I'm glad were all arguing over irrelevant things.
Okay, so let's get btt.Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
While goldfishing I found myself going for Returns quite often, am I doing something wrong? I mean, I don't want to complain, because Returns always gives me a win, but I find it to be quite awkward to go for it ~20% of the time.
Also, no Deathmark in the SB? Why that? It's cheaper than Eye of Nowhere and more on-color than a spell with a MC of UU.
Iona names black. It also bounces random ass enchantments.
I go for returns a lot too.
Went 4-0 today with emidln's 3c TES (-1 Chrome mox, -1 Ponder +2 Cabal Ritual)
Round 1: Bye
Round 2: Merfolk
Game1: Burning Wish with into 12 goblin tokens on turn 2.
Game 2: He plays turn 1 Vial with Wasteland and he misses his 2nd land drop. On turn 3 I play Thoughtseize followed by AdN but I get only rituals, Infernals, cantrips and the 2nd AdN so I have to stop at 1 life (started at 16). I play Brainstorm with Petal and find nothing. He has a creature on his side so I have no other choice than to Infernal for another ritual and play the 2nd AdN. It reveals land, land and LED!
Round 3: Zoo
Game 1: On turn 3 my hand is double Burning Wish + LED + rituals. I kill with IGG loop.
Game 2: He plays turn 2 Gaddock Teeg followed by turn 3 Pyrostatic Pillar.. I lose.
Game 3: Turn 3 I have a lone Sea in play while he has double Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl. My hand is Chain of Vapor, Chrome Mox, DRit, CRit, Petal, Rite, 2x Burning Wish -> Tendrils for 20 lifeloss = win
Round 4: Dredge
Game 1: I Thoughtseize his Breakthrough and he no other outlet, but he topdecks Careful Study and is soon ready to go off with Cephalid Coliseum and some dredgers. I have to do something, but my only good play is to wish for Diminishing Returns and float some mana. My new 7 cards contain some LEDs, a ritual, Petal and cantrips. I play Brainstorm and find AdN + lands. I have to put AdN back on top and play another cantrip while breaking the LEDs in order to pay for it. I quickly find Wish and kill him.
Game 2: Before he reaches his critical turn, I go off with AdN but I reveal mostly useless/expensive cards and I am 1 mana short of killing him. I am at 2 life and have to flip another card... Cabal Ritual :<. I started at 18 life so I was a bit annoyed that it fizzled.
Game3: He has to mull to 4 and the game goes long since he uses Unmask and Therapy to Mind Twist me. He draws only lands and eventually hardcasts Flame-Kin Zealot!! I take some hits from hardcasted Ichorids and FKZ before I am able to play threshed Cabal + artifact mana into Tendrils followed by Burning Wish into some goblin tokens that take him down in 2 turns.
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Congratulations on the finish!
Tough luck about the Ad nauseam flips, but who cares with your record
Could you please post your list? I'd be interested in seeing it and don't have access to the Storm Boards.
Sure
// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [ST] Island (3)
1 [A] Badlands
2 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [6E] Swamp (3)
// Spells
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [5E] Dark Ritual
4 [US] Duress
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [MM] Pulverize
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 3 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
I know some people don't like Cabal Ritual, but I'm a fan of it and this deck can get thresh really fast. I lost a game against Dredge because I flipped it at 2 life (would have won if it were Chrome Mox instead), but it also won me atleast 2 games where I would probably not have won if it were the Mox.
I still fail to see how 5cc mana base + chants > 3cc4/4cc stable mana base with Duress/Seize in a metagame where CB is present/dominant. Discard isn't exactly the ultimate answer against CB, but it's damn better than Chant,
Have you been to any events within the last 6 months? There's way more tempo decks than counterbalance at the upper tables. Chant shines versus tempo decks and doesn't lose you two life. It's not a terrible idea to play both Discard and Chant. That way you don't auto lose to either Tempo or CB.
I was thinking about playing this card at least locally to give it a shot. Any experience with it beyond the normal testing Bryant? I know it's on your list on the front page, but I still keep coming back to this one. What did you hate about it or was it borderline?
Determined
It seems good since it does turn off a CB while being halfway decent against regular counters. I just hate it's mana cost, though the draw redeems it a little bit. I really don't like relying on Duress/Thoughtseize to stop a CB. CB is just too devastating and hunting up bounce or Grips just sucks. I hate the idea that if they get one out there, you are basically screwed. It's not great being 2cc, but at least if they don't have a 2 handy, you can slip everything past it afterwards.
If they don't have a two handy, you might as well Wish for Eye, no?
The thing is that it's not 2cmc. It's 7 cmc.
Not a good idea in an Ad Nauseam powered deck.
Agreed. Losing 7 life to flip a protection spell doesn't sound good at all.
However, in other non-AdN storm decks, it could be good. If you're already running green.
I think it isn't very good due to the facts you have just said. When flipped with ad nauseum it is 7 damage. Also vs counterbalance most of the time 1 and 2 are the most frequent number for them to have on top of their deck, which makes it very hard to resolve vs a counterbalance. Fortunately for combo players right now the format seems to be working its way to slow control decks, like enchantress or landstill, and aggro decks, like zoo and goblins, at least in my area. This shift in my meta game has pushed most decks with counterbalance top out of the top spots as they aren't very good vs either of those kind of decks.
It's 2cc in the case where I want it unfortunately. It's as a side, I'd be willing to actually board out AN go have a good chance to punch through an active CB top combo on the board. It's rare I use AN anyway, I have a habit of going the old fashioned way. I never liked using AN when playing against a lot of burn and I even play the full set of Moxes. CB top is the only thing I fear really though. I can play all day and barely lose a game to Zoo w hatebears or Landstill w piles of non-CB counters.
I want to be able to board heavy to shore up that scary match of CB/Top in a shell that has a quick clock. Those decks scare me. I feel comfortable playing against everything, but that. Ok, Merfolk can be annoying too. I hate counters with clocks.
I've been thinking about this actually. The card seems better than chant effects, as it allows you to punch spells through Chalice-type effects, as well as counterspells and Counter-Top. The only thing I can think of that it won't stop is Stifle. Running it alongside Swarms sounds like a lot of protection in a small package.
It also doesn't stop mindbreak trap (although that shouldn't be too relevant anymore).
Anymore implies that Mindbreak Trap was once relevent...
Team Hammafist
I mentioned this on the stormboards. One of my friends plays his own Bant CB deck, hes got Force, Daze, and CounterTop maindeck. Even with that and the relatively quick clock he has in that deck (Lots of exalted with Knotvine Paladin) he still has 3-4 Spell Pierce and 3-4 Mindbreak Trap in the board. He also just added the NO-Progenitus combo.
I keep telling him it weakens his other matchups to run a sideboard like that and that he should include some Jitte or maybe EE. Somehow he still manages to get matched up to storm combo in two of his first three rounds.
I went 5-2 today in vestal taking 9th place with my current list. I did some INSANE plays.
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