[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[Digital Devil]

So, does anyone disagrees that this is, at least near, the optimal Main Deck for led-less bloodghast-less version?

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

My questions are:
1- I agree that Main Deck Dread Return targets are overkill, but, since you don't need the 4th Thug and Tribe (not to mention other cards), wouldn't it be interesting to "extend" you sideboard?
2- Wich Sideboard are you plaing after the banning of Mystical Tutor?

My opinion is (considering that the answer for the 1st question is "Yes", and running Iona and Terastodon MD - please discuss about this as well):
4 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor Chosen
1 Furystoke Giant
1 Realm Razer

I'm skeptical about Furystoke and Razer, although I see why people thought of them. What if I remove them and maybe extra Ray(?) to run Unmask?

I run the same exact list, except for -1x Study, -1x Thug, +1x Iona, +1x Dread Return. I find the maindeck to be pretty strong, but I'm seriously in doubt about my sideboard choices. I currently own those cards:

4x Nature's Claim
4x Ancient Grudge
3x Ray of Revelation
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Darkblast
1x Terastodon
1x Angel of Despair
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Caldera Hellion
1x Realm Razer

1) What kind of sideboard would you play with my same card pool?
2) I learned how to play around every kind of hate except for Knight of the Reliquiary ===> Bojuka Bog. I'm not considering Chain of Vapor as a solution, since it sucks against "normal" hate (we don't have the explosiveness of LED Ichorid), and must hit Knight the same exact turn it enters the battlefield, since then they still have the chance to activate it in response. Losing to a 3 mana creature (the ability is playable after the fourth turn, which makes it even worse to lose because of it) makes me feel like I'm playing the deck wrong, so I hope for some enlightenment gently given to me by far more expert players.

[indefinite.soul]

alderon666: I think Leyline is worth testing, not MD though.

Djenin: We have space for artifcat hate on SB, so why not change them for Leyline? Also, it respondes Bokuja and Trap, right?

Digital Devil: I can't answer the SB question as I just did the same one. But on Knight, I'd say Firestorm, Angel of Despair and, who knows, Leyline of Antecipation. xD

[alderon666]

alderon666: I think Leyline is worth testing, not MD though.

Djenin: We have space for artifcat hate on SB, so why not change them for Leyline? Also, it respondes Bokuja and Trap, right?

Digital Devil: I can't answer the SB question as I just did the same one. But on Knight, I'd say Firestorm, Angel of Despair and, who knows, Leyline of Antecipation. xD

Yeah, turning your draw spells into ways to fight hate looks really good. Breakthrough goes from being a liability to being godlike with Leyline in play.

All kinds of crazy situation can come up like: your slowdredge into a bunch of shit and then the opponent decides do crack his Tormod's Crypt. In response you Cabal Therapy him once or twice to clear counterspells and them Breakthrough in response. Flip your hole deck upside down, make a lot of tokens and a huge troll and then remove your grave.

PS: Funny thought that came to me while writing this. Imagine your opponent's face when you do all this stuff in response and then Dread Return a [card]Voidmage Husher[/card] countering his hate card. That would be so funny.

[alderon666]

alderon666: I think Leyline is worth testing, not MD though.

Djenin: We have space for artifcat hate on SB, so why not change them for Leyline? Also, it respondes Bokuja and Trap, right?

Digital Devil: I can't answer the SB question as I just did the same one. But on Knight, I'd say Firestorm, Angel of Despair and, who knows, Leyline of Antecipation. xD

Yeah, turning your draw spells into ways to fight hate looks really good. Breakthrough goes from being a liability to being godlike with Leyline in play.

All kinds of crazy situation can come up like: your slowdredge into a bunch of shit and then the opponent decides do crack his Tormod's Crypt. In response you Cabal Therapy him once or twice to clear counterspells and them Breakthrough in response. Flip your hole deck upside down, make a lot of tokens and a huge troll and then remove your grave.

PS: Funny thought that came to me while writing this. Imagine your opponent's face when you do all this stuff in response and then Dread Return a Voidmage Husher countering his hate card. That would be so funny.

[Bryant Cook]

What do people think of the white Leyline to stop people from removing our yard. Is it playable?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

What do people think of the white Leyline to stop people from removing our yard. Is it playable?

Doesn't save us from Relic.

[(nameless one)]

What do people think of the white Leyline to stop people from removing our yard. Is it playable?

In some ways, it might be but Faerie Macabre and Relic of Progenitus' 'ultimate' still gets around it.

PS: Funny thought that came to me while writing this. Imagine your opponent's face when you do all this stuff in response and then Dread Return a Voidmage Husher countering his hate card. That would be so funny.

I can imagine hundreds of faces but nothing would beat the MWS chatbox:

<opponent> hahahahha
<opponent> fukin
<opponent> NOOOOOOOOB
<opponent> learn rules
<opponent> its a sorcery
<dredge-dude> read leyline?
<opponent> are you kidding me ???
<opponent> idiot
<System> Player Lost
<System> Session Lost
<System> Disconnected

now, thats priceless!

[Anusien]

What do people think of the white Leyline to stop people from removing our yard. Is it playable?

I think it's very promising, but it's really really awkward if you don't draw it in your opening hand. I've ordered a set, but haven't gotten around to messing with it.

[kicks_422]

I think it's very promising, but it's really really awkward if you don't draw it in your opening hand. I've ordered a set, but haven't gotten around to messing with it.

But wouldn't boarding in 4 White Leylines and 3-4 Ancient Grudges (I'm assuming) dilut the deck too much? I'm really comfortable with just boarding in 4 cards at a time. But 8?

[Digital Devil]

Right, I'm having trouble siding in more than 4 cards, too, except when I switch Thugs for Darkblasts. We reached what seems to be the ideal maindeck configuration, more or less. About sideboarding, most people say it depends on playstyle and the meta. I agree with the metagaming argument, but it works only in small tournaments (8-40 attendants): at larger events (150-200 people enrolled) it becomes more difficult to keep track of what decks you may encounter, but even at weekly local events, many players tend to play random games with a "bait deck" (before the beginning of the tourney), only to switch to their regular deck thereafter. So, generally speaking, seeing that no one better than ourselves knows our metagame, it looks pretty simple to choose our 15 SB cards. But what kind of sideboard would you play in a random meta?

P.S. - as for the new Leylines question, I find them both to be inferior to Leyline of the Void, and although I used to play it in the past, I personally dislike the Leyline cycle.

[indefinite.soul]

As I'm playing 2 DR and 2 DR targets MD, I take all 4 out for 4 Nature's Claim and them 4 1 of for 4 oxidize as the main hates are artifacts. Also have 2 wispmares for leyline, so it would be only 2 1 of.

The problem is that I'm always changing the 1 of. Thug, Breakthrough, Careful.

What would it be the right call?

[Digital Devil]

As I'm playing 2 DR and 2 DR targets MD, I take all 4 out for 4 Nature's Claim and them 4 1 of for 4 oxidize as the main hates are artifacts. Also have 2 wispmares for leyline, so it would be only 2 1 of.

The problem is that I'm always changing the 1 of. Thug, Breakthrough, Careful.

What would it be the right call?

No love for Ancient Grudge? That card is ridiculously powerful, and does not require you to mull into it. Boarding in 3-4 Grudge might give you the same chance (if not higher) of getting your anti-hate as well as keeping the deck more linear.
-----------------------------
I'm impressed by Caldera Hellion. Everytime it enters the battlefield, I win. I side it in against Goblins, since they can race Iona, and they have Vial. Ancestor's Chosen doesn't do enough to stop their race, since g2 we hipotetically get our graveyard blown up more than once. Caldera Hellion wipes their board, leaving a 3/3+X/X body behind. It can also be used aggressively to clear our way from blockers. I find it to be a useful card against tribal strategies (Elves, Goblins, Merfolks - they still have to land THREE lords in order to survive DR ===> Hellion), against Survival, random aggro junk and the mirror.

[indefinite.soul]

No love for Ancient Grudge? That card is ridiculously powerful, and does not require you to mull into it. Boarding in 3-4 Grudge might give you the same chance (if not higher) of getting your anti-hate as well as keeping the deck more linear.

Ok. Let me open the game. I'm testing Rust.

But the question lasts. What we should board off?

Also. Chain of Vapor worries me because of Planar Void. Shouldn't we run something like Erase instead?

[Nidd]

You can board out Thugs, Breakthroughs, 1 discard outlet... I guess that's it.

Btw, when you have to expect Grunts and jailers G2/G3 from a single deck in a tournement of 8-10 people, would you rather play Chain or Claim?

[indefinite.soul]

You can board out Thugs, Breakthroughs, 1 discard outlet... I guess that's it.

Btw, when you have to expect Grunts and jailers G2/G3 from a single deck in a tournement of 8-10 people, would you rather play Chain or Claim?

Thanks.

What's the difference? You should be running Firestorms anyway.

[kicks_422]

You can board out Thugs, Breakthroughs, 1 discard outlet... I guess that's it.

Btw, when you have to expect Grunts and jailers G2/G3 from a single deck in a tournement of 8-10 people, would you rather play Chain or Claim?

I still don't understand why people keep on boarding out Breakthroughs. That card has won me so many post-board games, since you only usually get a small window of opportunity between pieces of grave hate coming in from your opponent. Having a permanent discard outlet is a great start for the deck post-board, and Breakthrough allows you to capitalize on that moreso than any other card in the deck.

[indefinite.soul]

I still don't understand why people keep on boarding out Breakthroughs. That card has won me so many post-board games, since you only usually get a small window of opportunity between pieces of grave hate coming in from your opponent. Having a permanent discard outlet is a great start for the deck post-board, and Breakthrough allows you to capitalize on that moreso than any other card in the deck.

Ok. So, what do you board out?

[kicks_422]

4 Careful Study for 4 Ancient Grudge/4 Chain of Vapor. Also, 2 DR targets for additional 2 SB cards, if more need to come in.

[Nidd]

4 Careful Study for 4 Ancient Grudge/4 Chain of Vapor. Also, 2 DR targets for additional 2 SB cards, if more need to come in.

Is boarding in 4 cards really enough? I play the DR-target-less list posted above, would you board out 2 Thugs instead?

[Ciberon]

What are your thoughts on Caldera Hellion versus Terastodon mb?