A mono red anti zoo goblins list is probably one featuring several copies of Stingscourger, Mogg War Marshall, eventually Mogg Fanatic (against Lynx, to improve Gempalm Incinerator) and some kind of removal in the board. To make room for those cards it probably has less than 4 Piledrivers and in order to ensure the lategame is yours it should have 23-24 lands alongside 3 Siege Gang Commanders.
It has been established that Goblin Lackey shouldn't be sidelined against Zoo. Would this philosophy apply to Warren Instigator? My current list runs 3x Stingscourger and 3x Gempalm Incinerator as its primary removal (since its mono-red). I currently do not run Mogg War Marshall. Should I remove Warren Instigator (or sideline them) for Mogg War Marshalls?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forumsOriginally Posted by Kyle
Depends if you're expecting to fight a lot of zoo or not. I was always a fan of Mogg War Marshall due to its synergy with Gempalm Incinerator, so that's just me. I run 3 maindeck Mogg War Marshals with 4 Gempalm Incinerators and 3 Stingscourger as removal.
Right now, I'm trying out 1 Siege Gang Commander and 1 Lightning Crafter instead of having just the 2 Siege Gangs. So far I've been liking the Lightning Crafter as my Incinerator #5 sorta.
I've been playing a ton of games with a RB list on MWS recently, and I felt like dropping two points I feel should be made or emphasized based on the current discussion:
Siege-gang commander is the best mana-sink in the deck. Run 3 MD. It's better MD than Wort, Boggart Auntie and Lightning Crafter. It is WAY more versatile and reliable than either Wort or Crafter. It's the best card of the three to drop via Lackey turns 2 or 3, since it attacks AND blocks AND burns, better than Wort or Crafter. Dropping a turn 2 Wort is unnecessary and dropping a turn 2 Crafter means championing Lackey, which is obviously bad. Yes, Crafter can be synergistic with Ringleader, but it's too situational to use, and you have to actually think about attacking with it to pump Piledriver. SGC is the best bomb in the deck, and 3 is just enough to ensure drawing him late game or in the opener with Lackey.
Wort, Boggart Auntie > Goblin Pyromancer. Someone said that Pyromancer is good against control, but I find that it's only just win-more and doesn't stop you from losing. Wort does stop you from losing, via recurring Ringleaders, SGCs, etc. That said, Wort is a great SB slot.
Philip Yam was 9-0 Day 1 in Grand Prix Columbus using a Rb Goblins list. Some weird choices, like 3 warchiefs and main sharpshooter, but it is getting there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekylBN29TQ0&
Steve Sadin talking about his Red/Green Goblins (3/1 Mogg War Marshal, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Skirk Prospector). Even though there are many things explained for noobs it is quite informative and the list looks pretty good.
What do you think about his sideboard? I personally don't like Mindbreak Traps - I've tested them in few tournaments and found out that Chalice of the Void or even Pyrostatic Pillar are better against storm decks, as Trap is usually taken out by duress/thoughtseize and can be easily blocked by silence/chant... And what about grave hate? I always preffered split between Relics and Crypts, 'cause when you have only one it means all your gravehate is dead after one needle hits the ground (and against dredge you may not have enough time to search for hooligan and play it turn 4). Furthermore, full activation of relic costs 2 mana, while crypt does the thing for free, which is important in aggro deck. One of undefeated d1 gob decks was running Leylines of the Void, does it really work? (I've never tested it)
If you mull to it you can stop Lands/Dredge/Reanimator before they can get anything going. If they have an answer it's damn hard to replay it later in the game. I think it used to be better, when Reanimator was still running wild. Now it's probably safer to run relics, as they don't have to be in your starting hand and can still F up a graveyard over the course of many turns or just one.
I thought so too, and I must say that those cards are the WORST ways to hate combo. With Pillar in Play, thay will simply loop Ill-Gotten gains.
Minbreak Trap will be Duressed since they are expecting Combo hate. Some lists run SIlence/Chant, those cards will deal with Mindbreak Trap too.
Plus, those cards aren't good in ANY other matchup.
My experience tells me, that they will keep "save" hands with Chant/Duress backup. You should have one more turn to do extra damage, maybe this will be enough.
If you want to run really good combo hate I'd play Chalice of the Void. We discussed this issue (which combo hate is best/worst) like 8 pages ago, maybe this makes sense to you.
My oppinion is not to run ANY combo hate at all, but to rely on your speed. We can kill on T3 too, especially when there are no creature in the way.
----------------------------
Different topic:
I'm going to participate in the German Legacy Championship this month. I dont know what decks will show up, so here is my list which is prepared for aggro and midrange MUs alot:
//Lands [22]
6 Fetch
6 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
//Creatures [27]
4 Lackey
4 Piley
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Warren Instigator
2 Mogg War Marshall
2 Siege-Gang Commander
//Removal [7]
3 Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Tunneler
//Spells [4]
4 Vials
//Sideboard [15]
4 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Nature's Claim
Pre-board it's mono R. I splashed B for Perish and G for Nature's Claim. I don't run any specific combo hate because I want to rely on my speed and my luck here. If any then I would bring in 4 REBs for 3 Gempalm and 1 Stingscourger. to stop their brainstorm/Lim-duls vault/maybe meditate (in DD lists).
Comments?
Nature's Claim is interesting; I would personally run Krosan Grip. The only thing I don't like the the goblin tunneler + instigator. The combo seems way too sketchy. You essentially are cutting removal for unblockable in the form of a creature.
My changes would be:
-2 goblin Tunneler
-3 Warren Instigator
+1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
+1 Mogg War Marshall
+1 Gempalm Incinerator
+1 Warren Weirding
+1 Goblin Chieftain
Wort, while not having the same effect as a Seige-Gang when it hits the table, is much better than the 3rd Seige-Gang in my opinion because it offers a lot more utility. MWM + Gempalm for more survivability + removal. I want at least 1 Weirding MD because if I play some NO deck, I want an answer to Progenitus game 1. Chieftain makes e.plague much less scary post board and offers some serious damage with the amount of token makers.
Should R/B Goblin build run Wastelands, Ports, or Both considering that we have to run at least 3-4 fetches?
R/B Goblins can, and should, run Wastes and Ports just fine.
R/B/G Utility Goblins (61)
Land (23)
2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
1x Swamp
1x Taiga
4x Wasteland
3x Wooded Foothills
Creature (31)
4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
3x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Goblin Tinkerer
4x Goblin Warchief
2x Mogg War Marshal
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Stingscourger
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sorcery (3)
3x Warren Weirding
Artifact (4)
4x AEther Vial
Sideboard (15)
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Reverent Silence
2x Vexing Shusher
I think I'll be playing this list at my next tournament. I've always liked the great big toolbox the Goblins rock, so I built this deck to take advantage of it. Tinkerer is my favorite artifact destruction card as he is the only goblin that can destroy Top in response to Top tapping to draw. Also, he can be used repeatedly. Sharpshooter is pretty awesome. So is Stingscourger. There's nothing better than dropping him to your opponent's Show and Tell (and this scenario has been coming up more and more frequently lately). Wort has always always always been a disappointment to me, except in games where it allows me to win. There are so many amazing cards to recur in this deck. Besides the obvious benefit of replaying creatures, Wort allows you to stack upkeep triggers as follows--- Wort's trigger on stack, Echo trigger of War Marshall/STINGSCOURGER on stack, don't pay the echo = creature goes to the graveyard, Wort's trigger resolves and you return War Marshal/STINGSCOURGER to your hand to be replayed. Voila.
I chose my sideboard based on the idea that every card we side in dilutes the potency of the deck's synergy. Therefor, our sideboard cards should be efficient as possible so that we side in as few as possible. Chalice of the Void is great against combo and decks with really low mana curves, and when combined with Vexing Shusher has a minimalized effect on the spells you play. Vexing Shusher, being a goblin, doesn't weaken the deck's synergies. Leyline of the Void is always a point of contention, but the fact is this card wrecks recursion decks when it enters play turn 0. Pyrokinesis is NOT as big a hoser as Perish, but it is clearly far more versatile. Plus, the deck mainboards Wierding, so you don't need to be concerned about needing a Perish to off Progenitus. Also, you're going to want to side out Wierding in mirrors and Mutavault matchups. Reverent Silence probably seems awful. Why splash green just for that card? Because Moats and Propogandas and Engineered Plagues and Enchantress Decks are running wild these days so eff it. Run a card that wipes em all out (and play it for free, then make it uncounterable with Shusher thanks to that extra mana you have open).
And yes, I'm only gonna run 3 Piledrivers. It's an amazing card, but you can still win games without him.
Whoops, I lied. Wort targets the card which I believe means i was wrong above. The card has to be in the graveyard at the beginning of the upkeep to be targeted by the upkeep trigger. if Wort read "At the beginning of your upkeep return A goblin card from your graveyard to your hand" then what I had proposed would be possible. It doesn't, so, it isn't. My bad.
Winner, 2010 Legacy Championship
Ryan Messick
Main Deck
60 cards
1 Arid Mesa
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Badlands
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
21 lands
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Instigator
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
32 creatures 4 Aether Vial
3 Warren Weirding
7 other spells
Sideboard
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Warren Weirding
15 sideboard cards
Weird choices with Barbarian Ring, only 3 Fetches, no Ports. Kikijiki and Wort. Mindbreak Trap saved his ass though, but there are better choices against Combo i guess.
Looks to me like a pretty average/standard list. A lot of lists that play Auntie's Hovel only play 4 fetches, so 3 isn't that abnormal.
Chieftains instead of MWM, and a 3rd high casting cost guy for the 22nd land. Those look like the main changes from source discussion.
Personally I'd go for 3 high casting cost guys (2 SGC, 1 Wort? perhaps), and 22 lands. 21 does not work for me.
Barbarian ring tech is well known but I think most people agree when they have tested it: not worth it.
And his sideboard is pretty streamlined.
I often feel like I'm pinned in a straightjacket when I'm tinkering with the deck because, let's face it, there just isn't any room to putz with this deck. Lackeys, Matrons, Ringleaders, Warchiefs, and Vials are automatic 4-ofs. Piledrivers and Incinerators are usually 4-ofs. There is also always always always at least one Siege-Gang Commander. That leaves about 10 non-land slots open, and the deciding how to fill them doesn't even change the way the deck plays. The card choices for the 10 spare slots always seem to be split into 3 categories: Creature removal (Wierdings or Stingscourger), Creature advantage (Siege-Gang or War Marshal, or Chieftan), or Tech (Wort, Kiki-Jiki, Tinkerer, Sharpshooter, Instigator). And the pain of it is, decks that swing to any extreme still manage to win tournaments. Just look through the top placing Goblins lists on SSG.
Anthony Avitollo plays for more removal.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=33473
Noah Swartz gets more tokens into play.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=33469
And Ryan Messick does well with a tech heavy deck (shown above).
And the Columbus GP showed 2 Goblin decks making day 2 undefeated, one R/B and one mono-red. Phillip Yam's decklist cuts "core" cards (Piledriver and Warchief) to make room for tech cards like Sharpshooter and Fanatic and to have a higher percentage of token generating War Marshals and Siege Gangs. Chris Nighbor's deck, on the other hand, is as straightforward a classic Goblin decklist as you could ever hope to see.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...e/gpcol10/day2
To me, the lack of diversity between these decklists says that the core of the deck is what wins matches, and is robust enough to win tournaments. Tuning a Goblin deck won't do anything for your final results. Those 10 open slots don't really matter at this point. There is collective knowledge within the Magic community that knows what the deck is and how it wins and how to play against it. A Goblin deck can only be tuned to the meta, in my opinion. Then it's up to smart play and, as always, a little luck.
The sideboard continues to be the biggest mystery for me as our much-loved deck doesn't want to get diluted with non-Goblin cards. If they made a Cursecatcher-goblin equivalent it would be an automatic sideboard 4-of. If there was a Goblin Faerie Macabre it wouldn't even be questioned. But there's not. And due to the power of the deck already, probably never will be.
So it goes.
I came to this conclusion myself yesterday, nice post.
I ended up taking 3rd at a semi small tourney, 32 people, and walk away with 2 tundras for my troubles. I played a fairly standard BR list
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothills
2 badlands
5 mountains
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 vial
4 lackey
4 piledriver
4 matron
4 warchief
4 ringleader
3 gempalm incinerator
2 Mogg war marshall
2 stingscourger
2 sgc
1 kiki jiki
2 warren weirding
1 goblin chieftain
Sb
4 pyrokinesis
2 perish
3 pyrostatic pillar
1 warren weirding
1 goblin tinkerer
1 goblin sharpshooter
3 price of progress (i heard there were 3-4 ppl playing 42lands last time)
My matchups were
Rd1 bgw good stuff homebrew loss 1-2
Rd2 mono red goblins win 2-1
Rd3 zoo win 2-1
Rd4 mono green stompy win 2-0
Rd5 ubg jacestill win 2-1
Top8
Zoo win 2-0
Top4
Mono red painter stone loss 1-2
It was 2am and I didn't board correctly and lose to turn 3 and turn 4 nut combo draws
Overall kiki was great for me and pyrokinesis was nuts
Last edited by tgDC$; 08-16-2010 at 02:16 AM. Reason: remembered the last sideboard card
Hi guys,
I was testing a Rwb Goblin build last weekend (never had that before). I went 3-4-0, had well...not the best MUs and want to conclude that Swords to Plowshares (I would even say W splash in general) isn't good for Gobs.
Here is my list, followed by a short report:
//Lands [22]
5 Mountain
4 Plateau
3 badlands
6 Fetches
4 Wastelands
//Core [27]
4 Lackey
4 Vial
4 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Chieftain
4 Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
//Techs & Removal [11] (I like this genreal division by jrw and markbris, it makes things easier)
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tunnler
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Warren Instigator
//Sideboard [15]
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Perish
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Disenchant
1 Serenity
1st Round: Mono Black Aggro 0-2 (with a foull package of 4 Nighthawks, 4 TOmbstalker and 3 Jitte MD!!)
2nd Round: DDEmrakul 2-1 (1-off-Stingscourger ftw!)
3rd Round: Zoo 2-0 (triple SGC saves the day!)
4th Round: 5c-Planeswalker-Control 1-2 (he had 9 Firespout in 3 games)
5th Round: GW Vengvine Survival 0-2 (Dueling Grounds got me)
6th Round: Moat Staxx 2-0 (he had 4 Moat/ 4 Humility/ 4 Elspeth/ 3 Tabernacle MD! and didnt draw a second W land in both games)
7th ROund: Dredge 0-2 (StoP had to remove a 10/10 Gravetroll)
I must admit, this build sucks. I basicly wanted to test W splash after a friend of mine conviced me to borrow him my Playset Taiga and Leyline of the Void (both of which I missed so much)
DOs and DONTs:
- Swords to Plowshares - maybe PtE is an option (which clashes with Wasteland though)
- Serenity - was way too slow against Jitte (twice!), got destroyed by Pridemage once
- Relic of Progenitus - once again I realized how bad this card is
- Red Elemental Blast - I really like this card, but I overestimated it's worth against Control decks (should be good against Merfolk though)
+ Goblin Tunnler - Great card! I run 2 in my Rbg build and I'm thinking adding a third copy (sneaks Lackey and Instigator through Factories)
+ MWM - Same as for Goblin Tunnler
+ 3 Siege-Gang Commander MD! - This card is just great. If pitched with Lackey in early turns it's totally game
Overall I think Goblins should rely on their speed, which means many tokens + a tunnled Piledriver for me.
------------------------
Different topic:
I have 2 questions I need your proffessional help with.
(1)
It seems that every Goblin deck is reporting good results against Merfolk - well evereyone but me. My statics tell me that this MU is absolutely 50/50. It seems that Coralhel Commander is the biggest problem for me. Plus, it seems that the outcome of the match depends on who goes first. If Merfolk starts with Vial, I'll usually lose the race. If I start with Lackey, they cannot keep up with it.
Do you guys have a certain strategy against Merfolk or is it all about sideboarding? I ran REB for a while, but they didnt seem to help much, cause I got nothing useful to kick (usually it's 2 Stingscourger, 2 Warren Instigator)
(2)
I'm going to participate in a big tournament with mostly unknown meta. I want to run a Rbg build and I like hear your oppion of the following cards:
- Mindbreak Trap (in theory it cant be good, but succesful Goblin builds/players run them in SB)
- Pyrokinesis (never tested it)
- Chalice of the Void (I like it, but it's not killer against any other deck than Belcher)
My SB looks like this:
4 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Earwig Squad
Although I'm not sure abou the 4 slots occupied by the Goblins.
Wheew, long post - hope you can help me with your experience and some explanations
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