First off, I explicitly wrote that this isn't a "THE GATE" list, and that its goal is slightly different from The Gate. The decks both win with creatures, and a lot of them are the same, but beyond that, The Gate has to ensure that it has ways of saccing its big beater, while I don't have to worry about that.Originally Posted by Hollywood
Second, that's left me with a little flexibility, which I explicitly wrote I was testing against. I'm not saying UWD and Howl are the be-all, end-all cards for those slots, but they let the deck win faster, which is what I thought the main The Gate deck was missing. Same with Bad Moon -- with Moon & Bitterblossom, the clock ticks very loudly across the table.
Third, I read this entire thread yesterday before I posted in it. I know why you say The Gate doesn't want Rituals; I know what the gameplan is: steady answers for the opponent's early game, then, and only then, death. My list is much more of a traditional MBA list. The Rituals are a design choice that works. Think of it as a "Daze/No Daze" situation. Additionally, Sensei's Divining Top, to echo posters before me, only gets cast when I have free mana and a dominating board position.
Fourth, I see your maindeck Faerie Macabres, but once they hit the board, they're hardly a must-answer. Contrast Hyppy, who complements Nighthawk and draws removal for them, too.
Lastly, I would've preferred to post in the MBA thread, but I couldn't find it, and my list is much more Midrange that happens to commit to the Aggro plan.
Half-man, Half-beast of the Jujinkai, I've read your posts in this thread with great interest, as you have said over and over the things in this post: not broken enough, needs a splash. You go post in the Eva or Deadguy or Rock threads, then.
However, that's not to say you don't have a certain point in that "mono black is lacking something broken." Black has more than just a few cards that are nearly-broken. Dark Ritual is, and always has been, a broken-enabler. If you're searching for something broken in mono-, look no further than first turn Duress into Hymn, or just Hymn, or Bob, or Hyppy, or Nighthawk (who I'm lobbying to be called "Mike Hawk" btw), etc. The point in a deck like this is to have redundancy, so when you drop ritual->Bob and get him StP'ed, you have a Hymn or a Bob for turn 2, and something else nasty for turn 3. By playing fairly against Zoo, for example, you quickly reduce each other to topdeck mode, and since his spells are cheaper, you're probably in trouble, especially with too much disruption in your list. Ritual is what allows the black deck to cast more expensive threats on a sort of parity with the cheap ones that define the format. Bob is what keeps ritual's card disadvantage in check.
Now, that might not be broken enough for you, but one of the things I agree with Hollywood on is that steady, incremental building of nearly-broken stuff is what makes a deck like this work; resilience and utility and inevitability.
I agree, imanujakku, that Gatekeeper isn't very exciting (if he had Flash, that'd be something different). And once I'd realized that, cutting Persecutor and not building a deck around him made a different beast: instead of killing everything with spells/Gatekeeper, I ignore their small threats, target what I can, and race -- Mike Hawk loves this.
ritual ->duress-> hymn -> is 3 cards for 3 cards . yeah i cant think of too many decks that would love to face that start but there is no true card advantage there. You just put yourself and your opponent into top deck mode a little faster and the power level of legacy top decks is high.
ritual -> hippy/hawk -> is card disadvantage if its countered with force of will/ daze you are even 2 for 2. if your opponent sends the hippy to the farm you just gave your opponent a 2 for 1.
ritual -> tombstalker can be nice but ive never really had a problem casting tombstalker without ritual especially since i upped the fetch/wasteland count.
i love dark ritual but the lack of great BBB cards means its just a better play in a deck that uses it to flat out win the game rather than start a little better than their opponent.
incrementally building to a win is fine but how does mono black do that in way that makes it better than running a splash ? i guess what im looking for is a reason that does not include budget to not splash a color. to me that reason should be something super powerful for BBB or BBBB mana cast that other decks cannot do and right now i dont see it.
This is a deck that is explicitly different than other mono-black decks for the reasons already mentioned. You cannot even begin to justify running: Howl From Beyond, Bad Moon, three Dark Confidant, and two Hypnotic Specter at all. That not only completely waters the deck down, it almost instantly turns the deck into a big, hot, casual mess.
You are comparing Faerie Macabre with a card that is 100% functionally different in Hypnotic Specter. Faerie Macabre isn't "meant" to hit the board and make someone discard a card at random (if it sticks, for that matter). Faerie Macabre serves as an uncounterable piece of graveyard removal at instant-speed, so I have no clue why you are comparing these two creatures when they are obviously completely different in what they are meant to accomplish, let alone the entire deck.
Again, someone who wants to play Dark Ritual and trade a methodical start to for a fast one. How many times does one have to mention this before it gets old? Dark Ritual does not - nor will it ever - find itself in any list that purports itself to play under the namesake of this deck. Dark Ritual is tempo. Do people not understand what the meaning of tempo (and lack there of) is? This deck does not need a "Bad Moon" or "Howl From Beyond" to win a game. Those cards are referred to as "clutter"; they completely bog down slots that could be so much more useful. I've seen people morph this deck into something it was not meant to be. People are trying to glamorize card slots by making suboptimal choices with cute tricks that only serve very narrow purposes in the most situational of circumstances.
The point is, you have decided to take cards that are proven more efficient and precise at what they are meant to do and whittled away critical slots in order to supplement poor and erratic card choices that have absolutely no place in any competitive Legacy deck.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 07-19-2010 at 12:05 PM.
My worst MU is against CounterTop when they manage to play combo. Does anyone use some sb-options in such MUs? And what we could do against?
Did I not address that?
I've found the pressure generated from that tempo to be helpful in ending games before the opponent can stabilize.
"Need"? You're right that those cards aren't "needed" in those slots, but as far as being "useful," McFaerie maindeck seems to be throwing stones from inside your house. The list I posted has just as many creatures as the last one of yours I found. You know from playing the deck how many creatures you have available during the course of the game. I wanted to make them better, and bad moon is like a 2-cost equipment that I don't have to equip. Howl would probably be better as some kind of maindeck hate, but I haven't found the perfect hate card that helps every matchup, so I'm testing cards that speed up the win. Just a few of them aren't clogging up hands in my experience.
You invented mono-black midrange? Congratulations. Seriously, though, I didn't post a The Gate list.
Having a creature or two on the board and swinging with it is narrow and situational. Gotcha.
No, you haven't, for the reality of the matter is you plainly disregard that fact in the card selections in your list.
I've found that that happens to be the very reason why mono-black decks can never escape the abyss of labeled inconsistency. Even in your build, the cards you selected do not come close to punishing an opponent even close to optimally.I've found the pressure generated from that tempo to be helpful in ending games before the opponent can stabilize.
Bad Moon is just plain awful. It doesn't nearly give you the advantages an Umezawa's Jitte does; not even close. The fact you actually tried to make Bad Moon sound effective is just plain ludicrous. The card is terrible and provides no real immediate threat what so ever. I'd rather attack for two from a Gatekeeper and save a slot than use a turn to drop an effectively dead enchantment and let my opponent build his resources while I have to spend yet another turn waiting to cast a creature, hoping it lives, then yet another turn in hopes it can attack."Need"? You're right that those cards aren't "needed" in those slots, but as far as being "useful," McFaerie maindeck seems to be throwing stones from inside your house. The list I posted has just as many creatures as the last one of yours I found. You know from playing the deck how many creatures you have available during the course of the game. I wanted to make them better, and bad moon is like a 2-cost equipment that I don't have to equip. Howl would probably be better as some kind of maindeck hate, but I haven't found the perfect hate card that helps every matchup, so I'm testing cards that speed up the win. Just a few of them aren't clogging up hands in my experience.
And with your additional logic, I'd be correct in assuming that a deck that plays twenty Relentless Rats is just as effective in a deck that runs twenty of anything else that attacks? Just because you run the same number of creatures I do doesn't make yours immediately more effective. You should always run four Dark Confidant and always run four Hypnotic Specter. Those cards define card advantage (albeit one invariably slower), yet you only want to run them as a total of five cards. Do you not own a set or something?
Just because a deck runs a single color doesn't automatically make it the same as other decks - of the same color - that see play. I never claimed to have invented anything; you are a bit delusional in that area. I sat down at a Jupiter Games tournament with the rest of my team and took cheap, effective removal spells and paired them with the newest, most effective black creatures the format had to offer. Simple. I built a deck that people liked as a cheap alternative to the more expensive end of the format and as it turns out, this deck can hammer those decks pretty damn well. The objective of this deck wasn't to dump your hand in hopes of crippling an opponent the first turn, so I have no clue why you're even referring to what you built as mid-range when all you've done is change a few cards around with Fourth Edition dime-rares and a bunch of Dark Rituals, which completely nullifies the very term "mid-range" itself. Congratulations on that one.You invented mono-black midrange? Congratulations. Seriously, though, I didn't post a The Gate list.
You clearly took what I said out of context, and what you posted is false; I laid out what cards were situational and narrow and are ineffective (at best) against the current format (in this hybrid), and from what I gather Dark Ritual, Bad Moon, and Howl from Beyond are not creatures.Having a creature or two on the board and swinging with it is narrow and situational. Gotcha.
Go back and read where I said my list is different from The Gate...in every single post.
If you're admitting your list and type of deck is different, why are you posting that type of deck in this thread? Why don't you create a new thread or go here?
Last edited by Michael Keller; 07-19-2010 at 03:00 PM.
How is this deck doing results-wise? I'm interested in possibly integrating some elements into my Deadguy list, but only those which are working as expected. I'm seeing a lot of debate over card choices, but not a lot of lists/reports.
the most recent results with similar lists can be found on deck check.
http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?ty...&format=Legacy
I cant speak for Bad Moon or Howl from Beyond but this my list has been doing wonders for me.
////Lands//// 20
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacomb
8 Swamp
4 Wasteland
////Creatures//// 14
4 Tombstalker
4 Nighthawk
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Gatekeeper
////Enchantment//// 3
3 Bitterblossom
////Artifact//// 2
2 Umezawa's Jitte
////Spells//// 21
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff out
Which is a bastardized tempo version of this deck. Frankly, i looked at your creation Hollywood and was surprised by its lack of stapled black disrupts and substituted it with sac effects for Persecutors drawbacks. I feel that the that the +1/+1 and trample isn't worth losing cards with such power level. Why dilute your deck with sac effects to support a creature a little bigger when you can play Tombstalker and preserve tempo and ld and hand disrupting strategies? Both beaststicks have a four turn clock and evasion and between my fetch count and instants/sorceries powering out 2 Stalkers a game is quite easy and can easily come down earlier then turn four without rituals. The only true pure advantage Persecutor has over Tombstalker is it is less painful when flipped with BOB.
But so far Blossoms have been awesome pseudo fogs and jitte carrying mvps.
Even if i do get flamed for not seeing Persecutor worth sacrificing such powerful disrupt and tempo(i.e. Sinkhole, Hymn and Snuffout) thanks for the ideas! however im not pleased with shade any longer, is there anything that can fill his role?
Was Faerie Macabre MD answer to Reanimator? And does it deserve slot after banning Mystical Tutor and decreasing number of Reanimators?
faerie is in there for iona and some hope versus dredge in game one. i guess its a beater in a pinch. i like it more as sideboard since it slots nicely into the nighthawk/gatekeeper slots when they arent needed.
Also faerie can help against Survival decks. But I am still not sure it deserves to be in MD.
Things you might want to exile from graveyards:
- Reanimation targets (including Iona, Flamekin Zealot, ...)
- Ichorids, Bridges from Below, Dredge men
- Squee and any other recurring pest (Life from the Loam?)
- Engineered Explosives (at least with Academy Ruins threatening)
- your own Bitterblossoms if facing a Tarmogoyf
I THINK that's at least 50% of any given Legacy meta. Seems a solid choice, given that McFae is almost never a dead card.
So because this deck is only black, you immediately assume it must play "stapled disrupts" (as you put it) that the deck already plays (Duress, Therapy, and Hymn) but just an increase in count? I'm a little confused what you're trying to say here. The deck already has eleven self-sacrificial removal elements to support Persecutor. Either you remove him or an opponent goes to negative life totals. I'll take those choices any day of week.
No, it isn't the only advantage Abyssal Persecutor has over Tombstalker. The only time Tombstalker is effective is when you play Dark Ritual (with the inherent lack of fetches, which are unnecessary here anyway), and Dark Ritual is a terrible card in this deck (for the millionth time). The deck does not run Dark Ritual. Abyssal Persecutor is bigger and tramples over Tombstalker, in addition to the trillion other flying creatures the format has to offer. Tombstalker flips for eight damage, requires Dark Ritual to be effective, can be chump-blocked all day by Faeries, does not trample, and if bounced to the owner's hand requires you to "re-Delve" into an already depleted graveyard.I feel that the that the +1/+1 and trample isn't worth losing cards with such power level. Why dilute your deck with sac effects to support a creature a little bigger when you can play Tombstalker and preserve tempo and ld and hand disrupting strategies? Both beaststicks have a four turn clock and evasion and between my fetch count and instants/sorceries powering out 2 Stalkers a game is quite easy and can easily come down earlier then turn four without rituals. The only true pure advantage Persecutor has over Tombstalker is it is less painful when flipped with BOB.
Abyssal Persecutor contains none of these and is far greater a threat than Tombstalker would ever be. I will not waste an extra card slot to drop a big creature turn two or three only to have it removed or bounced thereafter. Seems terrible. You obviously didn't even read what the purpose of the deck is, which is not to dump your hand in hopes of winning the game too early by: Overextending your hand, depleting your resources, and hoping your opponent cannot stabilize in a single turn.
If you all are so keen about running Dark Ritual, by all means go for it. I hate the card in this deck and it does nothing more than waste four slots for something more useful. Does it really hurt that much that none of you have the patience to wait a turn? Discard is already in the deck and there is a smorgasbord of sacrificial removal to go around.
What is so special about Dark Ritual in mono-black decks? Do people not understand why these types of decks are labeled as "inconsistent"? Dark Ritual is without a doubt a catalyst. It has its advantages, sure. But this deck was specifically designed to stay away from the stereotypical mono-black shells that continue to fall into the depths of obscurity like every other single-colored black deck has. I have never done any worse than Top Four with my build because the deck is metagamed more than any other deck I can think of in the format today, and yet still maintains its effectiveness on its own merits. We need to use these slots people for more important resources and remember that (especially with Mystical Tutor gone), it is okay to wait a turn.
Dark Ritual is not a bad card, but it just doesn't fit into the scheme of things here.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 07-21-2010 at 10:48 AM.
Hey Hollywood,
whats ur most recent list :)?
I am stuck in a corner with my testing. What my latest thoughts are:
I kinda feel like the dork beeing mono black. Most of my opponents have much buiseness going on while i got a lot of sorcery speed.
Also i feel like "Just" the 4 Confidants are somehow not enough....i want some more draw/quality engine :(
Seconded. That's my only "problem" about the deck - Aside from Edicts (and rarely McFae and Wasteland) one does nothing to disturb the opponent on his/her turns. To that I must admit, I entirely cut the Smothers (which might still reveal itself to be a mistake).
Anyway, concerning the Ritual/Stalker-debate, I think of "the Gate" as this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explosiveness >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Suicide -------------------------- The Gate --------------- Mono-B Control
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< stablility <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The more or less abandoned archetype of MBC wants to disturb the opponent as much as possible, reach the lategame and then win through some Combo (Helm/Leyline) or big beater. No use for Rituals here.
Suicide on the other hand Disrupts in first turns, then drops a fast and low-costed clock (Stalker, Negator, Nantuko Shade) to win asap. To make this happen ritual is a must play because it enables T1 Duress+Hymn and/or T2 Stalker. Thus sacrificing stability for pure explosiveness.
The Gate lies more or less in the middle between those two extremes. It's more aggressive than MBC, but much more stable than Sui. Additionally it's designed to squeeze as much advantage as possible out of its components - most cards serve more than one purpose (Jitte, Fae, Blossom, Bob, Gatekeeper) or put serious pressure on the opponent (Persecutor, Nighthawk). AND they do this efficiently regarding their costs.
For reference, here is the list I currently run:
The Gate (as of 21JUL10)
[4x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[4x] Duress
[4x] Innocent Blood
[3x] Deathmark
[3x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Hymn to Tourach
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[2x] Bitterblossom
[16x] Swamp
[4x] Wasteland
//Sideboard
[4x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Dystopia
[3x] Nevinyrral's Disk
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Bitterblossom
[1x] Deathmark
As you can see, there have been no real major changes to the main deck since its inception. Most of the original pieces are still in place, as I have yet to run in to anything worth changing specific cards over.
One thing you may notice is that I have decided to keep Faerie Macabre in my main build as a good supplement for surprise graveyard removal. This may seem a bit odd (especially given Mystical Tutor's recent banning), but there are still many problematic cards in the format (Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, etc.) that really can become a nuisance. Because this deck is focused more on winning an attrition battle instead of an all-out blitz on my opponents' opening hands, I have determined Faerie Macabre to be an invaluable resource based on its uncounterability and surprise factor in many key circumstances. This is probably one of the best cards in the deck, and I keep it as a two-of in the main as an efficient, strategic solution to many inescapable problems.
I've also cut back on the amount of graveyard hate in the sideboard. Faerie serves dual-purpose, which is why a pair in the sideboard (along with the other two main-deck) helps perfectly compliment a full package of instant removal against 'yard "top-heavy" decks. It has worked magnificently thus far.
Deathmark continues to be the focus of discussion as far as boarding it in or running it main. I have had little (if any) trouble crafting the deck to work with this card because of how good it has really been for me. I've found myself in numerous instances taking out a turn one Nacatl or Hierarch, and the more and more redundant this gets the better and better the card becomes. I understand my removal elements are at sorcery-speed, which can be seen as troublesome. It really all depends on how you play your opening hand. Deathmark is a narrow, however effective Magic card that for its cost is rather hard for me to pass up.
There are so many removal spells black has to offer, it makes one wonder why Deathmark has become such a suitable choice for this deck to begin with. The fact is, there are other removal spells that work just as good (and sometimes better) on their own merit. Deathmark in today's Legacy scene is just so cheap and straight-forward, I see it as a very solid and very effective removal element that does not require a "drawback", if you will, as far as a loss of life is concerned. It does, however, require that you target a green or white creature - which just so happens to be the most popular set of colors that creatures sport in Legacy today.
This deck goes turn for turn on an opponent in that it manipulates each individual turn by destroying creatures or discarding cards one (or two) at a time. By drawing the game out a few turns longer, you can then safely proceed to the mid-game plan which allows you to begin establishing threats at an alarming rate. Cards like: Innocent Blood, Deathmark, and Gatekeeper of Malakir are very effective at what they do; it's the style of play one has to get used to in order to play (and appreciate) what this deck is trying to accomplish, and that is to draw the game out a few turns longer than a "traditional" mono-black deck would and force your opponent to succumb to "two-for-ones" that continue to drain his or her resources while amassing your own.
I've been testing this list a great deal on Workstation to some very impressive results. I see no reason (personally) to change anything so drastically as to include cards such as Howl from Beyond and Bad Moon, or restructuring the foundation for which the deck was built on by substituting removal for discard and Dark Rituals. It is just plain rhetoric at this point and I have no interest in those additions and subtractions at all. This is the list that works best for me and again, you'll notice very little changes from the original concept.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 07-23-2010 at 02:41 PM.
Hollywood, and what about SB? The most interesting for me is Bitterblossom. In what MU it can be useful? Against CounterTop? Uncounterable creatures...
I'm planning to take that build to my local FNM.
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