[Article] What Next for Legacy? Formatscaping

[Rico Suave]

My point is still "show me a pattern of dominance by MT decks". I was simply giving examples of where the bar was. Academy warped a format around itself and was banned with a quickness.

Yes, I understood your point.

My point was the bar you're talking about was already reached. Academy warped a format and only put 2 decks into the top 8 of the PT it was legal in. That's it. Not 3 decks. 2.

It really does not take much.

[3eowulf]

I think this video could clear some points about the future of our format (2nd one, from ~18:50).

It's an interview with Aaron Forsythe, not about legacy but magic in general.

We might deduce that, in fact, the bosses didn't find combo to be dominant, but simply don't want it as a pillar of the metagame.

As the opening article wonders, do we want them to mess with the format based on their views of the game, or do we prefer a more "liberal" approach? And is it feasible to ask for the format to be supported (with GPs) whitout their "formatscaping"?

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

I have to say I was really impressed by Aaron's answer to that last question. Though I still think MT-enabled combo naturally beats every other archetype with a sufficiently skilled pilot, Aaron's opinion on combo sounds perfectly reasonable. Rocks-paper-scissors is so beyond brainless to me that I couldn't imagine being interested in Magic over time if that's all it was.

Even if the absence of powerful combo creates a temporary power vacuum that's ultimately filled by a broad spectrum of aggro and control decks with the occasional coinflip combo crap with ~50/50 matchups for all, that sounds a whole lot better than A>B>C>A with 80% certainty.

[Grollub]

Don't ever put Jar.dec into an argument about where the power bar was, or is. As someone that played with and against it in the few weeks it was legit, I can say without a second of doubt say it was the greatest fuckup Wizard has ever made; not even Flash or Necropotence was close. That aside, comparing Ant and Academy is interesting: especially since beating Academy in Rome was much easier than beating Ant in 2010. ;)

[JeroenC]

My point was the bar you're talking about was already reached. Academy warped a format and only put 2 decks into the top 8 of the PT it was legal in. That's it. Not 3 decks. 2.

ANT and Reanimator can hardly be called format-warping as long as Zoo lists were still as viable as they are without maindeck changes. Format warping decks are not decks that require 6+ sideboard slots. They are decks that require 8+ sideboard slots and 6+ maindeck slots.

[Eddy Wally]

Don't ever put Jar.dec into an argument about where the power bar was, or is. As someone that played with and against it in the few weeks it was legit, I can say without a second of doubt say it was the greatest fuckup Wizard has ever made; not even Flash or Necropotence was close. That aside, comparing Ant and Academy is interesting: especially since beating Academy in Rome was much easier than beating Ant in 2010. ;)

I saw that deck in action too then (I played casual big green decks in those days). If you'ld take the 1998 Jar type 2 deck, and if you'd somehow be allowed to you could participate with it in a vintage tournament today, you'd do pretty well. As much as I disliked the big presence of storm combo in our metagame before the bannings, that was nothing compared to that one month when everybody wanted to play that brutal deck.

turn 1: land-mana vault-petal: tap, sac for U, tinker the vault, fetch Jar - draw seven - mox diamond - ritual - grim monolith - jar again - petal -ritual megrim go : opponent discards two hands of seven cards, takes 28, gg

[Rico Suave]

ANT and Reanimator can hardly be called format-warping as long as Zoo lists were still as viable as they are without maindeck changes. Format warping decks are not decks that require 6+ sideboard slots. They are decks that require 8+ sideboard slots and 6+ maindeck slots.

Ha.

Zoo *was* changing 6+ maindeck and 8+ SB slots for the metagame.

So were the blue decks too.

[JeroenC]

I don't know a lot of blue decks that changed maindeck cards dude, so you must have a real shifted meta. And other than playing a couple of Gaddock Teegs possibly (which also help against EE and WoG), I don't see Zoo playing 6+ maindeck cards.

[Rico Suave]

I don't know a lot of blue decks that changed maindeck cards dude, so you must have a real shifted meta. And other than playing a couple of Gaddock Teegs possibly (which also help against EE and WoG), I don't see Zoo playing 6+ maindeck cards.

Then you're not looking hard enough.

Compare this post-MT banning Zoo deck:


4Windswept Heath
4Wooded Foothills
1Arid Mesa
2Taiga
2Plateau
1Savannah
1Tropical Island
1Volcanic Island
3Wasteland
1Skarrg, the Rage Pits
1Forest
1Plains

4Wild Nacatl
3Grim Lavamancer
3Noble Hierarch
4Qasali Pridemage
4Tarmogoyf
4Knight of the Reliquary

4Lightning Bolt
4Chain Lightning
4Path to Exile
2Sylvan Library
2Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard:
3Tormod's Crypt
3Red Elemental Blast
4Meddling Mage
3Pyroblast
2Krosan Grip

To this pre-MT banning Zoo deck:


Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Loam Lion
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants
2 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 Price of Progress

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast

Both achieved first place in large tournaments.

Do you see how cards like Sylvan, Noble Hierarch, and Elspeth in the 1st list are really, really bad choices in a meta with Mystical Tutor but pretty good without it? And do you see how the 2nd Zoo list has 7 extra SB cards that hate on storm/grave above and beyond the 1st list?

Blue decks were doing the same thing. Look at this list that won the last major SCG 5k pre-MT banning:


Artifacts
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Tormod's Crypt

Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifact Lands
1 Seat of the Synod

Basic Lands
6 Island
2 Plains

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Humility
1 Serenity
1 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast

Now you could say that this deck doesn't have 6 cards changed in the main to fight the MT decks, but that is also in part because it has a toolbox approach (and it still has a *maindeck* Tormod's Crypt!).

Look at the SB alone. Most Thopters decks now are playing 2-3 graveyard hate between main and board, where this one is playing 5 plus 4 Canonist. Please don't tell me that everything is normal when a Counterbalance deck needs to board in 4 Ethersworn Canonist to beat Mystical Tutor decks.

If you want a better example, look at a deck like New Horizons. I'm pretty sure that deck is all but obsolete in a format without reanimator/storm.

The point is that Mystical Tutor most certainly warped the format whether it "dominated" or not.

[ddt15]

From what I have seen so far from the 'new' metagame:
- Reanimator is dead.
- TES is the new (old?) ANT.

[JeroenC]

@Rico Suave: Elspeth and Library are not Zoo cards. They are good cards in general (good Rock cards to be more specific).
The pre-banning list does not run "anti"-Storm cards maindeck- it runs faster cardchoices. In the sideboard, it has 4 *specific* Storm defense cards: mindbreak trap. It also has Pyroblasts which are just good sideboard cards and were run before and after Storm. PoP is good against Storm, but has many matchups where it is even better. So thanks for saving me the trouble of looking up stuff to prove my point. Aggro adapting just a little bit when Combo exists (in any form) is nothing more than normal.
The post-bannings list has 4 Meddling Mage (combo hate? Yeah, I thought so) as well as six REB cards. More relevant cards than the pre-banning version.

I was only talking about Storm to start with. Since the unbanning of Entomb, I've also thought Reanimator was easily the best Legacy deck. It had ridiculously few bad matchups as far as I could tell and Entomb + MT gave it a huge range of toolboxes. But blue decks having 4 cards that are relevant in MULTIPLE matchups is not warping. It's normal.

You give evidence that MT was a format-shaping and defining card (like Wild Nacatl, Counterbalance, Force of Will and fetchlands). But I still don't see how you can possibly believe it was a warping card. Flash was a warping card and only warping cards should be banned outside of formatshaping.

[towishimp]

I couldn't agree more with Forsythe's opinion of combo decks. What has kept from from playing Vintage is my perception that it's all about "insane plays" and that the game can be over in a flash. When I see combo decks in legacy that can reliable win before some of my favorite decks play a spell, it gives me the same feeling and makes me much less enthusiastic about the format. I know many people who feel the same.

As a "for instance": I recently got back into Magic, looking to play primarily Legacy. I attended my first tournament yesterday, the format being "casual". Last week my friend won the same tournament easily with a Glipse of Nature Elves storm combo deck. I showed up with him this week, and instantly drew comments from several players about his deck from last week. He played a different deck this week, because, by his own admission, combo "felt like cheating."

Poke flaws in my anecdote all you want, but the bottom line is that combo is potentially a huge put-off to new players that might come to the format, because to many players (new and old), combo decks don't feel like Magic. Once I've put up my resistance and they've fought through it, the rest of the game consists of me watching them go off. In what universe is that fun for anyone? Innovators should be rewarded, like Forsythe said; but they shouldn't become a huge factor in the metame that requires extreme measures to have a chance against.

I know tons of people will disagree, but I'm sure lots will agree too.

[Piceli89]

I couldn't agree more with Forsythe's opinion of combo decks. What has kept from from playing Vintage is my perception that it's all about "insane plays" and that the game can be over in a flash. When I see combo decks in legacy that can reliable win before some of my favorite decks play a spell, it gives me the same feeling and makes me much less enthusiastic about the format. I know many people who feel the same.

As a "for instance": I recently got back into Magic, looking to play primarily Legacy. I attended my first tournament yesterday, the format being "casual". Last week my friend won the same tournament easily with a Glipse of Nature Elves storm combo deck. I showed up with him this week, and instantly drew comments from several players about his deck from last week. He played a different deck this week, because, by his own admission, combo "felt like cheating."

Poke flaws in my anecdote all you want, but the bottom line is that combo is potentially a huge put-off to new players that might come to the format, because to many players (new and old), combo decks don't feel like Magic. Once I've put up my resistance and they've fought through it, the rest of the game consists of me watching them go off. In what universe is that fun for anyone? Innovators should be rewarded, like Forsythe said; but they shouldn't become a huge factor in the metame that requires extreme measures to have a chance against.

I know tons of people will disagree, but I'm sure lots will agree too.

If the metagame where your friend triumphed folded to Combo Elves, there's something wrong either about the stage of development of that meta or about the skill of its players (but if it consisted of White Weenie and Vial Rats it's prefectly acceptable), the matter it's not in playing "combo" or not. I
That's playing combo with creatures, which is the worst and more gateable thing one could ever pull together.
Landstill smashes it, Reb-based aggro-control smashes it. Other Storm Combo smashes it.

[ddt15]

I couldn't agree more with Forsythe's opinion of combo decks. What has kept from from playing Vintage is my perception that it's all about "insane plays" and that the game can be over in a flash. When I see combo decks in legacy that can reliable win before some of my favorite decks play a spell, it gives me the same feeling and makes me much less enthusiastic about the format. I know many people who feel the same.

As a "for instance": I recently got back into Magic, looking to play primarily Legacy. I attended my first tournament yesterday, the format being "casual". Last week my friend won the same tournament easily with a Glipse of Nature Elves storm combo deck. I showed up with him this week, and instantly drew comments from several players about his deck from last week. He played a different deck this week, because, by his own admission, combo "felt like cheating."

Poke flaws in my anecdote all you want, but the bottom line is that combo is potentially a huge put-off to new players that might come to the format, because to many players (new and old), combo decks don't feel like Magic. Once I've put up my resistance and they've fought through it, the rest of the game consists of me watching them go off. In what universe is that fun for anyone? Innovators should be rewarded, like Forsythe said; but they shouldn't become a huge factor in the metame that requires extreme measures to have a chance against.

I know tons of people will disagree, but I'm sure lots will agree too.

How is combo winning in itself different from other decks? If you play a zoo deck its always the last burn spell that kills you (usually almost as fast as a combo deck) yet noone is ever gonna ban burn. The whole point of playing against combo is to prevent him to assemble all the pieces he needs. Once it is assembled the game is over, just like you would go to 0 life after that last burn spell. Now Tendrils with mystical was pretty good at overcoming that but Glimpse Elves?? Surely there must be a thousand cards that prevent this from winning.