low that it works. 27 1cc spells if you count the Rift Bolts, only 11 2cc spells, and the 4 Fireblasts.

You really don't ever want to see more than 3 lands, and can often function off of 1 if you get stuck. The beauty of such a low curve and land count, aside from the obvious increase in speed, is that you often have more gas and less land floods.

The deck is a glass cannon, though. Losing cards like Qasali Pridemage can hurt sometimes, but the deck goldfishes at least a full turn faster than a typical Zoo list. There's alot of advantages to having a significantly faster clock.

[jandax]

There's a few glass cannon decks out there, and I happen to like glass cannons. Makes life fun, for you not them really.

Pretty interesting list.

[Neuad]

There's lots of love for the Zoo thread, but the Sligh thread has been completely dead for so long. Kinda makes me sad, especially since I worked so hard on evolving Goyf Sligh into the monstrous Cat Sligh. Anyway, I just figured I'd post my super aggressive Zoo list that I always enjoy bashing people with on MWS:

R/w/g Naya (Cat) Sligh/Zoo

Lands (18)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Mountain

Creatures (12)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl

Spells (30)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Burst Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

Sideboard (15)
1 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Path to Exile
4 Krosan Grip
4 Relic of Progenitus

I actually really like the looks of this build, thanks for sharing <3