You should run Mirror Entities instead of Goblin Chieftains in Rw. They are nuts when combined with Warren Instigator, Mogg War Marshall and Siege-Gang Commander and just about any other goblin out there. Vile one in when Zoo attacks and pump your guys = one sided board sweeper. The Merfolk matchup will also increase to 99-1 seeing how their lords boost your goblins (+1/+1 and island walk).
Im currently building my SB for the next event. The matchup concerning me the most is combo - DDFT and TES. Im still not sure how many slots i want do devote for those. Actually i only have 4 free slots and im not sure which card(s) are the best.
My SB atm:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Perish
3 Planar Void
1 Relic of P.
3 Lighning Bolts
1 Sharpshooter
Im not sure about the Therapies atm, they can be very good with MWM but often dont hit or to slow. Brainstorm in response/ 2nd Turn Flashback, but same is true for Thoughtseize/Duress. Although Therapies/Seizes can be usefull against other decks too.
other options:
Mindbreak Trap - Kind of useless after Turn1 because of Chant and Duress. Very good against Belcher but useless in other matchups
Chalice of the void - Useless on the draw, only slows them down a bit, but might be the best option. Kinda useless in other matchups (you just dont want to board it)
Thorn of Amethyst - Somewhat slow but pretty effective, can be useful against pure control like Landstill.
no combohate at all - the combomatchup is the worst matchup for goblins for sure, so maybe just drop all the hate to have more advantages over other decktypes and just prey the comboplayer fizzles or make mistakes?
other ideas? Thoughts?
€dit:
Has anybody ever tried running 3-4 Simian Spirit Guides Main? It allows us to dodge Daze, cast Lackey Vial first turn and Waste. It allows faster Warchiefs and we get the option on first turn Chalice1 or Amethyst.
Its obv much better otd than otp and its not a goblin, but with ~34 Goblins left, Ringleader should be good enough.
Last edited by Humphrey; 08-15-2010 at 11:49 AM.
Thoughts:Originally Posted by Humphrey
Cabal Therapy - IMO it's not worth it. You justed named the most important shortcomings of that card. What I don't understand: I what other MU do you bring them in? I can't think of any MU in which you want to have less Goblins (which you most certainly will board out).
Mindbreak Trap - didn't test it. But in theory I would agree with you. Against DDFT and and TES you can probably surprise them in g2 (after you lost g1), but in g3 they will play around it or search for Duress/Chant (as you just said)
Chalice - I really like that card (I run it in SB myself). Therefore I consider it the most effective way to disrupt combo. I don't agree with you when you are saying that it's useless OTD. I most often put it down for 0 to not disrupt myself and not wasting t2 for a non-goblin spell. There are hands with which it's clever to put it down for 2, but I think shutting down 10-12 of their mana cards is more effective.
Plus, this card is absolutely effective against Canadian Thresh (since they seldomly run artifact/entchanment removal)
Thorn of Amethyst - I tried it out. If you are able to resolve it against combo it will buy you enough time to win the game. But this is not very likely when you are OTD. I boarded it against Landstill and some other heavy control deck. In both cases it didnt even slow them down a bit. Oftentimes they wont be able to cast their EOT-Brainstorm, but that's it.
No combo hate at all - I used to play without any, but I guess our MU against non-Belcher combo decks isn't that bad. We can kill on t3 too, and without Mystical tutor combo has hard time in fining solutions for your combo hate. Therfore I would run cards that hate combo, but not ONLY combo (which I think is the case with Mindbreak Trap)
I also use Chalice of the Void in my board (I play monoR). I usually drop it on 0 and hopefully a Lackey or a Vial because like what GoboLord said, I don't really like wasting my turn2 dropping a Chalice @ 1 when I am trying to race.
It is also strong against Reanimator too if it is popular in your meta.
Coralhelm Commander does indeed improve their matchup considerably. But this should still be a very easy matchup.
You win the long game. They have to kill you pretty fast, or at the very least, spam lords very fast. There are two fronts, the creature war, but also the land war (feat. piledriver, since he can be blocked by mutavault). Win one of them and you will usually win the game (as long as you have a piledriver for the land war). What's also great is that you can either race them and oftentimes beat them (play 4 piledrivers in today's meta!), or hold out and win with ringleader/matron. You have a lot of avenues to victory, but from my testing in this matchup, merfolk only wins with a fast commander, a fast jitte, or a fast double lord play. Otherwise the game is yours to lose usually.
Pyrokinesis is the best sideboard card. Combat often comes down to one deciding battle, and the rest of the game kind of flows by itself or gets caught in a standstill (no pun intended). It's a pretty thoughtless matchup compared to most, in my opinion.
Mindbreak Trap - bad
Chalice of the Void - bad
Pyrokinesis - usually a 4of
I don't mess around with cute tricks in my sideboard like combo hate, or boarding in chalice against tempo thresh. Usually, those cute tricks in goblins really fucking suck. Keep the tricks with your tops and brainstorms, not with your draw engine dependent on the card being a goblin.
Pyrokinesis gets the job done. Krosan grip gets the job done. Tormod's Crypt gets the job done. These are the cards I want in my sideboard: fast, efficient, and powerful at any point in the game. I want to stick to the goblin game plan, I should be able to dump the SB card easily but it needs to have a potent effect still. Because I often will only get 1 chance to see a sideboard card.
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Pyromancer
...Is my current SB setup for Rg goblins (what I believe to be the superior splash in the Columbus meta). The last two don't fit my SB philosophy, but they are goblins that are useful in a variety of matchups. Pyromancer against burn/landstill, as well as the mirror, and potentially more. And stingscourger against decks like new horizons, aggro loam, tempo thresh, etc.
This build also runs 4/2/1 split of Gempalm/Sting/Crafter.
How many do you run in total in your 75?
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Oh fuck I havent been paying attn again. Thanx. Another question then: and how many Mogg War Marshalls?
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
On a side note I have been having alot of succes with this list:
I might think about a splash of green for grip and tin street but this is where I'm at
// Lands
15 [UG] Mountain
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 1 [ROE] Tuktuk the Explorer
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 [WWK] Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
Tuk tuk explorer is a testslot against zoo. It seems pretty strong also against mass removal
Speaking of mass removal, has anyone tried Firespout against Zoo and other weenie rush based strategy.
Yes, I know, Firespout is really good against Goblins and kills us but when it comes down to it, Goblin can recover faster to board removal.
I got this idea because back in my casual days during Onslaught, there was this dude who ran Pyroclasm and it was effective with the rest of the the field (it was tribal swarm), and he would recover faster than everyone else (because of Matron/Ringleader/Commander)
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I use pyro + mogg war marshall for that purpose. They stall the game against tribal/zoo until I can overrun them by card advantage
Iver never been a friend of Pyrokinesis. Often you just trade 2-2 or worse, i prefer Bolts since they can just burn the opponent or planeswalker.
I dont see where Kinesis is much superior to bolt. maybe someone can enlighten me.
Pyroknesis is awesome because it does not delay your plan, and is way more unespected.
Yes, it is usually a 2-2, but (and it is a big BUT), your opponent probably spent 3-4 manas and 1-2 turns casting his creatures, and you spent 0, at instant speed. Even when you 2-1 yourself it is a good deal, because you get an advantage out of it, like connecting a lackey, or surviving for a few more turns.
Man, all blue decks 2-1 themselves all the time, countering 1 mana spells, and we know that's a good play.
Also, if you combine it with Gempalm, Sharpshooter, or use it as a defensive tool, it can nail you way better trades. Not often time I had 3-2 a Goblins or Merfolk player.
You just have to think carefully when is the best moment to use it, and what is the best card to pitch to it. (for me, early is usually SGC or Warchief, and late-game is Lackey)
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Before I really hated Pyrokinesis because I rather have more goblins in my hand. But after reintroducing it into my SB against Zoo, it was amazing for me. Honestly, 2-2 against a zoo is great because I can refill my hand quickly but they cannot. Anytime Zoo mulls in G2 & G3, Pyrokinesis is the bomb.
@ ScatmanX
I actually never used Pyrokinesis to clear the way for Lackey connection. A) Lackey usually gets removed before I get to use it or B) Never have Pyrokinesis and Lackey together.
There is the potential to use lackey and kinesis together, no one said you always get both in hand every time you board in the card if you did I would be running 4 SGC's because you could simply make lackey connect on the play via pyrokinesis. But pyrokinesis is amazing against other aggro decks including zoo especially ones with steppe lynx. Imagine they go turn 1 steppe lynx turn 2 grim lavamancer but no fetchland for lynx. You pyrokinesis both, 2 for 2-ing the zoo player by removing say a goblin lackey in hand or some other dead card.
Why would you ever run firespout in goblins? That is simply counterintuitive. The argument that we recover faster is based solely on us being able to cast a ringleader or siege gang next turn or lackey plus warchief after firespout. There's a reason people run firespout against us. It is a wrath effect for 3 mana against goblins, which I hear is amazing when you spend one mana to kill 2 or more of the opponents cards to produce CA.
Tin street hooligan is trash with warchief. I'd rather just play goblin tinkerer, and if warchief is in play it has haste so you can immediately destroy any artifact if you have R open. It also produces CA if it destroys more than one artifact which is possible against cards like chalice of the void or mishra's factory. And it can kill chrome mox with the imprint trigger on the stack as a plus in corner cases. And with a goblin chieftain in play, it can blow up jitte without suiciding itself.
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Today I played against Zoo w Gobos. Post-board, Pyrokinesis shined. Especially when you deal with Steppe Lynx builds, Pyrokinesis often wipes your opponent's team post-combat.
Also, Supachai and I have been testing that matchup a lot. Goblins has been winning a good majority of the matches. I think Gobos could make a comeback to DTB if people switch away from the old builds toward the ones running Mogg War Marshall.
Luck is a residue of design.
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Expect me or die. I play SI.
3 MWM. I don't like sharing lists that need testing, as I'm still working on it. I will say that I thought Steve Sadin's 60 build for Columbus is close to what I aiming for.
Let me know how explorer goes. I'm interested in hearing. I'm not very optimistic, but I'm open to possibilities.
I'm hesitant to move up to 4 MWM myself, but I see what you are going with with the 3 chieftain. I would just say to make sure to gauge mass removal levels in your meta because your list's easiest way to victory seems to be swarm strategy with some possible overextension. Personally, I don't like to play that way, as what I like about goblins is that I have a little more control over what happens to me compared to generic legacy aggro decks.
These are wise words about pyrokinesis. ScatmanX hits all the major points. I recommend 4 but can understand 3, and possibly 0 if you are trying the perish angle.
Pyrokinesis is a skill testing card. The good players love it, the bad players question it.
How many times does this have to be repeated? Many people have tested, and many people have concluded, that the interaction between warchief and TSH is negligible.
But just watch, five pages down the line, somebody else will mention this.
I don't know why people sometimes obsess over interactions like this by putting them in a vaccuum. It just isn't logical to approach magic that way, at least deck construction, it takes a big picture outlook.
Take, for instance, in the dragon stompy thread, Sword of Fire/Ice + Rakdos Pit Dragon. Countless times testers pointed out that the interaction is negligible (but SOFI's playability was always in somewhat question with moar jittes always available), but countless times random people posted that they aren't playing SOFI because of the drawback.
Back to in regards to tinkerer...It doesn't suicide itself so we got a dorky 2/3 that any card could have made? It can kill chrome mox with the imprint trigger on the stack? These are honestly two of your arguments for tinkerer? Look at the numbers, the artifacts you face day in and day out. Jitte, Vial, those are what matter the most. Most other things are just cute to kill with both of the cards and which one will be superior in that situation is a crap shoot.
But TSH definitely wins out vs. jitte/vial. Those are what matter.
Tinkerer sucks except for the occasional SB, because he doesn't follow the goblin plan. He's a tempo sink, and honestly shouldn't be played by anyone. I understand that some people hold on to him tightly because they like having outs, but this is not countertop. This is goblins. We smash and run around our problems, never face them directly. We need to win before they can catch up with their superior spell quality! My opponent should always be fearing pressure. A card being efficient/good does not make it efficient/good in goblins. This is not an ordinary legacy deck and card selection is very picky compared to many other decks, even among the "playable" goblins themselves.
@ Vacrix, agreed. MWM needs to be in your 60 at this point if your meta is anything like Columbus. Instigator doesn't fit well for the Columbus meta, because ports are becoming more and more useful (along with 2cc flex-spot MWM).
I cannnot tell how much I agree with what you guys (ScratchmanX, Vacrix and FoulQ) said about Pyrokinesis, MWM and TSH.
I cam to the very same conclusion considering Pyrokinesis. I found it bad cause I always removed "slow" cards like Matron and Ringleader to connect Lackey, leaving me with no card to bring in for the trigger. Now that I learned how to use it, I love this card.
On a different topic:
1. What do you guys think of [card]Nature's Claim[/card] instead of Krosan Grip (to not lose speed).
2. I tested 3 Goblin Tunneler. I found it great but other cards were more useful and I cut it down to 2, then to 1 copy. I like sneaking Lackey and Piledriver around Fatories and Mutavaults. What do you think? Worth it?
I'm not gonna argue with any of you folks about TSH VS Tinkerer. Frist off, you have more experience than i do, secondly, I agree with you. TSH is indeed better than Tinkerer.
But let's imagine you play Mono Red Goblins. You get to choose between Scrapper and Tinkerer - which one is superior? Scrapper is more expensive, but can still attack/block and pings the opponent (yay, marginal upside!).
Also, which one would you say is more important for a Mono Red build - Wasteland or Rishadan Port?
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
Scrapper.
I played with Tinker up until 2 months ago, and realize now that Scrapper is better.
That said, run none of them. Pithing Needle deal with Jitte/Top/nasty things.
Rg can run TSH.
Wasteland.
You don't want to just tap a Tabernacle...
cute...
@Nature's Claim: I once tested Seal of Primordium, so the deck would curve better, and I wouldn't have to leave mana open, but I think Grip is the best option right now.
@Tunneler: Really don't see it being great, but never tested it (and probably never will...). The deck has won so many good 2drops in the last couple of years, I don't see that one shining more than others...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
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