[Deck] The Rock

[heroicraptor]

Humility shutting down Genesis

No, it doesn't. Humility only affects "creatures", not "creature cards".

109.2. If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes a card type or subtype, but doesn’t include the word “card,” “spell,” or “source,” it means a permanent of that card type or subtype on the battlefield.

[Hanni]

Huh... I checked the Humility thread, and I saw this:

Humility's "lose all abilities" is applied in Layer 5, as is Wonder's flying, so if Wonder is put into the graveyard after Humility comes into play, your creatures will have flying, if Humility comes into play after Wonder hits the grave, they won't.

Doesn't that mean that if I have Genesis in my yard first, and then Humility comes into play, that Genesis loses its ability?

[_erbs_]

If you like to run entombs why not run survival of the fittest over it, its a more better engine over entomb + genesis. With survival of the fittest it will offer you the iona lock and a good clock over entomb + genesis combo.

[heroicraptor]

Huh... I checked the Humility thread, and I saw this:



Doesn't that mean that if I have Genesis in my yard first, and then Humility comes into play, that Genesis loses its ability?

No, they're just using Wonder as a giver of an ability. It would be the same as if they said Levitation was there instead of Wonder.

[Hanni]

No, they're just using Wonder as a giver of an ability.

I read more of the (Humility) thread, and you're right.

If you like to run entombs why not run survival of the fittest over it, its a more better engine over entomb + genesis. With survival of the fittest it will offer you the iona lock and a good clock over entomb + genesis combo.

People have been playing Surival Rock for a long time. This is nothing new.

I like Entomb better for several reasons, though:

A) Entomb is faster.

Survival costs 1G, requires another G to pitch the first creature (assuming you have one), then another G to pitch Squee, then another G to pitch Genesis. If for arguments sake we assume that we have a creature in hand for the initial pitch, that costs 1GGGG vs B.

B) Survival gets removed by Pernicious Deed, which puts you in an akward position if you need to cast Deed with a Survival in play.

C) Entomb also gives access to Loam, which helps make consistent land drops. Loam also happens to grow Knight of the Reliquary, which adds another element of synergy to the deck.

D) Entomb/Genesis is also alot more resilient against hate in game 1, since enchantments are very easy to answer these days, and few people run maindeck graveyard hate.

Basically:
Most of the time, during the early game, you need to be casting removal, discard, and creatures. You don't have time to invest alot of mana up front to get an active Survival going. Entomb only costs 1 mana, can easily fit into the curve during the early game, and sets up Genesis. Once you have the mana to start using it, Genesis plays alot nicer with Pernicious Deed than Survival does.

[brianw712]

The list looks interesting, but I think the Pridemages are out of place. The whole Entomb/Genesis/Loam engine is pretty slow, but great when it starts working, so it looks like you want to go into the long game. Pridemages are pretty aggressive and don't do any good blocking, so I think they don't really fit into your deck. Maybe Kitchen Finks/Eternal Witness instead (Witness can make later Entombs into tutors, or make use of dredged cards). Also it might be beneficial to replace one Shriekmaw with a Fleshbag Marauder. Lastly, I never really liked Volrath's Stronghold in Rock decks, since I thought it was just too slow. Since you already run Genesis, it seems even less necessary. I would replace it with a utility land (Karakas, Bog, Maze, something like that).

[zalachan]

Maybe if you cut 1 Shriekmaw for 1 Fleshbag Marauder or 1 Worm Harvest/Gigapede? 'Pede would be nice with al the Exalted triggers..

[Hanni]

The list looks interesting, but I think the Pridemages are out of place. The whole Entomb/Genesis/Loam engine is pretty slow, but great when it starts working, so it looks like you want to go into the long game. Pridemages are pretty aggressive and don't do any good blocking, so I think they don't really fit into your deck. Maybe Kitchen Finks/Eternal Witness instead (Witness can make later Entombs into tutors, or make use of dredged cards). Also it might be beneficial to replace one Shriekmaw with a Fleshbag Marauder. Lastly, I never really liked Volrath's Stronghold in Rock decks, since I thought it was just too slow. Since you already run Genesis, it seems even less necessary. I would replace it with a utility land (Karakas, Bog, Maze, something like that).

The Genesis engine itself is somewhat slow, but the rest of the deck is not slow. Entomb only costs a single black mana to get Genesis in the yard; that's very little mana investment. That means I can set up my engine and still be aggressive in the early game. I don't need to use Genesis until the midgame, where it being slow is irrelevant, because I have the mana available to use it.

The Loam engine is only slow if you overuse it. If you just use it to make consistent land drops in the midgame, it's not slow.

Qasali Pridemage is a solid beater, all of the Exalted triggers are really good, and Qasali gives the deck additional answers to artifacts/enchantments, without running Vindicate. Qasali enables recurring artifact/enchantment removal with Genesis, which has been relevant for me several times.

Without counting the Genesis engine, running Qasali gives me 7 maindeck answers to artifacts/enchantment's (4 Deed 3 Qasali). Seems solid to me.

I haven't really felt a need for lifegain, so I'm not sure I'd want Finks, but Eternal Witness is good. I had him in my list originally, but cut him because he was a bit slow. He's still a really good card for the deck, and if I expected a slower metagame (more control, less Zoo), I'd consider fitting him in.

Replacing a Shriekmaw with a Fleshbag Marauder could be a good idea. I haven't ran into any issues yet where it mattered, but I could see it being good if I run into untargetable and/or black creatures. Fleshbag is also an answer to Progenitus, which I currently don't have any answers to.

The reason I added Stronghold is because Knight of the Reliquary can tutor for it, if for whatever reason I don't have Genesis in the yard (graveyard hate, never drew an Entomb, etc). However, I agree that Stronghold is unecessary in my deck. If I was going to cut it, I'd probably cut it for another Forest or something, instead of another utility land.

[sdematt]

Time for a bump.

I ended up playing at the monthly Legacy, and I did alright with a new build I was trying. Time for a matchp report!

The List:

3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Nantucko Shade
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
3 Sensei's D. Top
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of K.
4 StP

4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

Board:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Choke
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Leyline of the Void

Round 1: CounterTop Thopters
Game 1: This was a real grinder of a game. It went back and forth for 40 minutes. I was able to clear the board, but he got recurring EE online, and I wasn't able to draw my Vindicate for all his key permanents. I have to use the one Vindicate on the single Jace with 13 counters on it. I scoop so I can at least try to win game 2.

In: 4 Plague, 3 Choke
Out: 4 Swords, 1 Doran, 1 Nantucko, 1 Knight

Game 2: We don't finish, but I have Choke, E Plague, and 2 Tombstalker on the board with Moat online. This game was mine.

0-1

Round 2: Doomsday combo w/ Emrakul
Game 1: I tear his hand apart with 2 Hymns, and an Inquisition. He ends up just able to combo off. If I had one more life, he would have been done for.

In: Leyline of Sanctity, Choke, Leyline of the Void.

Game 2: I drop double Leyline of Sanctity, and thoughtseize away his Chain of Vapour. He gets Top, passes, I drop threats, he Doomsdays into Shelldock Isle. With no mana open, I vindicate the Isle, and swing in for the win.

Game 3: I drop Leyline of Sanctity, he Thoughtseizes me, so he targets himself, and I do the same afterwards. He gets beat down by Tarmogoyf.

1-1

Round 3: Belcher

Game 1: I have the god hand, but with no black mana. I mulligan it away, and keep. He goes off turn 1 and I die.

Game 2: He combos off turn 1 with Leyline of Sanctity in play. He starts to combo, and I say no biggy since I have Pulse in hand. He goes for 10 Goblins, and we swing bac and forth, with me putting him to 2, with myself at 6 and he has 1 goblin left. I need to draw E plague or Deed here, and I don't, it's one card away. He recombos with 9 storm and gets there. Sadface.

Round 4: I can't remember right now.

-Matt

[Shawon]

Game 3: I drop Leyline of Sanctity, he Thoughtseizes me, so he targets himself, and I do the same afterwards.

This is the detail I never saw anyone mention when Leyline of Sanctity was spoiled. Everyone was like "Oh, yet another nail in the coffin for combo!" or "Burn just gets no respect these days..." but this is why Leyline of Sanctity is A grade sideboard tech against combo. Stops Tendrils, and it stops their disruption from hitting your disruption.

[sdematt]

Exactly, they can't dismantle your pieces of hate.

I remember the final round now.

Round 4: Dredge

I've played the guy many times, and it's pretty even. He's playing Max McCall's build, so I know what to expect.

Game 1: Board state ends up with me having 5 untapped lands, Doran, Tarmogoyf, Deed and a Dark Confidant. He has Iona on White (I have swords in hand), an 18/18 Grave-troll (he has no mana open), 2 Ichorids, and 6 Zombie tokens. I have 17 health. He swings all in, as I have lethal on the board anyway. My plan was leave the Ichorid's unblocked, allowing them to create zombies. I block some of the zombies, and chump the Grave-troll with Confidant, leaving me to Deed away all his Zombie tokens and swing for lethal. The problem? After doing the math, there's no way I can block to win it. I have to chump the Grave-troll, as I can't deed for 5 and swing for the win. I need one more blocker. Sadface.

In: Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of the Void, Bojuka Bog
Out: Hymn to tourach, a Doran, Tombstalkers, etc.

Game 2: I start the game with a Leyline of the Void, which he bounces and then Cabal Therapy's away. I land Tarmogoyf and Nantucko Shade, along with a Sylvan Library. He can't breakthrough and has zero Dredgers, so he plays a Stinkweed Imp, which I Swords. I get there with heavy beats, and land another Leyline of the Void soonafter.

Game 3: I drop Leyline of the Void and he plays a city of Brass, followed by Nature's Claim. Fuck. I drop a land and pass. He Breakthrough's for 1, leaving one card in hand. I drop Sylvan library and pass. He breakthroughs again for one, revealing 4 Dredgers. I play Bojuka bog, and crush his hopes and dreams. I stick Doran/Tarmogoyf and go to town. He can't recover from losing that much tempo.

All in all, I feel I did very well. My losses were very close, and could have easily swung into my favour. I was hoping to play the Goblins player, as I know I could have won, but, the pairings were not in my favour.

-Matt

[Plague Sliver]

Nice list. Too bad you didn't get to play Goblins...at least you dream-crushed Dredge. Going to time in Round 1 sucks big time.

I don't know if this is crazy, but have you tried Enlightened Tutor? Even putting 2 in your maindeck could free up some SB slots. Since you're running W already, it might be worth a shot. Plus your list is pretty tight as it is. It just seemed worth a shot since you're running 2x Deed, 3x Top and maybe you don't have to go the full 4x Plague in the SB.

I don't know if it kills your tempo, though, since you usually want to be spending all your mana in the first 3 turns and don't want to be holding back to Tutor.

[SpikeyMikey]

Ever since they unbanned Entomb, I've been fascinated with using it in The Rock. I tried several previous builds that didn't work too well, and being preoccupied with other decks (and other things in general), I kinda put the idea on hold.

The reason why I like Entomb so much, is that it sets up an engine. The Rock is a midrange deck, and engines are what give this deck its midrange strength. Now, when most people think of engine, they probably immediately think of Life from the Loam. What most people probably don't think of, is Genesis.

That's right, Genesis.

Why Genesis? Well, Genesis is very unique. Unlike Volrath's Stronghold, Genesis actually creates card advantage. That's right, card advantage. Every upkeep, you get the option to pay 2G to return a creature to hand, and you still get your normal draw for the turn. This makes Genesis not just useful a means of recursion, it makes Genesis an engine.

What's so good about Genesis as an engine, though? Well, if you're playing with Pernicious Deed, you can sweep the board at will. It makes Pernicious Deed very asymmetrical. It also makes cards like Cabal Therapy alot stronger, too.

However, there's more to it than just wiping the board clean with Pernicious Deed, and then recurring your Tarmogoyf. Once you get Genesis in the yard, all future Entombs can tutor for any creature in the deck. That means recurring creature removal with Shriekmaw, and recurring artifact/enchantment removal with Qasali Pridemage.

Since the deck's already in G/B/w, we might as well toss in a Loam too. Since the deck is focused on abusing Genesis instead of Loam, Loam is there to simply ensure consistent land drops, and grow Knight of the Reliquary. With the ability to tutor for lands with Knight of the Reliquary (and possibly Entomb), a 2/1/1 split of Horizon Canopy, Wasteland, and Volrath's Stronghold doesn't sound like bad idea, either.

Here's the list I've started with:

G/B/w Entomb Rock

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed


I just want to point out, that this deck is very resilient to graveyard hate. Even if the opponent does shut down Genesis, Loam, or both, the deck still functions very well without those cards. Their are only a few cards dedicated towards the engine, and the rest of the deck is a very efficient Rock shell.

I'd also like to say that Cabal Therapy has some savage synergy in this deck.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I'm highly debating if Birds of Paradise should be Noble Hierarch, even though Hierarch doesn't produce black mana. The exalted triggers would be very useful...

EDIT 2: I'm actually debating the accelerant slot altogether. Opinions on this?

Off the top of my head I would say dump the acceleration. Having 3 mana on turn 2 isn't important for you and they work poorly with Deed and Loam. Go to 23 or 24 lands. That leaves with 1 or 2 slots to increase consistency or add utility. Maybe a Withered Wretch as a Genesis target to hedge against GY decks and control opposing KotRs and Goyfs. Maybe that's getting too danger of cool things, I don't know. But turn 2 KotR is fairly unimpressive (unlikely to be out of bolt range) and T2 Deed should almost bever be necessary ( unless you're playing Belcher and they T1 EtW).

[Hanni]

Off the top of my head I would say dump the acceleration. Having 3 mana on turn 2 isn't important for you and they work poorly with Deed and Loam. Go to 23 or 24 lands. That leaves with 1 or 2 slots to increase consistency or add utility. Maybe a Withered Wretch as a Genesis target to hedge against GY decks and control opposing KotRs and Goyfs. Maybe that's getting too danger of cool things, I don't know. But turn 2 KotR is fairly unimpressive (unlikely to be out of bolt range) and T2 Deed should almost bever be necessary ( unless you're playing Belcher and they T1 EtW).

The mana dorks can be really nice early game for a number of reasons, like Cabal Therapy, but I've been considering Mother of Runes too.

Also, Faerie Macabre seems much better than Withered Wretch with Genesis.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think you're right. Faerie recursion costs less mana than removing things with Wretch and it's not vulnerable to StP.

[danpo]

I went 4-1-2 at GP Columbus this past weekend playing this list:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Serra Avenger
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Aether Vial
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile

Round one I beat Lands 2-0. Game one took forever because he couldn't find Loam and I couldn't find green to destroy his Ensnaring Bridge, until I did and killed him. Game two he mulled to four and I found two Crypts and the Bog. Without active Loam he could only hold on so long with Zuran Orb and Glacial Chasm.

Round two I lost 0-2 to Bant Survival. An attempt to stunt his two-lander with Wasteland and a Thoughtseize on his Brainstorm failed when he found more land, then his Goyf was bigger than mine thanks to double-exalted. I didn't even realize Survival was in there until game two when he broke a topdeck war wide open with Iona/Retainers.
The guy - Ben, I think? Super nice - went on to 7-0 day one, and I asked him afterward since I'm trying to get better if he spotted any obvious mistakes on my part. He didn't think so. Encouraging. Not my fault, right?

Round three I beat Enchantress 2-0. Game one I Thoughtseized his Argothian and then charged through an Elephant Grass before he could set up Moat. Game two he mulled to six and shrugged "I'll try this" and led with Taiga. My opener had two Wastelands and I figured no Enchantress player would lead with Taiga if he could avoid it. So I turn-one Wasted. He then spent two or three turns discarding on no land while I made a Dark Confidant and the rest was history.

Round four I drew the third game in time against UW/r Landstill. Humility and Engineered Explosives were really unfun to deal with, but my list isn't exactly a picnic for them either. At least Patrick was an entertaining opponent. I don't think he got an active planeswalker all match, and I know they were there because I Extirpated him.

Round five I 2-0'd Goblins. He called Mother of Runes "tricky" several times. She kept him off Goblin Lackey and I think Gempalm Incinerator and both games we landlocked until I could blow the game open with Jitte and big/bigs. Also he boarded in Relic which was just not that bad for me.

Round six I drew the third game against Lands, but admittedly the guy should have won. I hate Lands. I hate Maze of Ith and Ensnaring Bridge and Manabond and especially Tabernacle. Lots of frustrating upkeep/timing issues here to avoid letting Academy Ruins restore freshly-killed Bridges, etc. Don't care to say much more.

So I was officially out and told my last opponent I just wanted to cuss and bitch and play sloppy Magic. He complied; it was nice. We cussed at each other a lot, it was fun. I 2-0'd his UW/g Countertop/Thopter deck. And then I dropped and started celebrating my birthday with alcohol and fronting.

Hooray.

To sum up:
Beat and went to time/lost with Lands, went to time with UW/r Landstill, lost to Bant Survival, beat Goblins, Enchantress, UW/g Countertop Thopter.

I wish I'd played Mindcensor in the board over Canonist but frankly I cold forgot until it was too late. Would have helped against Lands I think.

Okay now I'm late for a lunch date so that is all.

Cheers

---

PS - By now you've seen the GWB deck that won a grinder and the one that top 8'd the GP. I like both but don't have time to say more. What do YOU think?

[brianw712]

I think Brad Nelson was inspired by the list I posted on page 25 of this thread, tuned it, and then forgot to give me credit

[Neuad]

Round four I drew the third game in time against UW/r Landstill. Humility and Engineered Explosives were really unfun to deal with, but my list isn't exactly a picnic for them either. At least Patrick was an entertaining opponent. I don't think he got an active planeswalker all match, and I know they were there because I Extirpated him.

Long black hair, funny but extremely serious about it?

[danpo]

@ Neuad - Yeah. I'm pretty sure he's friends with Master Shake on here. And yeah, he doesn't seem to think winning and being a fun opponent are mutually exclusive, which meant a lot to me even if us drawing amounted to a loss.

@ Wilson's list -

I wonder about a few of the choices there. What would the rationale be behind one Deed main and two more in the board? I guess the assumption is that if game one goes long you'll have time to draw it and blow the game open?

Why only three Mox Diamonds? It seems like an awkward contrast with Deed.

And how often do you use Knight to find Horizon Canopy or Maze of Ith? The match-ups where you really desperately want such a card, Karakas seems just as good. Bouncing Emrakul or Iona is better than un-attacking them, and neither matters against Progenitus, plus Karakas taps for W.

Not saying any of these choices is wrong - the deck topped a GP, after all - but I'm curious what the pros/cons of these decisions are, and the logic behind them.

[Neuad]

@ Neuad - Yeah. I'm pretty sure he's friends with Master Shake on here. And yeah, he doesn't seem to think winning and being a fun opponent are mutually exclusive, which meant a lot to me even if us drawing amounted to a loss.

He is, I know exactly who you are talking about. He's a blast to hang around with. Him and Master Shake are both extremely funny people.