I totaly agree with Nelis.Originally Posted by Nelis
I'm playing Rb and I tested this MU a lot with a friend of mine. I'd say it's - as Nelis said - like 60/40 in Zoo's favor. In Rb you have Perish in SB which Mono R doesnt.
@ Neuad:
We already found a way to fight Zoo effectively:
As soon you are realizing you are playing against Zoo, you have to act as a control deck. Kill as much creatures as possible, take only damage that you cant avoid, sacrifice your creatures, wait for Perish. In Later turns they run out of resources and you can beat them with Siege-Gang Comander and Ringleader. I've tested this strategy and it works out in most cases. If your RIngleaders fuck up with you, you cant win that easily, but overall, you have enough meat to feed their Cats.
Most Zoo lists dont run Jitte MD, neither do they run Basilisk Collar and/or Stoneforge Mystic - that's simply not true.
If you say that our MU is around 95/5 in their favor, you simply have to practice this MU more often (or at least once!).
Well alot around me run equip and I'm extremely unlucky then.
I've been testing this MU quite extensively as I believe Zoo will be the most popular deck at the GP and was getting results between 40-60 and 45-55 against Zoo pre-board but I have been beating it quite handily after board since most lists aren't bringing in any cards. But I also tested against the version boarding in 2 Jitte and it wasn't that big a deal. I can see what everyone is saying about Lackey and the argument makes a lot of sense I will keep him in for now on but if you have to board out an additional 2 cards what would it be?
While I agree that you want to try and kill their early guys and minimize damage Incinerator doesn't do a great job in this matchup since most lists aren't running Steppe Lynx the only realistic target for Incinerator before the late game is Lavamancer. This is why I like Warren Wierding much more in this matchup. I'd have to imagine that Mono-Red Goblins would have a much harder time than Rb because Wierding is one of the 3 most important cards in the matchup. I think Wasteland can be fine in this matchup but you need an active Vial to try and slow them down with Wastelands. Porting in generally pointless unless you see them miss their 3rd land drop.I'm pretty sure pre-board against Zoo you're looking for Incinerator to kill anything as quickly as possible (get Lackey/Driver down and Incinerator their Lavamancer/Lynx immediately, even if it means taking risks that they could Bolt/Path your guy in response) so you can get as many land drops on the highest life total as possible. This means you're not trying to Waste/Port them (if anything you want them to draw as many lands as possible). Zoo obviously doesn't have a card advantage engine on the same level as Goblins, so you're just looking to let them play their cards out and maintain as high a life total as possible for trying to cut their guys down where possible.
I see what everyone is saying about Lackey's value now and it probably gets better with Pyrokinesis as you can clear the way for him to get through also. I think your greatly underestimating the strength of Perish though the deck has 14-15 green creatures and those creatures are all the best cards in their deck against you. It's near impossible to kill Goyf/Knight of Reliquary with Gempalm until the very late game where you have already stabalized and dealing 3 to Nactal is also difficult in the early game which you seem to make it sound very easy to do. An opening hand with Mogg War Marshall and Perish can be an ez GG against Zoo. As for the more one drops vs. Perish argument the only other semi-relevant one drop is Mogg Fanatic and he's so bad post M10 rule change I couldn't imagine playing him in the main or board. Perish is a high value card against Zoo, NO Bant, and New Horizons.I think boarding out Goblin Lackey against Zoo is incorrect. Not because you're ever going to attack with him, but because he's the only 1 drop Goblin you're playing. If I were on the play post board against Zoo, I'd much rather have Goblin Lackey in my opening hand than Perish. Playing him forces your opponent to play their Lightning Bolt instead of their creature. If they don't you're threatening to blow them out, so you're willing trading your 1 casting cost creature with their Lightning Bolt (or better yet Path) to try and get as many turns without any real action between the decks so you can take advantage of the top end of your curve. If they play Wild Nacatl instead of a removal spell, there's still the chance to blow them out without Incinerator, either with Weirding or Wasteland (Nacatl goes to 1/1 and has to block, which you're more than happy with, especially if you have a Vial, for reference, this is about the only time I would Wasteland against Zoo in this match up is to trade a Lackey with a Nacatl). On the draw post board, I'd also rather have more 1 drops than 3cc "Wraths" that still doesn't take out the most important creature (Lavamancer) of theirs. Perish is good, don't get me wrong, but the whole point is to try and stabalize above 10 life or so, so you're not in danger of getting burned out, which I'm not sure you'll be able to do without chump blockers.
I can imagine that you lose a lot against decks that pack Jitte. If it's really the case then maybe you should to put more focus on Jitte hate in your sideboard. You could put in 2 Scrappers for instance just to help you out a bit more. The other option is to play another deck.
With mono Red the focus is very much on getting in as little damage as possible early game and overwhelm them later on. But Incinerator is still very necessary. It isn't quick to kill a Nacatl in the early turns but I have used Incinerator often enough to kill Lavamancers, Pridemages, Nacatls and even Tarmogoyfs. In my opinion War Marshal is key in this match up. I haven't decided if its needed to mulligan into one but its a fact you need them to survive. You also need Ringleaders to hit goblins.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Greetings, Sourcers. I want to introduce myself.
My local store is having weekly Legacy tournaments now, and for my first one I took Rb Vial Goblins, losing to Zoo and drawing against Zoo; made top 4, and lost to the Zoo deck I lost to in Swiss.
My meta is pretty diverse and includes Zoo, Landstill, Reanimator, Dredge, Horizons, Faeries, 43lands, Monoblack, Merfolk, and the mirror being among the decks I observed with 22 players in attendance.
I ran: Vial/Lackey/Pile/Matron/Warchief/Ringleader/Gempalm as 4s, 2 commanders/scourgestingers, 3 wierdings, 1 sharpshooter, and 1 chieftain. 23 lands, with 4 wastes, 3 ports, 6 mountains, 7 fetch, and 3 badlands.
I liked the ports, they won me a game against landstill (kept him off his wrath/elspeth) and a game in the mirror where he kept a 2 land no vial hand. In testing with 4, I was sometimes red shy, but I'm still wondering if I should go up to 4 for the control matchups. Thoughts would be appreciated although this might be a topic already discussed to death.
My more pressing question is, if I were to change the deck to improve my Zoo matchup, what would you guys recommend? I realize that this seems to be the current topic of discussion, and I don't want to be redundant, but I figured I would just summarize my thoughts on the matter at the risk of being repetitive or asking for information already provided.
The post history seems to suggest MWM - is that the consensus on the single best card to run? I've also seen some talk of lightning bolt, or just more scourgers. What would you remove from my list to add the anti-zoo element? I'm thinking maybe between the chieftain, the sharpshooter, 1 scourgestinger, 1 gelmpalm, and maybe 1 land. I've seen numerous lists with 22, but sometimes being land shy just sucked in testing so I went in with 23 (and didn't really experience manascrew, although that's hardly conclusive).
My zoo board was 4 perish and 3 pyrokensis, although I'm wondering if it was the wrong call to board in the pyros. I ended up rather goblin shy in game 2 of the semis when I lost. Perhaps perish is enough, and I should just keep the pyros in the side unless I'm up against the mirror or fish?
So anyhow, it seems like Zoo is going to be a powerful force at my store, and I'd like to find a way to make the matchup a bit more even. It would be nice not to have to feel like I have to play another deck, since I just invested a couple hundred bucks to put this together.
As an aside much as I'd like more chieftains (and gator), I have no idea what to cut to include those cards. The core seems so necessary, and cutting the removal seems like it would only hurt the Zoo matchup.
Thanks for any insight ya'll might have.
-Tal
I 100% agree. I'm just saying that your optimal draw basically involves an Incinerator taking out a Lynx/Lavamancer/Pridemage, so that your Weirding actually takes out their big guy. I don't think you'll take out Nacatl very often with Gempalm unless it involves Wasteland making him a 2/2 or 1/1.
Not at all. Perish is very good, I just don't think you can afford to let their green creatures deal damage to you in combat while you're waiting around for 3 mana to cast Perish. Having War Marshal + Perish might be game against them, but without War Marshal, you could very well play Perish only to have them burn you out afterwards.I think your greatly underestimating the strength of Perish though the deck has 14-15 green creatures and those creatures are all the best cards in their deck against you.
This is a complete guess on my part, but I think I would board out maybe Warchief against Zoo before Lackey to bring in Perish. Warchief is good against decks where you're playing the beatdown, not the control, and if you're chump blocking with him, a 1 mana creature is better. Also, he's the same casting cost as Perish, so you're not losing speed against a beatdown deck (when your creatures needing haste becomes relevant, you should hopefully be able to Matron for 1 at that point).
Also, you maybe should consider Goblin Pyromancer for your last SB slot. Whenever a Goblins players Matrons that guy up and I'm playing a control deck, I always lose that turn.
I started testing out a RU build of this deck and it's been doing fairly well. I was looking for some advice on optimizing it.
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Pestermite
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-gang Commander
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 AEther Vial
4 Standstill
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
6 Mountain
1 Island
3 Wasteland
2 Mutavault
The deck splashes blue primarily for Standstill, but also features Kiki-jiki/Pestermite combo. Blue also helps post-board by giving Spell Pierce for combo matches and bounce spells to deal with general hate like Engineered Plague.
@ Gekoratel: Ah, your sideboarding makes more sense now. I agree with it pretty much then, I'll get to zoo below. However, I still disagree with boarding in the 1 krosan grip against goblins, you will desperately need that 2G to keep up with your opponent, especially on the draw, and it doesn't really help the overall big picture gameplan in the matchup. Unless they bring in jittes, but that's doubtful.
@ Zoo: I highly recommend NOT boarding out both lackey and warchief in the matchup. Especially lackey, anytime you can force the zoo player to play defense, you have a much better chance of winning. It will buy you turns just like MWM, and is a lightning rod (lol!!!) for removal, which is great for a 1cc critter. Warchief allows for busted plays and I've never boarded out a single one since I started playing. Warchief + Ringleader and Vial + Wasteland make the deck, in my opinion. Boarding out any of these is a really bad idea (except vial sometimes vs combo/dredge).
You really need warchief so that you can catch up to your zoo opponent on the battleground. Otherwise you are too slow.
So that leaves us with: what to board out? For one, you can go down to 1 siege-gang commander. He's good, but we need space, and 5cc can be a lot to ask for. My other target, much less popular for boarding out? Warren weirding. Yes, warren weirding. The fact is, you really don't need 1-3 gempalm, 1-3 stingscourger, 3-4 perish, and 1-4 weirding (and possibly 2-4 pyrokinesis!?!). That's too much removal that will clog up your hand. Postboard I aim for 2-3 gempalm, 2-3 stingscourger, and 3-4 sb removal (either perish or pyrokinesis).
I explained a few pages back why I think boarding out warren weirding in this matchup is correct. I don't remember my exact logic, but basically, weirding doesn't help your board position that much and although it kills a creature, it time walks you. I might try to find it later but for now I'm going to keep it concise.
Vial is by far the best card in this matchup (as usual...), and in my opinion stingscourger comes second. MWM is a close third. Perish/Pyrokinesis fall behind all three of these, despite their grandiose effects.
Unfortunately zoo players don't run 19 lands anymore. Hell, some ran 18, those crazies. Waste + Vial is an easy to win fast before they can recuperate. Take advantage of this strategy especially if you run 3+ ports, but be wary that lucky draws can screw you.
I second the goblin pyromancer idea. If you only have 1 space in your sideboard, he's a good catch-all board in when you have dead cards (ex. vs burn or landstill), and the opponent rarely accounts for his presence (usually they can't afford to play that cautiously).
If you are very worried about zoo, warren instigator should not be in your 75. Chieftain doesn't really help much either, as you can't usually afford to risk all your guys when zoo has R or W open in the combat phase.
I wrote this about 6 months ago, when I was trying to write the primer that the admin decided not to post. It is a little outdated, but it contains some of my thoughts:
" I'll be honest, I love this matchup because zoo players think it is a bye for some reason. The key to this matchup is aether vial. Get a vial and all the sudden the matchup becomes a lot more favorable, because it allows you to waste+port them while still building up an army. Goblins has inevitability in this matchup for sure. This makes cards like stingscourger great, because it will return a goyf and block a nacatl or something, saving you 1.5 or so turns of damage. Don't chump block until you get to less than 10 life or so, because you need to build up your army, and many zoo players are rightfully afraid of sudden hasty goblins doing stuff with piledrivers. This makes some zoo players play their deck like it is rock or something, pinging away at the goblins player with their exalted nacatl. What they don't realize is that at a certain point goblins has no choice to block so they should just try to make it a damage race like most of their other matchups. You can prey on this inexperience often, as many zoo players have been told and trained to "bring in your 2-3 clasms and laugh" when there is much more to the matchup than that. Pridemage is a bastard, but you can hopefully shut off one of those two colors if you have the vial in play that you are worried about getting nuked by pridemage. If Zoo keeps a land light hand and doesn't draw too many lands they are certainly not in a good position. The more lands Zoo plays the worse the matchup becomes for you. Likewise, the more colors they play, obviously the better it is. It is very easy to force removal against them, as they have a lot and like the idea of killing both a blocker and a utility threat, which I don't blame them for. Also, don't be stupid with gempalm. You need to be at least 1 goblins ahead of what you need, sometimes 2 depending on what is on the field. If they bolt in response and their nacatl only takes 2 damage, well, then you just got owned badly. You usually want to save your pyrokinesis for either an early lackey connection when the opponent taps out for a guy to block lackey and you don't have stingscourger, a game winning position, or after a clasm effect to clear the board. Don't let lavamancer live too long, he is a god, and jitte is good but can still be played around. Basically, the skill of the zoo player in his understanding of the matchup will greatly determine your chances."
I still think zoo is near unwinnable without them keeping a meh hand, and me exploding all over their face with a lucky hand. Luck isn't something I want to rely on, especially when we are talking a deck that is being speculated at 20-25% of the field in the GP.
Maybe I'm a bad goblin pilot, its very possible as I'm still learning the game. But these testings were done with my 2 infinetly more skilled friends watching/running zoo/giving me advice on how to play against zoo as I prepped for the GP. I decided to switch decks at last minute so I can stand a better chance at a zoo heavy tournement with my somewhat lacking skill.
Also goblins doesn't do too hot in my meta so I think this switch might be semi-long term.
A typical wedensday night at our local place includes alot of Enchantress and Landstill.
We have so many enchantresses running around that we are going to do enchantress night, and build like 9 and go to someone elses legacy night
@FoulQ, I'd like to explore your logic on these two points.
First, why do you say that WW timewalks you? To me, timewalking yourself implies that they gained position whereas you kept the same position you had before the turn started. You spent 2 mana to kill a creature, they spent 1-3 mana on that creature. You may have played a land, they may have played a land. Getting further in land drops only advances you more than it advances them. Granted, on T2, it may not be as tempo as SS against their goyf + block their nacatl, but still, you'd have to deal with both creatures again the next turn.
At least with WW, one creature is gone, and if you can deal/chump the other, that's more room for you to pressure back or move into the late game. I'm not saying I think SS is bad, but I'm not sure how WW is bad either. It's the only reliable removal you can tutor/reveal for, since gempalm is sometimes useless. SS may gain 1.5 turns of tempo, but you're still going to be facing down some 3/3 or bigger in a turn again anyway if you don't do something about it.
As a thought experiment, say you're facing a solitary goyf or knight on turn 4 or 5, after you hit their initial deploys with a Perish. What would you rather have, SS or WW? I boarded out my drivers for the Perishes. Are you saying you'd rather keep the drivers and take out WW?
Also, I'm trying to understand why SS is better than MWM. SS buys you 1 turn against the creature you bounced and 1 turn against the creature you blocked. Possibly 2 turns if you bounced at EOT. So 3 turns of effective stall. MWM blocks 3 creatures, so again, 3 turns of effective stall. However, MWM enables gempalm better, which is already something you are hard pressed to do against Zoo. On the other hand, SS forces them to replay the creature. I guess what you're saying is that making them spend the mana again is more useful than possibly enabling gempalm?
Like I said, I don't necessary disagree (I haven't played the deck long enough to be that pretentious :), I'm just curious how you'd analyze my logic.
Just curious, what did you decide to play?
A zoo build a friends been working on tooled to win the mirror. Playtesting it I went 6-1 against the mirror netdecked zoo.
I love goblins and I really want it to work, and like I said theres a good possibility its me personally as a sub-par player and theres no way I'm breaking this deck up, but its getting sidelined for now as I try other areas.
If I had the time and resources to build Landstill I would love to play that for the GP, but 4 days isn't enough to learn a deck that complex =p
Okay, time walk was bad word choice.
It's not that warren weirding is bad in the matchup. It's still pretty good. Problem is, you only have so many choices to board out: you have to keep the goblin engine boarded in (lackey, warchief, etc). And compared to the other options (such as MWM) it isn't as good. And yes piledriver is something you can board out (though I usually like to always have 1 in my deck). -3 driver, -1 sgc is only 4 slots and should probably NOT be enough if you have a proper sb (since you should probably have 5+ spots for zoo). Then I say move to warren weirding for boarding out.
The actual creatures you can deal with once you have established the goblin engine. A 3/3 nacatl isn't that big of a deal once you have the typicaql steady stream going that involves some combo of warchief, matron, ringleader, and hopefully vials.
Yes I do value SS more than WW in the matchup. Much more. In the scenario you listed, obviously WW is better. But if you got them down to a solitary creature on turn 4/5 you will probably win anyway, if you focus on starting the goblin stream. And SS in this situation is great too, though not gamebreaking like WW, but SS is great the entire game. I'll take that consistency over WW in the matchup, which can be sort of win-more against zoo.
You have my logic with SS spot on. They have to replay the creature and it has malaria its first turn. That's hot. Especially a 2cc or 3cc guy, this is huge. You blank them for a turn, and can chump/block their second attacker. You gain another turn with summoning sickness. You should now have 4 lands. Now the game really begins, and you are only facing down two threats. But honestly, saying which is better MWM/SS doesn't really matter, because you'll always want them in the matchup and you'll never board them out.
I am also wondering about the mirror-tech zoo version, how the matchup changes. Also, enchantress/landstill, are not fun. Goblins is not as good without new horizons, reanimator, merfs, to prey on. Mystical tutor banning made us worse, in my opinion.
If you have to face zoo 3+ times in your meta you should definitely give up on goblins. 2+ times and probably as well. The deck really isn't that great anymore. I just play it because it's all I'm good at, and I'm too lazy to learn other decks. Plus, other legacy decks are kinda lame in my opinion.
I will fully agree with that statement except for 3 specific decks.
Rec Survival is a blast if you get your engine up and running.
Landstill, granted I'm still new to the deck but the 'epic' feel of a game where you get beat down to 3 then finally get a moat off, cunning wish for pulse of the fields, then hold off till you draw a kill condition.
Zoo is a blast to play as another fast aggro deck.
I know exactly what you mean. I was always playing Goblins,. In my "legacy history" there were only 3 toruneys when I didnt run Goblins.
I agree with you that Goblin isnt that great anymore, but I love to see my opponents disgusted face when I start Mountain, Lackey, Go. Nearly everyone tells me that Goblins are kinda dead, and not competitive - maybe cause I'm the only one playing this deck at our local tourney (with like 70 players every month).
As you said: " I just play it because it's all I'm good at, and I'm too lazy to learn other decks. Plus, other legacy decks are kinda lame in my opinion."
Mirror-tech zoo seems worse to me. They have more remova (wtffxor lightning helix)l and sylvan library to draw more burn come late-game. Or elspeth to make things fly. They can't bring you down to 0 as fast, but set-up for a more solid mid-game kill with more removal/burn.
Also has anyone seen the latest iteration of too much information? While Zoo boasts a 60/40 win% overall, if you account for players with .500+ records, the match-up becomes literally a coinflip.
@ Zoo
Yeah, the matchup is not as bad it seems. I'm running monoR and I still think it is only slightly favourable for them.
Random question: If I cast Lightning Crafter with Goblin Warchief out, I can put the CITB trigger on the stack, use Crafter's ability (since it has haste), then resolve the trigger and sacrifice the Crafter?
Yes. Was there a particular reason you thought you couldn't?
Rules Advisor
I am still positive in my personal matchups vs Zoo over the tournaments I've played this year (playing both MonoR and BR versions). Granted some of the opponents weren't great players (nor am I btw), but I've always though the matchup is fairly even. The strategy is always the same; survive (Mogg War Marshal is very good here) until you can take out some of their creatures with Wasteland->Pyro or Perish then cast Ringleader and overrun them. Vial is very, very important in this match. I never side out Lackeys - the mere threat of an unblocked Lackey can force them to hold back some of their creatures. If you manage to land an early Siege-Gang then that is nearly always gg. A Boartusk Liege out of the board is also tough for them, they have to spend two burn spells to get rid of it.
Needs more goyfs.
How does your mono-red anti-zoo list look like?
Also, what kind of zoo decks are you battling? Is the the one with Steppe Lynx (and shitloads of burn) or the one with Knight of the Reliquary (and sometimes Elspeth)?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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