nice result hollywood. im happy you have made it work. i never could. my only difference was no main deck deathmarks when i started. zoo and other midrange were manageable even with no deathmarks. it was goblins and then these new/old jace powered countertop/landstill decks that made me give up. resolved jace and constant board sweepers is just a nightmare with lowish threat density and no burn.
Yeah, Countertop REALLY sux
A resolved Counterbalance almost Certainly is gg for this Deck. Even if u board in...lets say...a Disk.
He will just force it away with a grin while handling the rest with the balance (o rly)
VS Countertop its almost a coinflip (at least it feels so for me) - either u have that turn 1 Inquisition/Duress/Thoughseize(Whichever u play) or Cabal Therapy AND he happens to have that Counterbalance on his hand, or you loose to him.
Board in Pithing Needle, hope to draw em and put it on saying Divining Top -.- Then watch him laughing, cause he boarded in the Krosan Grip anyway (btw same applies for the disk)
In this Matchup Bitterblossom felt like the most important.... if u can make it Resolve ur in a really good position. Not that it would be easy then, but its "do-able"
In conclusion - i just hate Countertop as a Matchup for the gate -.-
But hey..
You frigging OWN Reanimator (at least g2)
You frigging OWN NO-Based Decks
You frigging OWN Show and Tell piles
You frigging OWN NewHorizons
:)
Let me first say thank you to everyone.
Addressing several key points previously brought up:
@Osmin: You can't be serious, right? In the combo match, what makes you think you have the time to go to turn two (on the draw, no less), drop a Dark Confidant, wait an additional turn, and then hit one of the only two supplementary win conditions in your deck? Not very good.
Against Zoo, Dark Confidant found itself on the way out a few times and I played Spinning Darkness in its stead. I kept them in the Top Four match because he was running more burn and straight-forward damage than typical Zoo decks run. I needed to be able to have a body on board by turn two, and even if it dies, it's one more card in my graveyard to feed Spinning Darkness with. I just have to take my chances with that. It couldn't be any worse than flipping Tombstalker for eight damage. And it was absolutely fantastic when I needed it.
I'm sorry I do not remember every single round's boarding strategy. Very few (if any) of my rounds lasted more than a half hour.
@Mujadaddy: I believe that Wasteland is strong enough (and important enough) in any deck capable of supporting it to run a full set of four. It was very important in most of my critical matches where my opponents' mana foundation seemed fragile. It is especially important in the Bant match, as their mana production is very fragile and Wasteland is just devastating.
I never really ran into any problems kicking a Gatekeeper because of Wasteland. Obviously it could be seen as a problem, but I never ran into it at the tournament. I am considering dropping them out, but the effect really is just too good to pass up for right now. Just watch the second game of my Top Eight match (here); I ended up crippling him early and keeping him out of the game long enough to beat him down with a Persecutor.
CounterTop variants are somewhat troublesome, but remember: We run a good amount of discard, so we can knock it out early (or beat it blind if we have to). Additionally, the deck plays Vampire Nighthawk and Faerie Macabre at three cost, and Persecutor at a modest four to boot. It never really has been a problem in the past and I don't foresee it being a problem in the future.
Relic of Progenitus never saw any play and will almost certainly find its way out of the sideboard. It is slower than Macabre (which was very effective) and is a wasted play in my mind. We can basically write them off.
@Rico Suave: The advantages of this deck over other mid-range black decks aren't overly noticeable, but they are there. This deck runs (in my opinion) more efficient removal elements by using sacrificial removal instead of targeted removal. This allows you to take out cards like Progenitus and Emrakul, and is cheap enough to cast without walking into Daze. The important thing to notice in this deck is that many of the cards generate card advantage and strengthen your top-deck instead of relying on searching with mana-intensive library manipulation. I'll be flat-out honest here: I never ran into a situation where I didn't feel confident in my draws and rarely, if ever, went down to zero cards in my hand at any time during that event.
Everything sets everything else up for the rest of the game and it flows very smoothly.
@JayWhyte1085: Bitterblossom was actually really important in a lot of my matches where I didn't think it would be. It allowed me to generate an assortment of creatures against combo (while I slowed it down) to whittle them down enough for a setup with Jitte or Persecutor assault. It was the card that actually saw the most play on Saturday and I am still very much sold on its individual strength in generating card-advantage in a short period of time. It was very powerful and draws a counter more often than not.
I hope this helps some.
Heh. I suppose I was a little jumpy with respect to Wasteland b/c the first match, without a 3rd, was additionally against a mono-black Hexmage deck (he held back a Depths b/c of the Wasteland on the board, but I was holding the Gatekeeper plus Innocent Bloods anyway, then I topdecked a Hymn to take that land.)
My actual question is more along the lines of, excuse the run-on sentence, even with the low curve, your Gate is running 16 black mana sources, and 4 land-destruction spells that take up a turn's land-drop. I'm accustomed to running 19 or 20 swamps, and that's WITH Dark Rituals; do you think that your luck is going to run out eventually? (I'm probably going to reintroduce the Wastelands, as I know they're good, but with 18 swamps. I suppose you already addressed this upthread, and I'll go back and look.)
Re:Relic -- I thought so. Macabres, presumably, will replace them. Ever consider Leyline, or is snaking Ichorid/Bridges/Loam/Sword-of-the-Meek two at a time enough?
Re:Sideboarding & not remembering it -- I've found in my limited testing that you almost don't NEED to sideboard. Bitterblossom is 'rather good' main, but can you explain when you'd actually want four in there?
Another question, this time regarding Spinning Darkness: since it doesn't hit black creatures, have you ever considered Doom Blade, Edict or even Smother? Or is the free-ness the absolute most important consideration? (I'm the type of guy who likes Infest and even Dry Spell when the going gets rough)
Anyhow, congrats again on your continued success, ya
Edit: This also made me laugh:
Awesome deck I must say.
I had a monoblack wich I kind of changed some parts to fit the main idea of yours and still work on his old purposes. It turned out a real machine as it could be a threat to combo and aggro decks and, the best part, without having to side much.
I ran the deck with:
Shriekmaw
Diabolic edict
Sword of light and shadow
Phyrexian Arena
It moved to a more control and more reliable deck, as Dark Confident is more risky as I just ran 4 more 5cc than you on the deck. It's too risky to have DC and Bitterblossom at the same time and expect you can deal with it everytime. This is why your sideboard needs so much cards that heals.
Sword of Light and Shadow allow you to recycle removals if things get dirty later, and helps against your enchantment clock
In general it looks rly similar, but the most important thing that changed the whole thing: Extirpate on side. It's really the best option against MANY things, specially when you have mass discard potencial.
Anyway, congratz, this has great chances to reach the stablished decks status. I'm sure going to work more on this deck and try improving it.
There are plenty of different cards you could try, as the deck itself is really just a mid-range, mono-black control deck. There are plenty of options that warrant consideration. My (main) build, however, is very tight and I enjoy the way it runs as it is.
The sideboard needs a major overhaul, however. Relic of Progenitus and Nevinyrral's Disk may get the axe; I'm not sure yet. They have been rather ineffective when their use was called upon and I just found Faerie Macabre to be a more effective solution against decks that use the graveyard for more intentional purposes. Disk is just slow, but is still generally effective when it goes online.
Another thing I am highly considering is upping the number of Soul Spikes to four, as that seems to be a highly underrated weapon against Storm-based decks utilizing Ad Nauseum. You would need to open one to start the game to make it most effective on the draw, and this is where you could potentially force your opponent to stop early and go for less cards. In this instance, you have effectively forced them to play around Soul Spike, which is perfect because it makes them play a little less aggressively on the play and gives you another out and more time to win the game.
It's also not necessarily a dead card against Zoo and faster, more aggressive decks, as it deals damage and gains you life.
At worst, it also gives you four life to keep the game going and stun them at a Storm count of ten or eleven. Most people feel as though Storm combo is this deck's worst match, and it can be. With the loss of Mystical Tutor, the increase of discard in Hymn to Tourach, and Soul Spike in the sideboard being an effective, alternate win condition (as shown this past weekend and in testing), The Gate has drastically increased its chances overall in this particular match; I have no doubt about it.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 07-28-2010 at 12:59 PM.
Update: The Gate is now listed as Established. Great work, everyone!
Great work, you, mostly.Originally Posted by Hollywood
18 Swamps, 4 Wasteland has felt just about right.
Right now, my SB looks like this:
3 Faerie Macabre
//.... one main
1 Deathmark
//.... three main
4 Soul Spike
4 Unmask
3 Dystopia
Soul Spike does all the tricks you mention, and is a hell of a lot better finisher than Kaervek's Spite or something similar. I felt that Unmask is a great option to beef up the matchups against "silver bullet" decks (g2, t1, "Unmask, shuffle Emrakul, plz, tap swamp, cabal therapy naming those two Show & Tells I saw," etc.) where you absolutely, positively have to disrupt their hand.
What matchups would you side into all 4 Bitterblossoms? I've been racking my brain on that.
@Hollywood,
I enjoyed your report very much; epic and fascinating! Congrats on placing 3rd and pushing the deck into the established section. You really seem to know your stuff.
Could you perhaps add to the primer a FAQ section?
Why isn't card X, Y or Z played? (Tombstalker / Grafted Wargear / Dark Ritual in particular)
Why isn't there are splash?
It would be good for those coming into the thread late, or have a passing interest who don't want to ask the same questions that have already been addressed but also don't want to read the whole thread.
As of the moment, I really don't know if a "FAQ" section is necessary; a lot of folks will probably be sifting back through the first few pages. Plus, given the list really hasn't changed all that much and really just shuffles quantitative values around with different cards, I'm really just inclined to keep it the way it is for now. I'm going to update the opening post with the most current, up-to-date list.
I really like Spinning Darkness. The reason it is played is really not just that it deals damage to non-black creatures (really based against Zoo), it gains you life. Once you start generating an overwhelming board advantage, you can remove the previously used cards for something quite efficient. I love that card so much in the sideboard; it really is the perfect fit.
As of the moment, I'm looking at a sideboard of something similar to this:
//Sideboard
[4x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Dystopia
[3x] Soul Spike
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Sword of Light and Shadow
[1x] Deathmark
I think this sideboard is a little better rounded out. I have some more life-gain in the form of Sword of Light and Shadow, which not only pumps each creature in the deck, but can almost single-handedly shut down most decks running significant sources of burn and the like.
I'm sure a lot of people may be wondering the side-in, side-out strategy with Dark Confidant as it pertains to the higher cost of spells such as Soul Spike and Spinning Darkness. I'm not too worried about this, based simply on what match-ups those cards will come in for anyways. Soul Spike is really designed as a supplementary win condition against Storm-based combo (with Ad Nauseam), and Spinning Darkness is a card generally sided in against Zoo and faster aggro threats. Dark Confidant generally doesn't live more than three turns (at most), and if he does, I am prepared to take my chances in the second or third game in flipping either of those cards.
Soul Spike is generally a mulligan-aggressive card to stun the combo player early and really nothing more. On the draw, it is hard sometimes to get around the fact that player can go off on the first or second turn if you are not prepared to stop them (which would be more difficult anyways actually being on the draw). It also serves dual purpose in helping against burn and faster aggro as well. Granted, Soul Spike is a card predicated on card disadvantage, but its surprise element and higher life-gain factor make it all the more appealing as it can be cast for free.
I really like it in here.
Bitterblossom is a card I am squarely looking at in the main build. It has been the card I've been most concerned about since first deciding to run it, but the more and more I play it, the more and more I actually appreciate its effectiveness. It is essentially a "must-counter" card, otherwise it just gets out of hand very quickly. With the addition of Sword of Light and Shadow in the sideboard, those Faerie tokens just got a hell of a lot better. Umezawa's Jitte is obviously important, but the Sword is quite effective and compliments the more difficult match-ups quite nicely by: Pumping my creatures, protecting them, recurring them, and gaining me life. Had I played those in my sideboard at Jupiter, I can almost guarantee I would have won that "Top Four" match, hands down. The games really only came down to a few life points for each of us, and that kind of swing the Sword provides is really too good to pass up.
The Sword also provides card advantage by recurring creatures and bringing them back to your hand, which is the whole basis for which this deck exists in the first place.
How's your Folk MU? I finally managed to get this sleeved together, and lost 0-2 to folk. Although, I must admit, I made a huge play error in the second game.
Also, how does your MD look? Is it the one you played at Jupiter, or the one you have posted further up? Or is it different altogether?
The current list I play has been listed on the opening post in the thread. I am also in the process of updating that entire post for reference purposes.
Merfolk is a match that you really shouldn't have too much trouble with, depending on how you play the match. If you made a critical play error game two, that obviously cost you severely. It's an aggressive deck that maintains control elements and can sustain the mid-game even through your removal. It's a relatively even match depending on who's on the play game one. This way, you can hit Vial early and get a leg up on resources.
Do you board anything for the MU?
Why did you play Relic over Crypt and just 2?
I saw that deathmark was gold for you and its probably very strtong in the current meta, but it doesn`t stop the scariest turn one play imo " Lakey".
I have the feelings, that we have too many dead cards vs a lot of MU. Counter Thopter and Combo blaning 10-11 of our spells.
What do you think about a Stronghold and a Urborg? I know it was discussed before and it could come into the way of black mana...
No, but Innocent Blood does. And Relic was a last minute addition. I stated already they were being cut.
I have no idea what you just wrote, but even cards like Faerie Macabre can stop that combo right in its tracks (if that's what you're referring to). This deck doesn't have a lot of dead cards versus a lot of match-ups, so I have no idea what cards you are referring to. Please elaborate.I have the feelings, that we have too many dead cards vs a lot of MU. Counter Thopter and Combo blaning 10-11 of our spells.
That would be completely unnecessary and would open you up to Waste and or Moon effects. The deck is a single color. If you can't use the already sixteen (plus) Swamps in the deck to cast pretty much whatever you play, then I have no idea what to tell you. Recursion can come in the form of Sword, and that is a much more effective weapon by gaining you life and protecting your creatures from spot-removal. It pumps every creature in the deck and can provide a massive swing to your advantage.What do you think about a Stronghold and a Urborg? I know it was discussed before and it could come into the way of black mana...
Vs. Control all your Removal is dead. Deathmark is dead vs Goblin and Merfolk. Just for example.
You are wrong. All of my removal is not dead versus Control; Innocent Blood knocks off a Confidant taking too much life away from your total and allows me to knock-off Abyssal Persecutor to win the game. The same can also be said with Gatekeeper of Malakir. Most control-based decks run green and or white creatures as their primary win conditions, especially in decks like Bant and "CounterTop" variants.
And I am fine with those cards being dead against Merfolk and Goblins; I still maintain eight other sacrificial removal effects. That, however, doesn't excuse the deck from being prepared for the rest of the format, which was obviously the case this past weekend, in which the most active card ended up being Deathmark.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 07-29-2010 at 10:56 AM.
About the Blossom:
Often the people say the blossom is not good. Two weeks ago, I played the deck here in germany and one of the most useful cards were my 3 maindeck bitetrblossoms, they are just amazing. Ok with equipment they are more effective, but sometimes a single bitterblossom without equipment could be enough to win.
Bitterblossom is a stationary win condition that produces on its own with very little interaction. It has been very effective in the past and I have only recently begun to realize how powerful and instrumental their inclusion has been.
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