[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[Cant See]

Does anyone have an optimized or nearly optimized list for an unknown meta, IE Gencon? I sort of expect to see more combo/show and tell and merfolk due to the high showing at the gp, but i cant say anything for sure.

[sa17dk]

Am I just terrible or is the Merfolk matchup hard? I played a couple games today versus a Merfolk player and they just annihilated me when I didnt have nutty hands.

Between Cursecatchers removing my Bridges while countering my spells (and the Daze/FoW/Spell Pierce) and all the normal GY hate they bring in the matchup just seems miserable.

[kicks_422]

Plus the Wastelands for your lands.

It's difficult, but not unwinnable. You basically have to find the right timing to go all in. A lot of practice is needed.

[Joon]

The Merfolk Matchup can be difficult. Merfolk is one of the few decks who have slightly better chances against you in the first game, as they have some countermagic together with Cursecatcher, which is more "hate" than other decks have before boarding. In addition to that their clock is sometimes too fast (especially those 16 lord-lists). Personally, I'm 4-1 in rounds against merfolk in tournament play, but those matches were pretty much the most difficult with this deck so far (except Storm of course, but here you actually have a fighting chance).

As kicks_422 already pointed out, you need practice with the matchup. If you go to DDD and they topdeck crypt that's bad news. Same goes (sometimes) for topdeck Jitte or Cursecatcher. Often you got only a small window to go off before they can race you. It is difficult to explain, but in this Matchup you have to be more aggressive as in all other blue matchups.

I guess the obvious thing were already noticed, like keeping one land hands is hella risky, Grudge is one of your best Sideboard cards here (as it kills their hate, without caring if it's Crypt or Relic, can blow up Vials to slow them down or takes out Jitte). If you want sideboard cards especially for the Merfolk matchup I suggest playing a playset of firestorm.
I've played this deck now for a long time and more than the half of my won matches were won by a big Firestorm burning away my opponent's board. It is also useful as a discard outlet which can't be countered and allows the game to last longer, so you can find therapies and/or grudges. You can sit on your lands and maybe an Imp or Tribe till he fills the board, then you therapy for force and annihalte his board with firestorm.
If your opponent does not play much creatures in fear of Firestorm that's good for you - 1-2 merfolks can be stalled out by a Tribe or something till you find your stuff to go off "protected".

[sa17dk]

Thanks guys for the great responses. I have one last question. What would I board out for all the Firestorms and Grudges? I'm having trouble boarding out more than 4-5 cards and feeling confident with the engine.

I usually end up boarding out:

3 Careful Study (I only run 3 in my list)
1 Ichorid

For the 4 Grudges. If I were to also add in 2-3 Firestorms what should I take out? 1 of my 3 Thugs and...?

[lotriderm]

Thanks guys for the great responses. I have one last question. What would I board out for all the Firestorms and Grudges? I'm having trouble boarding out more than 4-5 cards and feeling confident with the engine.

I usually end up boarding out:

3 Careful Study (I only run 3 in my list)
1 Ichorid

For the 4 Grudges. If I were to also add in 2-3 Firestorms what should I take out? 1 of my 3 Thugs and...?

Sometimes if I remove an Ichorid, I also remove a Thug. Probably take out 1 DR also.

[Joon]

We need to see your list to tell you what to board out. Personally, I go with

-4 Studies
-2 Dread Return (no targets main, and I do not board targets in against merfolk)
-1 Thug (I play four of them)
-1 ??? (normally an Ichorid, but in the last time I use to play only three of them, so I board him only against Storm out. Normally I tend to board out a citadel as the last card to get to eight free slots but against a deck with wastelands that's a bad plan. Probably a Tribe or an Ichorid here)

+4 Ancient Grudge
+4 Firestorm

[sa17dk]

My list is:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Iona

3 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

I've been thinking of dropping the Ichorid count to 3. I've been playing with 4 and I've found that they flood my opening hands way too often and I never want to see them until at least 2 dredges. Even after that I only end up being able to consistently support 1-2 Ichorids every turn.

[No Trash Cougar]

I would board out
-3 studies (firestorm replaces it as discardoutlet)
-2 dread return (you don't really need it without targets)
-1 ichorid
-1 breakthrough
-1 iona (you don't really need her,because if you can play dread return a 15/15 troll gets the job also done)

and board in
+4 grude
+4 firestorm

[Anusien]

I would board out
-3 studies (firestorm replaces it as discardoutlet)
-2 dread return (you don't really need it without targets)
-1 ichorid
-1 breakthrough
-1 iona (you don't really need her,because if you can play dread return a 15/15 troll gets the job also done)

and board in
+4 grude
+4 firestorm

You realize you said "Take out Iona because Dread Returning a Troll is enough" and "Now that we've cut Iona, we don't need Dread Return", right?

I don't think I'd want to bring in 8 cards against Merfolk. If you're struggling though, I'd consider maindecking the 15th land.

[Nidd]

My list is:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Iona

3 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

I've been thinking of dropping the Ichorid count to 3. I've been playing with 4 and I've found that they flood my opening hands way too often and I never want to see them until at least 2 dredges. Even after that I only end up being able to consistently support 1-2 Ichorids every turn.

If your Ichorids run out of fodder, you can still let them munch each other. That's better than not having an Ichorid when you need one.

[Quark.Nova]

If your Ichorids run out of fodder, you can still let them munch each other. That's better than not having an Ichorid when you need one.

No you can' t. Ichorid says:
"At the beginning of your upkeep, if Ichorid is in your graveyard, you may exile a black creature card other than Ichorid from your graveyard. If you do, return Ichorid to the battlefield."

so unfortunatly you can't sac a Ichorid for another one.

[Saff]

No you can' t. Ichorid says:
"At the beginning of your upkeep, if Ichorid is in your graveyard, you may exile a black creature card other than Ichorid from your graveyard. If you do, return Ichorid to the battlefield."

so unfortunatly you can't sac a Ichorid for another one.

Yes, you can. It says that if you have only one Ichorid in your GY you can't remove him from the game and put him into play then.

[Quark.Nova]

OK, in this case i got this totally wrong, sorry.
Maybe i will up my Ichorid count to 4 again. I seldomly had the problem of unwanted Ichorid in the first turns, rather the opposite,
when i need they wont come.

[Kiljae8n]

Anyone have any ideas against a Hypergenesis deck? Other than Chalice of the Void what can I use? This deck is kinda common in my meta, I haven't played against it yet, but it looks equally as fast.

[Anusien]

Therapy, Chalice of the Void and quick Dread Returns.

[frogboy]

Kederekt Leviathan.

(or, you know, what Anusien said)

[bum_man]

I play in a meta full of Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins, BANT, Thresh, Some Aggro Loam and Strom Combo, and a resurgence of Survival archetypes (BANT, Vengevine Madness)

My Sideboard is currently:

4 Ancient Grudge - For artifacts, has to be 4, the 4th grudge is always a factor
3 Chain of Vapor - Catch all and Enchantments
2 Faerie Macabre - Supposed to be for Loam and Survival @_@
2 firestorm - Merfolk and Gobs
2 Ray of Revelation - Enchantment hate
1 Ancestor's Chosen - Zoo and Gobs
1 Terastodon - Permanent-based disruption for a lands, W stax, and Enchantress and Propaganda

My questions are:

1) In a meta like mine where Survival archetypes are starting show-up and put up excellent results against Dredge, I was thinking of a sideboard card to use against them. I thought of Pithing Needles and Leyline of the Void but they only get pridemaged away. Then I saw Faerie Macabre as potentially something I could use against both Survival and Loam. Question is, in your experience what sb cards (spells or permanents) are great against survival?

2) I feel that in a meta like mine, I need 3 Firestorms, but I don't have slots anymore in my sb plus I can't seem to find a card that I want to take out for the 3rd firestorm especially against merfolk. I was thinking of taking out the Macabres and replace them for the 3rd firestorm and maybe an Iona as a dedicated DR target for Aggro Loam and Survival @_@ What do you guys think?

[No Trash Cougar]

good cards against survival are chain of vapor, claim of nature, ray of revealation and maybe voidstone gargoyle

[NetherGamer]

Hi guys! So I've been working on dredge for a little while now, and am just looking for some help on my side board. Right now, it looks like such:


4 chain of vapor
4 ancient grudge
3 leyline of the void
1 ray of revelation
1 realm razer
1 ancestor's chosen
1 angel of despair


I've noticed a lot of you using nature's claim. Is that a better choice? What are the reasons for using it over Chain of vapor? Another question I have is regarding Angel of Despair. I had it in there for the reanimator matchup, lousy Blazing archon, but now I'm not sure if it will be necessary, what are your guys thoughts?