I feel like they'd be better with vengevine personally. I honestly haven't tested, but I keep imagining it in my head as...:Originally Posted by Squirrely
Turn 2: cast fauna shaman
Turn 3: discard knight of the reliquary, fetch iona. Opponent finds bolt/swords/removal, and kills the fauna shaman, leaving me with crap instead of the awesomely powerful knight.
Same applies with fauna shaman + squee. I felt like you always have to find something that isn't totally useless.
Patrick Chapin ran a dedicated survival combo (retainers along with both iona and emrakul) using 4 fauna shaman, and it evidently worked out decently at least for him, though I'm waiting for non-premium star city members to have access to his article on it.
My point is, I could easily be wrong. Chapin did run a good amount of discard though, so he'd have been aware of his opponent's hand, and been able to pluck the removal.
There are a few different things you can do with the shaman. Like protect it with a mom. Or untap it twice per turn cycle with a ranger. Or fetch another shaman. They are very good.
I think I would like to take out squee and add a dryad arbor. Fetchable with wayfarer and knight, returns with ranger, and then gets suvivaled away.
Yeah, I agree. I was ignorant to Fauna Shaman because it seems so much worse than Survival at first, but I made up my mind and there is no reason to not play Fauna Shaman, I was really slow on that. Most Survival decks should play it. If you have Survival online you can discard it to it, and if you don't have Survival it can act as a quite solid replacement. It gets Iona online in 2 turns and if you suspect Removal on it you probably play an attrition war anyway so you can just go for Vengevines and make your opponent regret not killing it right away.
I don't know if GW is still the way to go, there are just infinite possibilities for Survival atm it seems, but one thing that GW has going is that Mother of Runes protects Fauna Shaman. There is just no reason to not play 4 Mother of Runes. Against Merfolk, Zoo and Goblins T1 MoR improves the matchup infinetely and against everything with Swords it is also great. So now with Fauna Shaman I hope people go back to 4 MoRs.
Hey Tao, do you have an updated list? Been messing around with this deck, and one of my buddies might run it at the denver 5k. Any help would be appreciated.
I can't provide an updated list that I feel comfortable posting because I had not enough time testing.
But I can tell that the deck would probably play 4 StoP and 4 Survival as the only Spells. Jitte and Elspeth are awesome but I see no room for them atm. It would also run 4 Hierarch, 4 Mother of Runes, 4 Fauna Shaman and 4 Vengevines / 1 Rootwalla as the core of the deck and 22-23 lands. Wayfarer has no room in the deck anymore I think. With the Fauna Shamans it is correct to play the Iona / Retainers Combo again. EoT search Iona, first Main Phase search Retainers + Reanimate is just a degenerated possibility for a 2-drop creature. Just don't run into removal after tutoring for Iona and if you suspect Removal on Fauna Shaman start chaining Vengevines. Even discarding just the one VeVi from your hand is already nice tempo and card advantage and your opponent will regret having waited with his Removal.
From then on deck building gets complicated because I really don't know what numbers of Qasali Pridemage, Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary are right and what one-offs to include. If you get too fancy with reducing your big guys the Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo matchup will certainly suffer. And if you reduce Pridemages you lose a lot flexibility and pressure vs. Control decks because they can probably prevent you from getting Shaman or Survival online. But on the other hand you get big rewards with 8 Survival outlets if you run a single Gaddock vs. Dredge or Combo, a Faerie vs. Loam/Dredge or Reanimator or Genesis/Spore Frog against aggressive decks. So you would have to sculpt the deck so it fits the expected Metagame.
A nice thing I noted is that this deck is well equipeed vs. the somewhat popular Show and Tell / Emrakul as you can just put KotR into play and search Karakas, so don't cut that land. Also I am by now very convinced the deck doesn't need Squee at all. Most tournament reports I read agree with that and the UG Madness guy from the GP also had no Squee.
Well i guess the best thing bout Squee is that you can stall the board with a quite small investment of 1 mana each turn, while you get the "combo" running, wich is nice vs. zoo, tribal & tempo and even vs. Control or Fish it can be used as a bait to force them to use Relic/crypt.
23 Lands, 4 StP, 4 SotF, 4 Mother, 4 Hierch, 4 Shaman, 4 Vv, 1 Rottweiler + 1Iona + 1Retainers = 50 cards.
This means you either have to down the aggro part (KotR, Goyf) or Pridemages, but I have to admit, that these were the best cards for me besides SotF, since I started playing this Deck.
I won to many games just by smacking the opponents face on the back of Goyfs and/or Knights + Mother.
Pridemage is Simply too strong in a meta with tons of CB/Vials/Jittes/SotF/Relics/Crypts.
I'm not sure, if 8 SotF are really needed, alongside with boath combos, it might make the deck to clunky and it simply smells like "danger of cool things"...
Yeah, that is one danger for sure. But on the other hand, if you have Survival you can discard Fauna Shaman to it and if you don't have Survival the danger is also not there simply because you haven't drawn it. When I think about it, probably Qasali Pridemage has to be reduced to one. Goyf is too important against Zoo, Merfolk, Dredge and Goblins to cut it and KotR is just insane. Shaman can be a repleacement for what Pridemage does, if you stick it early he goes around CB (with Vengevines) and if you desperately need to get rid of a Moat or something he can Tutor for Pridemage.
But on the other hand I initially also overrated Stoneforge Mystic so it might be hype for nothing again :)
fauna shaman seems alot worse to me if you are not running vial.
Been trying out this list
1x rootwalla
4x mom
4x noble
4x goyf
3x pridemage
3x fauna shaman
4x knight of the reliquary
1x loyal retainers
4x vengevine
1x iona
4x survival
4x StoP
6x fetch
4x horizon canopy
4x savannah
4x forest
1x plains
1x karakas
3x wasteland
I really miss the 2x weathered wayfarers. Squee i did not miss, i would never search for him, i would just try to go for either combo, depending on what i was playing against. Also dropped 1x stoneforge 1x jitte, would rather have a solid sideboard, then a diluted main deck, playing weak singletons. Dont know how i feel about fauna yet, but im going to give it a shot, and see how she works out. Was thinking of cutting 2 cards for 2 wayfarers, but the only cards i could see cutting are these
1x pridemage (dont feel safe going below 3 with how popular counterbalance was at the gp)
1x knight of the reliquary (might not be to bad to cut this, but i love dropping these guys turn 2)
1x fauna shaman (havent tested her yet, but if she is half as good as everyone is saying she is, then i might have to leave her at 3)
Not sure on my sideboard, but im sure it will have these for sure
xx gaddock teeg
1x spore frog
1x genesis
1x faerie macabre
Anybody got any techy sideboard stuff?
I've played ~25 games with a quite similar list, -1 VeVi | +1 Shaman, and i have to admit, that shamans weren't very impressive so far.
I used them most of the times to "transmute" Mothers/Hierarchs/Shamans/VeVi into Goyfs and Knights, there were only 2 or 3 games, were i tryed to assamble Iona "combo" with em, cuz the removal after activation coasts you 1 turn and leaves you with a dead card, so i decided to search for a 2nd shaman first and than to go combo, wich was clunky as hell, but it worked quite well vs. aggro-control.
I've been playing with a really aggressive version of this. Most of the cards are similar but I try to get beats coming down hard and fast. Won a small local tournament with it this past weekend, I'll discuss some of the oddities after I give the decklist.
GW Aggro Survival
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Mox Diamond
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Vengevine
3 Savannah (only cuz I don't have 4)
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
6 Forest
2 Plains
SB ( a bit biased towards my local metagame)
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Aura of Silence
2 Krosan Grip
2 Sanctimony
1 Bayou
2 Engineered Plague
So I'm sure you see several cards there and think WTF, but give me a second to explain my choices.
Mox Diamond is card disadvantage. However, the acceleration it provides at the cost of discarding a land is amazing. It allows turn 1 Survival which sets you up to go smoothly through the game and usually force it through countermagic, allows a turn 1 Mongrel which sometimes leads to a turn 1 Vengevine, and gives you something to do with your duals against a Wasteland wielding opponent. I had a game that went something like this recently: Turn 1 Savannah, Mox, Mox, BoP, Survival with a Vengevine in hand. Top decked a forest, turn 2 I was attacking with 3 Vengevines with 2 Rootwallas watching. There are times that you draw it when you really would have preferred a creature, but it would probably just be replaced with a land anyways which would give the same result.
Birds of Paradise instead of Noble: I do think that the Noble is better, but not by a really large amount and I use the Birds to help with my sideboard.
Creature base is pretty basic I think, the only thing that I might play around with is some Knights of the Reliquary. I think they'd be pretty strong in here but the only thing I can think of taking out for them would be Goyfs.
Enlightened Tutor is dead game 1 if I already have a Survival for sure. But it lets me get some great utility and card slots from the sideboard. I would be very hard pressed to cut it, but it could happen. I'd have to change the sideboard a ton if this got cut though.
Wasteland is amazing, and I don't have mana problems with the deck. Horizon Canopy number is something I'm testing right now. You are almost always the more aggressive deck in any matchup, so the life loss shouldn't matter. I only remember ever being on the defensive against a turn 1 Lackey when on the play, and that's a scary sight for any deck. (unless I have a Swords handy)
Sideboard is fairly standard. Aura of Silence and Teeg both shut down the combo pretty well, I have a fairly heavy burn and tribal (Gobs and Fish) metagame here so I like the 2 sanctimony's handle burn wonderfully, while the Bayou can be fetched (or I can make black with Birds or Mox), and since they don't see any black game 1 they don't side in anything to handle the Engineered Plague.
Overall the deck performs very aggressively, and works just fine without a Survival. If I get a Survival out I'm pretty much always going for the Vengevine combo, but not always. Sometimes you'll need a Pridemage or a Goyf for defense, but it's pretty rare. Without a Survival, your goal is to ramp up mana and get a Goyf or Mongrel rolling asap.
This isn't a dead set list, but there isn't a whole lot that I feel needs to be changed with it. This past weekend was the only time I've brought it out against other people, so I don't have a huge amount of playtesting with it yet.
I played Gobs round 1 and won in 3 games. Game 1 I had 2 active Vengevines on the 2nd turn and didn't look back, game 2 he got turn 1 Lackey and I had no swords, game 3 was Engineered Plague ftw.
Next up was a black control/discard deck. Game 1 I Survivaled away 2 of my Pridemages before I knew that he played Ensnaring Bridge. I learned he played that card when he dropped 3 of them on consecutive turns... Game 2 was 4 Vengevines on the 3rd turn, game 4 I made a huge math error and let him kill me by mis-calculating how much damage he would be able to do when I pushed everybody over.
3rd was Zoo, my creatures are bigger and come out faster after the first turn. 2nd game Wasteland locks my opponent to a single forest and I roll.
4th was mono red burn. Game 1 I have him at lethal on my next turn. He goes Bolt Bolt Fireblast. I pitch 2 cards to my Mongrel and Swords it to stay alive, then he sacs his last 2 Mountains for another Fireblast. Game 2 I have a Sanctimony out and 3 Vengevines on 3rd turn, Game 4 is more Sanctimony action but this time it's Goyf/Mongrel beatdown with no Survival.
Last match was a different Gobs deck. He won the roll and came with a Lackey but I had the Swords this time. I made a turn 2 Mongrel, discarded 2 Vengevines and a Rootwalla then put them all in play. Game 2 he had a Lackey again but I had a turn 1 Rootwalla to guard. I don't see a Survival or Tutor and he eventually makes enough guys to come over the top. Game 3 he makes a quick army and drops a Pithing Needle, so I have to start playing defense, but then I topdeck Engineered Plague followed by Tutor for the other Plague.
Goblins is a tough matchup if they get a turn 1 Lackey, but they're hard pressed to keep up if not. I didn't get a chance to play against Merfolk or combo. I will be doing some extensive playtesting later this week and will post here with anything major I notice. Let me know what you guys think, and please be gentile. :D
Hi,
i have been playing this deck for quiet some time now, though in a slightly more budget version.
I find it quiet shocking that steppe lynx was never mentioned. The card has just so much synergy with a big part of the deck. I use it with 8 fetch lands, which guarantuees a lot of damage. It often does 5-6 damage per turn (with fetch and one or more exalted). I play it currently instead of goyf, since my cash is low. It's a poor replacement, considering goyf's awesomeness. But then again, steppe lynx is a killer. Imagine the kick it gets with a knight of the reliquary? Double land-drop from KotR and a normal land-drop (perhaps even fetch). That would make it a 6/7 at least, every turn.
Has anybody else tested it yet? What are your expierences?
I have been trying this version. It has a landdestruction subtheme with wastelands / wayfarer and ranger interaction.
// Lands
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [A] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
2 [M11] Forest (3)
1 [M11] Plains (2)
// Creatures
4 [ROE] Vengevine
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
2 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [TO] Basking Rootwalla
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
Thoughts?
I ended up going 5-3 today (2-6 on dice rolls) at SCG Minneapolis missing money due to breakers. The list I used was:
1 karakas
3 wasteland
4 savannah
4 horizon canopy
1 plains
4 forest
1 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs
4 windswept heath
4 swords to plowshares
4 survival of the fittest
1 iona, shield of emeria
1 weathered wayfarer
1 loyal retainers
1 basking rootwalla
2 kitchen finks
3 vengevine
4 noble hierarch
4 mother of runes
4 quasali pridemage
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
SB
3 path to exile (boarded in vs. merf, sligh, merf, zoo, survival)
2 elspeth, knight-errant (boarded in sporadically as 1 ofs, never cast her)
2 faerie macabre (boarded in 1 vs. uwb to facilitate hate on recurring explosives, and one vs. bant g2, not g3)
1 gaddock teeg (in vs. uwb, belcher, stax)
1 ethersworn cannonist (in vs belcher)
3 krosan grip (in vs. merfolk, merfolk, bant, stax)
1 kitchen finks (in vs. zoo)
2 tormod's crypt (did not board)
For the sb, path was the all star, with kgrips coming in 2nd.
Round 1:
2-0 vs Uwb counter top control w/ academy and explosives. I was able to stick a mom and tarm before he could assemble counter-top. G2 I was able to survive an explosves with diversity between 1 and 2 mana creatures. Tarm and pumped rootwalla got there.
Round 2:
2-1 vs. Mono blue merfolk
I stabilzed at 9 life with him being as high as 23 before tarm and venge got there. My notes show g2 him taking 1 from fow and wining at 19. g3 he scoops to overwhelming board presence as I gripped his jitte after he eqiuped in an attempt to stave off the beats. Mom provided protection from his submerge all game.
Round 3:
0-2 vs. Mono red sligh
I believe I should win this match, as drawing survival means I win the next turn (iona). However, I did not see survival either game. I was going to mull into it g2 but saw this (forest, forest, fetch, stp, finks, finks, knight) Thinking finks will give me 8 pt life buffer I kept. He landed a t2 sulfuric vortex and I never saw survival or pridemage.
Round 4:
0-2 vs. Belcher
He won the die roll, t1 belcher for 60. g2 I went savannah -> noble. He went, EOT cycle SW, cycle SW. Draw step. Belcher for 66. I lost twice t1 in legacy this event out of 8 rounds. There was 1 turn 1 kill during the 13 rounds of vintage I played at gencon (I vault + keyed out tps g2 w/pierce back up).
Round 5
2-0 vs. Saito merfolk
His standsill killed himself g1. He had something like mutavault, 2/1 adept, then dropped standstill. I had 2 lands and a healthy mom. He attacked w/both!? I blocked, tapped, pro blue. Killed it. Drew. Played wasteland, killed his muta. Beat down for about 4 before he cracked the sstill. Drew a few lands, but had sufficient gas to run him over.
G2 (Iona lock)I my hand was biblical. Forest, noble, wasteland, survival, survival, tarm, iona. You can image how that ended. t2 survival fow'd. t3 resolved, t4 iona on blue. You can't play magic.
Round 6
2-0 vs. Zoo
G1 (Iona lock) was fairly awesome. He had some nacatls, tarms, multiple lavamancers, but no burn. Ate me down to low life when I topdecked survival. I did not have a creature though!. Past, got beat up. Untapped, drew a creature. I went pitch, vv, vv, iona, stp creature. Untap, pitch iona, retainers, iona on white. Then topdecked some creatures to play Finks the next 3 turns and hit another creature to bring back vvs.
g2 I boarded out the iona combo, and he boarded in multiple crypts. He got land flooded and drew 2 crypts which are actually pretty bad vs. us g2 if we play around them, especially w/ Iona out. I just keep playing finks, and vv. The attrition wears him down and I win.
Round 7
1-2 vs. Bant survival
I think I could have won this one had a played optimally g1. This was the only game I lost where there were like 15 game interactions that could have been done differently and impacted the game. Anyways, my two 10/10 knights cant quite get there as he had tarms, clique, war monk and jitte with counters. I last ditched efforted by getting two canopies to double draw to get a stp, kill his clique, untap and win. But did not get one. G2 I curved out and won. G3 I was just a tad behind all game and he amounted more creatures, particularily ones that flew (Exalted clique and sprite)
Round 8
2-0 vs. Mono white stax
I won the die roll! Went t1 forest -> noble. He goes traitors, chalice at 1. I look at my hand, can waste him but instead play a basic as i have VV in hand. He goes chalice at 2, pass. I play forest, VV, swing 5. He goes stax. I go waste, swing 5. He puts on a counter. I sac, play a perm, swing 5. He puts on a counter. I sac two, swing 5. Win.
g2 I keep a 4 land hand with vv and pridemage. I wander out land drops and survive two armageddons with him have crucible waste lock. Tarm kept attacking for 2. I also sprinked in wafterer's for 1 and pridemages for 2.
I can add more when I find my other life pad and scores.
Did it feel right to run both VVs and Iona/Retainers? Also bad luck about the Burn MU :(
@Waikiki: I'm testing a similar list ATM - 1 Witness -1 Wayfarer + 1 Mum + 1 Pridemage, hows your feeling for it so far? I've always been a fan or running scryb ranger, in this list it looks like a house, as suddenly also the bounce a land clause may have a positive effect .
The deck has been alot of fun to play for me. I do feel the witness is needed. It can get back critical cards. The wayfarer has been really amazing looking for wastelands and cradle to accel.
The only thing I need is some sideboard advice. I have no idea what a good sideboard for the deck is.
My SB is currently:
2 jitte
2 stoneforge mystic
1 path to exile
In against all tribal and zoo (out: Pridemage)
2 tormod's crypt
1 faerie macabre
1 bojiuka bog
In against Ichorid and recursion of various form. (out: depends, but in those matches I want them, pridemages are usually not so hot)
3 krosan grip
In against Control (out: depends, often kitchen finks
2 oblivion ring
In against planeswalkers and show and tell type decks to handle emrakul, which is big in my meta. Also a good go-to card when you feel you need additional removal against random stuff you didn't expect, and hence, miss a SB for.
1 Eternal Witness.
I have none in main, so if I feel various cards are more important after SB, she comes to. Often accompanies both K-grips and graveyard-hate.
My SB currently is:
3 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre (or a 1/1 split with Bog, not sure yet)
In testing, if I feel that I have nothing relevant to side in, I sometimes just grab the Grips, so that I can grip EOT their gravehate/needles on survival and then drop some VVs. Any thoughts about this? (All this assuming they've seen Survival/VVs G1)
@Waikiki: How relevant was the Cradle for you?
@Waikiki: If you feel comfortable with your build I try to give advice on SB for that, though I think the deck gets better with 4 Mother of Runes. Especially now that some Merfolks run Perish in SB they become quite important.
In your case I would go for a Tutor based SB because you lack some flexibility without Fauna Shaman and Mono creature. So 2 Enlightened Tutor would be good vs. Combo and nonblue decks. With Scryb Ranger and Wayfarer you need a good amount of slots vs. Zoo and Gobs, so for you it could like this:
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oust
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Null Rod
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Aura of Silence
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Gaddock Teeg
Vs. merfolk:
- 3 Wayfarer
+ 1 Finks
+ 1 Nul Rod
+ 1 Dueling Grounds
Vs. Zoo
- 3 Wayfarer
- 2 Scryb Ranger
+ 1 Finks
+ 2 Oust
+ 2 Tutor
Vs. Goblins
- 3 Wayfarer
- 2 Scryb Ranger
- 2 Pridemage
+1 Finks
+2 Oust
+1 Dueling Grounds
+2 Tutor
+1 Null Rod
Vs. Countertop Bant
+ 2 Krosan Grip
+ 1 Null Rod
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
- 1 Witness
- 3 Mother of Runes
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