[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Hanni]

To those discussing Warchief vs Chieftan... why not just run 4 of each? That's what I do.

[raudo]

Hmm.. I'm not sure if 12x 3cc creatures (plus Incinerators) is a bit too much for the curve. Currently I run 4 Warchief and 2 Chieftain.

[jin]

To those discussing Warchief vs Chieftan... why not just run 4 of each? That's what I do.

done that been there.
just discussing advantages.

if you had a choice to cast one or the other.. which one would you choose?

[lotriderm]

done that been there.
just discussing advantages.

if you had a choice to cast one or the other.. which one would you choose?

The choice always depends on the board and the game state at that time since that will greatly affect which one I would drop. But in terms of in a vacuum, I will always drop Warchief first since the ability of "cheating" goblins into play is why goblins was/is a strong deck.

[Nelis]

2. yeah sure you get a land and "gain" a turn but you also lose your third turn so you broke even. You also lost a card that was valuable where as they lost a conditional counter spell which, by playing into it, you fulfilled.

1. I'm sorry, your scenario doesn't really make sense to me since its all damage based and that is all board dependant and removal dependant. I see that you are maximizing on damage outpout considering if there are no blockers but that doesn't happen in legacy. If there was a free lane, i'd drop all of my goblins too, but tempo isn't only about damage but about mana input, turn input and overall board position and against a deck packing daze, I think my board position is stronger if I have more goblins that stick rather than have less.

I think the beauty of goblins is, with any goblin and warchief and mana, we can apply pressure through the ability to explode, kinda like combo

EDITED NOTE: One more thing, a player that knows how to fight goblins and knows that you are walking into daze (sorry, that's a very strong player but it haappens) will know to let the chief go.. plow the chief.. and let you walk into the daze next turn (turn 4)

2. I don't think a zoo player will walk their pridemage into your 2/2 tokens unless they have removal, so in that scenario, I'm sure your chief and my chief would have both died. A decent zoo player would have attacked with only the 4/4 nacatl. How will you block it then? chump or gang?

3. I understand that. Your configuration makes sense if it is for the purpose of getting warchiefs later in the game. It is interesting in that sense.

4. Yeah, apparently you apply pressure with damage threats where as I apply pressure with sheer number of goblins. I think this is largely due to the fact that most of my opponents know how to fight goblins so they are simply scared of goblins where as your strategy might just scary everyone.

2./1. That's where we differ in opinion. Personally I think you underestimate the power of applying pressure and the land drop they're behind. The more room (turns) you give the control player the worse it is for you.

On the Edited Note: Don't forget that your opponent is in the dark about your hand. He doesn't know what I have in hand so the question is if he's willing to take that risk. Basically this is something we can argue about all day long. We can both think of enough situations where we or our opponent can make the wrong and/or right play.

I do think you're too scared about what the opponent might have in hand. For every solution he might have in hand he also might not have a solution in hand. And because of the explosiveness of our deck we can still punish our opponent at any stage of the game. I mean even if Chieftain is plowed and Ringleader is Dazed we play enough threats to compensate.

For me there would be one very strong reason not to play into Daze and that's if I have a tricky hand. But I should've mulliganed that one.

But to clarify once more I wont run into Daze if it isn't necessary. If I have a hand of say Piledriver, Warchief and Ringleader then I will play my Piledriver on turn 3, Warchief on turn 4 and Ringleader on turn 5. I'm not going to purposely let my Warchief be Dazed. But if I only had a Warchief and Ringleader in hand for instance then I would definitely play the Warchief on turn 3, risking it being Dazed. Because if they haven't Dazed then the next turn I can play Ringleader without any fear of Daze (even if they have draw one). Should the Ringleader flip a Piledriver then I would play it too. But I wonder what you would do?

2. I wouldn't be too sure about that (I play zoo a lot myself), as they still need to get their their damage in. Leaving us with more goblins is not a good situation for Zoo either. But if they only attack with Nacatl I'll chump because I need to get to the mid to late game ifIi want to beat Zoo.

3. Its not that I have less explosiveness with my configuration, I can still do all those explosiveness things. But in my experience that explosiveness happens not in early game but in mid to late game anyway. That's why I constructed my deck the way it is.

4. I think in general if we sum it up I sacrifice a bit of tempo loss (by running less Warchiefs) in early game for more applied pressure in the early game. But the early pressure I apply just as well needs to be answered by my opponent. I don't think both strategies differ in that aspect.

The choice always depends on the board and the game state at that time since that will greatly affect which one I would drop. But in terms of in a vacuum, I will always drop Warchief first since the ability of "cheating" goblins into play is why goblins was/is a strong deck.

But in a situation where your opponent might have a Daze, what would you do?

1. Play Warchief on turn 3 and Chieftain turn 4
2. Play Chieftain on turn 3 and Warchief turn 4
3. Wait a turn and play Warchief on turn 4 and Chieftain on turn 5
3. Wait a turn and play Chieftian on turn 4 and Warchief on turn 5

[GoboLord]

But in a situation where your opponent might have a Daze, what would you do?

1. Play Warchief on turn 3 and Chieftain turn 4
2. Play Chieftain on turn 3 and Warchief turn 4
3. Wait a turn and play Warchief on turn 4 and Chieftain on turn 5
4. Wait a turn and play Chieftian on turn 4 and Warchief on turn 5

In turn 3 expecting Daze, I would play around Daze. The answer depends on wether you expect removal or not. I'd rather see my Chieftain "Sworded" than my Warchief. Thefore:

Expecting removal: option 4
Expecting none: option 3

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I want to discuss a different topic:
we talked about what to bring in against what decks. We talked about flexible/effective SB cards, we talked wether to improve 50/50 MUs or only the bad one. This was all about sideboarding. So far we didnt talk about what to board out after G1. I feel there are cards in MD you NEVER board out while others are thrown out like every match. Here is what I think:

Never board out:
- Lands
- Lackey
- Vial
- Matron
- Piledriver
- Warchief

Possible cards to board out:
- 1 Ringleader (depending on how many non-Goblins you bring in)
- 1 SGC
- up to 3 Chieftain (I only run 3)
- 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
- either only Stingscourger (against Vial-Decks) or all removal (against Combo)


I most often kick out Chieftain. What do you think?

[ScatmanX]

@ Daze: I'd sacrifice Chieftein turn 3. I don't like fearing Daze the hole game. What happens 3 turns later, when you have 5 lands and a Siege-Gang? You wait more?

@SB:
Piledriver is bad in a lot of MU's. I run 4, and usually board out 3-4 agains't Zoo and in the mirror.
There are people that board out Lackey on the draw against removal heavy decks. Thats an option, but I don't like it.
Depending on the MU I board out a number of Ringleaders. Maybe even 4 (combo or Reanimator)

[Nelis]

In turn 3 expecting Daze, I would play around Daze. The answer depends on wether you expect removal or not. I'd rather see my Chieftain "Sworded" than my Warchief. Thefore:

Expecting removal: option 4
Expecting none: option 3

Interesting. I would play the Chieftain on turn 3 if I expect no removal. Its not said that they have a Daze and if they don't then its basically in the pocket. With goblins I wouldn't be too worried about not being able to put pressure on the board even if its Dazed.

I'm not so sure what I would do if I did expect removal, to be honest. I think I still would play chieftain on turn 3.

I want to discuss a different topic:
we talked about what to bring in against what decks. We talked about flexible/effective SB cards, we talked wether to improve 50/50 MUs or only the bad one. This was all about sideboarding. So far we didnt talk about what to board out after G1. I feel there are cards in MD you NEVER board out while others are thrown out like every match. Here is what I think:

Never board out:
- Lands
- Lackey
- Vial
- Matron
- Piledriver
- Warchief

Possible cards to board out:
- 1 Ringleader (depending on how many non-Goblins you bring in)
- 1 SGC
- up to 3 Chieftain (I only run 3)
- 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
- either only Stingscourger (against Vial-Decks) or all removal (against Combo)

I most often kick out Chieftain. What do you think?

Candidates:
Wort (in my Rb list I don't play her btw)
Chieftain
Possibly a Siege-Gang

Against certain match ups you could side out Vial. I think I would if I was playing against Dredge because it much more important to play either hate or lackey on turn one.

[Neuad]

Here's my current decklist that I'm running and really digging. Just added in sharpshooter taking out a Warren Instigator.

// Lands
3 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [U] Taiga
5 [BRB] Mountain (7)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void


SB Leylines over more conventional GY hate is because my meta runs a couple loam based decks, and no reanimator/dredge that I've seen yet. I'd rather start with a leyline against aggro loam and hopefully slow them down a turn or 2, which will give me the edge I need to explode.

And it will still slow Reanimator down.


Edit - Now I've been thinking about goblins and their lack of answers for damn near anything. . .what do you guys think of a wishboard + burning wishes SB?

4 Wishes
4 Leylines (GY hate is needed)
7 wish targets such as

Shattering Spree
Unearth
Reverent Silence
Shattering Spree
Chainer's Edict
Another Weirding or 2

I don't know what else but I'm just spit balling.

This would also stabalize a RBg manabase a bit, as we could take out all but 1 Taiga to fetch for when we want to Reverent Silence, and add in basic mountains.


Just thoughts I've been having, I'm sure its been talked about but hey whats the harm in bringing it up again

[Ozymandias]

If you're going to run wishes, you should really run them maindeck. There are dozens of good targets from Shattering Spree to Ruination to Patriarch's Bidding, but it's not really meshy with the main thrust of the deck.

[lotriderm]

But in a situation where your opponent might have a Daze, what would you do?

1. Play Warchief on turn 3 and Chieftain turn 4
2. Play Chieftain on turn 3 and Warchief turn 4
3. Wait a turn and play Warchief on turn 4 and Chieftain on turn 5
3. Wait a turn and play Chieftian on turn 4 and Warchief on turn 5

In turn 3 expecting Daze, I would play around Daze. The answer depends on wether you expect removal or not. I'd rather see my Chieftain "Sworded" than my Warchief. Thefore:

Expecting removal: option 4
Expecting none: option 3

Exactly what GoboLord said.

@ Sideboard

Zoo: I usually take out a couple Piledrivers. I like to leave my Lackeys to make deal with it either via blockers or removal. I try to make them burn removal of stuff like so hopefully my Warchiefs could stay alive. Also, a Path to Exile on my Lackey on turn is pretty awesome for me.

Countertop: I usually don't board in anything against them, so it really depends on what they going to bring in for game2 and I'll adjust game 3. But Piledrivers usually stay in to block those damn Rhox War Monks.

Reanimator/Combo: I take out out all my Ringleaders and removal for the appropiate hate.

Merfolk: I bring in Sharpshooter because an early Kira blanks all my removal.

New Horizon: Probably take out 2 Piledrivers, 1 Incinerator (I run 4 maindeck)

So, most of the time I'm usually taking out 2 Piledrivers out unless I either need to race (such as combo) or they have blue creatures.

[Nelis]

In turn 3 expecting Daze, I would play around Daze. The answer depends on wether you expect removal or not. I'd rather see my Chieftain "Sworded" than my Warchief. Thefore:

Expecting removal: option 4
Expecting none: option 3

But in a situation where your opponent might have a Daze, what would you do?

1. Play Warchief on turn 3 and Chieftain turn 4
2. Play Chieftain on turn 3 and Warchief turn 4
3. Wait a turn and play Warchief on turn 4 and Chieftain on turn 5
3. Wait a turn and play Chieftian on turn 4 and Warchief on turn 5

Exactly what GoboLord said.

I'm not sure if you guys interpreted my 'expecting daze' the way I meant it. I mean that you are not sure the opponent has a Daze in hand but he might've. Still the same answer?

@ Scatman: I would sacrifice Chieftain too on turn 3.

On Siege Gang. That's a question I find hard to answer without knowing more about the board situation and if Daze has already been played before. In general I would say I'll play it on turn 5.

[GoboLord]

I'm not sure if you guys interpreted my 'expecting daze' the way I meant it. I mean that you are not sure the opponent has a Daze in hand but he might've. Still the same answer?

Well, you wrote that we think the opponent "might have" Daze. I would take a lot of other things into consideraion before I decide wether or not to expect Daze:

- if he already played 2 Daze until turn 3 I would risk it.
- in G2 some decks board out daze to bring in Blue Elemental Blast, therefor I wouldn't play around it
- if he didnt play any Daze so far I would play around it.
- if he played Path to Exile (and we missed a landdrop-so we have 3 lands in t3) he might have decided not to Daze me, cause he wouldnt play PtE if he wants to Daze me (since he donates us an extra mana for Daze)
- if he played Ponder last turn and didn't shuffle he might have it
- if he has on blue land open to play Brainstorm in response, he might have or at least find Daze

[Gekoratel]

Hi I've began testing Goblins again after not playing it for quite so time, when Future Sight came out, and was looking on some tips on the Zoo matchup and to see if people thought some of my sideboarding was bad. Any help is appreciated. I'm seeing a lot of lists without Mogg War Marshall but I don't see how Goblins can realistically expect to beat Zoo without that card. For me the most important cards in the matchup are Vial, Wierding, and War Marshall. Hands that don't contain some combination of these cards generally end up getting rolled over. One nice benefit on the matchup is that if your boarding 5-6 cards for the MU then it gets much better post-board as Zoo generally has 0-2 cards that are coming in. I also haven't been impressed with Goblin Chieftain but I haven't played a ton of games with the card.

4 Mountain
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Warren Weirding
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Perish
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Open Slot that I haven't decided on yet

Zoo
-3 Goblin Piledriver -3 Goblin Lackey
+3 Pyrokinesis +3 Perish

Thoter CB
-3 Warren Wierding -3 Gempalm Incinerator
+2 Leyline of the Void +3 Krosan Grip +1 Tin Street Hooligan

Merfolk //Wierding is terrible vs. Mutavault
-3 Warren Wierding
+3 Pyrokinesis

New Horizons
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
+3 Perish

NO CB //not sure how to board here
-3 Mogg War Marshall -2 Siege Gang Commander
+2 Krosan Grip +3 Perish

Mirror
-3 Warren Weirding -2 Piledriver
+3 Pyrokinesis +1 Tin Street +1 Krosan Grip

Reanimator //how bad is Gempalm in this matchup?
-2 Gempalm Incinerator -1 Mogg War Marshall
+4 Leyline of the Void

Thanks again.

[Skub]

I am going to start playing goblins. Where can I find some articles about goblins or which articles do you suggest to read?

[FoulQ]

@ Gekoratel: Well then welcome back to goblins.

1. Thopter CB, boarding in 2 leylines? Seems a little crazy to me.
2. Merfolk, Weirding isn't that bad against merfolk, and in fact mutavault is the bitch we want dead, but it's still probably the best thing to board out against most versions.
3. NO CB, you don't need krosan grip against most versions in my opinion. And you DEFINITELY want at least one SGC against counterbalance decks, because it gives you a late game punch to try and match theirs. Otherwise you will have no ace up your sleeve if the game stalls out (which it does often in this matchup, maybe moreso the non-NO versions, but it does regardless). It highly depends on the version of the deck for boarding so I don't think having premade notes works here. For ex, say they play noble heirarch. How important is it to their gameplan? Are there 3cc-4cc cards gamebreaking againts goblins? What SB cards do they have for goblins, and how important is it for them to have access to all their colors against you, and how dedicated are you to using your wastelands? These could all be factors in playing gempalm. And then you would have to analyze each and every creature and how important gempalm would be. It's a hard matchup to board for, for sure, though I would board out MWM pretty much every time. So I don't think it is as simple as a few numbers.
4. Mirror, I don't think you should board in krosan grip. It's so tight in the aggro race that drawing that could screw you. I'd rather have the 3rd piledriver I think.

@ Skub, I don't think you are going to have much luck finding good goblins articles, especially up-to-date ones. Pretty much every goblin article I've read is bad and barely scratches the surface. Most of them come off as "goblins can't compete" (might be valid but doesn't help you learn the deck) or "goblins isn't all about turning sideways" (no crap everyone knows that sherlock).

[Gekoratel]

1. Thopter CB, boarding in 2 leylines? Seems a little crazy to me.

I'm boarding in Leyline because it stops the Thopter/Sword combo of the deck, many lists are boarding additional copies of these cards so they are seen more frequently. The main reason I'm boarding in the 2 Leylines is because the alternatives of Gempalm or Wierding is just terrible as they have 0 targets for the card. Two leylines means you will almost never have 2 in your opening hand and its a reasonable spell to drop after they've spent resources tutoring for one of the combo pieces. I realize that Thopter/Sword is their plan B after dropping Moat/Ensnaring Bridge/Humility but it will be part of their plan at some point and I don't have anything else in the board for that MU.

2. Merfolk, Weirding isn't that bad against merfolk, and in fact mutavault is the bitch we want dead, but it's still probably the best thing to board out against most versions.

I just assumed I wouldn't want to give them 2 Goblin tokens for them losing 1 land, and I also can't think of anything else in the deck that wants to come out except maybe Siege Gang since its hard to cast through Waste/Stifle not that it matters much since this is an ez MU.

@NOCB - I really wasn't sure about Krosan Grip since CB isn't that bad for you between Vial and 3-4cc threats but I've seen that CB lists have started running more cards like Rhox War Monk and Knight of Reliquary so thought that I may want Grip. I thought Gempalm would be fine here so I could kill RWM and other small creatures making Wierding stronger.

@Mirror - I haven't played this MU in awhile but it was all about Vial advantage before especially after board where Pyrokinesis means aggressive starts aren't going to be as viable. This means the game will go long and mana disruption from Waste/Port is quite relevant so if one guy has Vial and the other doesn't then they are heavily favored.

Thanks for the tips, anything about Zoo would be cool also.

[freakish777]

Thanks for the tips, anything about Zoo would be cool also.

Hey Jeff, I think a lot of Goblins players are playing Stingscourger over War Marshal, but you're definitely right that War Marshal helps against Zoo, where as Stingscourger helps you push damage through against blue decks that rely on Goyf/RWM blocking.

I'm pretty sure pre-board against Zoo you're looking for Incinerator to kill anything as quickly as possible (get Lackey/Driver down and Incinerator their Lavamancer/Lynx immediately, even if it means taking risks that they could Bolt/Path your guy in response) so you can get as many land drops on the highest life total as possible. This means you're not trying to Waste/Port them (if anything you want them to draw as many lands as possible). Zoo obviously doesn't have a card advantage engine on the same level as Goblins, so you're just looking to let them play their cards out and maintain as high a life total as possible for trying to cut their guys down where possible.

I think boarding out Goblin Lackey against Zoo is incorrect. Not because you're ever going to attack with him, but because he's the only 1 drop Goblin you're playing. If I were on the play post board against Zoo, I'd much rather have Goblin Lackey in my opening hand than Perish. Playing him forces your opponent to play their Lightning Bolt instead of their creature. If they don't you're threatening to blow them out, so you're willing trading your 1 casting cost creature with their Lightning Bolt (or better yet Path) to try and get as many turns without any real action between the decks so you can take advantage of the top end of your curve. If they play Wild Nacatl instead of a removal spell, there's still the chance to blow them out without Incinerator, either with Weirding or Wasteland (Nacatl goes to 1/1 and has to block, which you're more than happy with, especially if you have a Vial, for reference, this is about the only time I would Wasteland against Zoo in this match up is to trade a Lackey with a Nacatl). On the draw post board, I'd also rather have more 1 drops than 3cc "Wraths" that still doesn't take out the most important creature (Lavamancer) of theirs. Perish is good, don't get me wrong, but the whole point is to try and stabalize above 10 life or so, so you're not in danger of getting burned out, which I'm not sure you'll be able to do without chump blockers.

[Neuad]

Zoo is almost a gaurenteed loss for goblins. I hate to say it, I'd love it if people found a way around it. . .but its like 90/10 in their favor pre-board and probably 95/5 post, because alot of zoo's run Jitte and Stoneforge SB if not MB. I've seen 1 Jitte/Stoneforge MB with another Jitte and Basilisk Collar SB which is just killer.

Their creatures are bigger and faster. Their burn kills every single one of our goblins.


The one thing I've seen tossed around that I haven't seen tested is King + Patriarchs Bidding SB.

Let them tap down doing whatever, matron for king, king for the win.

[Nelis]

Zoo is almost a gaurenteed loss for goblins. I hate to say it, I'd love it if people found a way around it. . .but its like 90/10 in their favor pre-board and probably 95/5 post, because alot of zoo's run Jitte and Stoneforge SB if not MB. I've seen 1 Jitte/Stoneforge MB with another Jitte and Basilisk Collar SB which is just killer.

I havent played Rb in a while so Im not sure about that match-up.

But Zoo doesn't beat Mono R goblins that easily at all, it's around 60/40 in Zoo's favor.
Jitte is a bitch indeed but there are plenty people who do not run equipment in their zoo builds.

On Lackey: I would definitely keep lackey in too for the reasons mentioned by Freakish 777