Crz87, I'm glad to hear the deck served you well. I know that deck has made me a ridiculous amount of $ over the years by sharking up local legacy tourneys. The only thing I want to point out is that when I play against ANT I never take out all the STPs because if they SB in Dark Confidant, you can take a serious beating from the cards he'll give them. I usually go -3 EE, -1 PTE, -2 Elspeth, -1 STP +4 Meddling Mage, +3 REB.
Also, for the mirror match or anything close to it, I would never bring in Meddling Mage for fear of locking out your own spells later. I've had to play the mirror one or twice, and I've gone -4 Standstill, -1 PTE +2 Tormod's Crypt, +3 REB.
Again, I'm quite happy to hear that you smashed some people with the deck. I hope everybody else can get the same results.
Hey can anyone give some advise for my new Landstill deck. As with previous posters I have become somewhat dissatisfied by standstill. So I'm aiming for a toolbox approach which I really like with Cunning Wish and a draw go strategy with FOF. All while still having multiple ways to deal with things like Vexing Shusher. I love Cunning wish for E tutor and grabbing an answer. So the sideboard is also many artifacts and enchantments that will hopefully be silver bullets. The decks I want to focus on beating are Merfolk and Combo (Storm, Encantress and show and tell) while keeping in mindcan be a weakness for Landstill. Cunning wish for Mindbreaktrap seems strong against Storm.
I really like Jace Mind Sculptor but I don't get why people are going so mental over him I still like Elspeth better she can give you a faster clock and potentially provide some free creature trading. Anyways I don't want to get into a huge flame war over the best Plainwalkers I think we can all agree they are both great for control. Perhaps I will learn to like Jace even more in the future. But I love how I can make 5/5 flyers out of my Factories and send them over the Moat too much
24 land
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
3 Cunning Wish
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Wrath of God
4 STP
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 SDT
1 EE
1 Powder Keg
Side
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Circle of protection: red
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Pithing Needle
There are a couple things that I don't like at your list (besides the missing Standstills). 3 Wishes seem to much, as your Wishboard isn't so strong to actually win the game out of nowhere.
I also don't get the point of playing Humility in your board when you got acces to E.Tutor (besides Humility loses so much power post board that you will hardly side it in for G2/3).
Preordain looks cute, but SDT nr. 2 seems to be superior. I'd also cut the Hallowed Fountain for a Glacial Fortress (you can't fetch it but besides it has all advantages while being immune to Choke) and a Delta for Srubland, to play an Extirpate in the board. Powder Keg can't compete with Explosive, as Explosive can get rid of Tokens and Chalice and Vials and all the other stuff while still being much more versatile.
I'd also play Vedalken Shackles as another tollbox target that can stall out a game if your opponent doesn't find an answer.
My final list would look like this:
4 Strand
2 Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical
4 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
4 Mishra
4 Wasteland
1 Academy
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Swords
2 Wrath
1 Humility
1 Crucible
3 EE
1 Shackles
4 Brainstorm
2 SDT
2 Wish
1 E.Tutor
2 FoF
2 Jace
2 Elspeth
4 Force
3 CS
3 Snare
Board:
1 Pulse
1 Extirpate
2 Path
1 E. Tutor
1 Grip
2 Relic
1 Wheel/Crypt
3 Negate/Spell Pierce
1 Fix Slot (Mindbreak Trap, Ravenous Trap,Tsabos Decree,Echoing Truth,Return to Dust, etc. guess this one is a meta call)
2 Preacher / Llawan (I'd play Preacher but I guess this is moreover a personal taste)
I'm not really sure if the Deck can compete without Standstill but I'd give it a shot (even if the name Landstill doesn't make much sense now ;) ).
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
@Felidae Thanks for the list revision that looks good to me. I was thinking about a game 1 answer with Cunning Wish to dredge and graveyard abuse. Wish has been the bomb to me. I would hate to drop it to 2.
I had Shackles in an earlier version and it seemed slow to me also I wasn't getting enough islands to nab a Goyf or bigger creatures. I upped my land count though so it might be possible, although I still believe it to be a bit slow and clunky. Also I would think Hallowed Fountain would be better with Shackles then Glacial Fortress as it counts as Island.
The Powder keg is for dealing with opposing man lands. I like having an option.
And finally what is this Preacher you speak of? Anything to deal with Merfolk.
Preacher is basicly Shackles on legs, without the drawback to need an amount of Islands. He comes in mind against Merfolk as he can grab any kind of creature and force the Merfolk player to over extend the board. He's also pretty good against the most Bant Decks, as they tend to board there StP's out for stuff like Grip etc. (at least my opponents have done this alot).
With 4 Mishras, 4 Wastelands and 4 StP'S: Do you really need another answer to manlands?
I like Shackles, but the Island count might really be a bit low to abuse the card with it's full potential, and yeah in this case Fountain would be better^^.
Maybe -1 Scrubland and -1 Glacier for 1 Usea and 1 Fountain. With 8 Islands there should be a ton of creatures that you'd be able to steal, even with manadenial.
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
What has happened to this thread? I haven't had time to talk on the source for like a year due to being super busy with school and stuff, but now that I've got more time, it seems like the UW Landstill thread is a ghost town. Has everybody else like bailed on the deck or whats up guys?
It does seem like the UWx builds fell out of favor, especially with the UGB version gaining popularity via 5K's and the recent GP Top 8.Originally Posted by ChiiMagic
I took a UWb list to the GP and definitely regretted it, and I've had such a bad taste in my mouth that I've decided to quit playing the deck for a while, and left to explore UGw Tempo, TES, and other options. I had a lot of success with Landstill earlier this year, but lately I feel like the deck has lost a lot of power compared to the how the current metagame developed and can only evolve so much. Where other decks have gained new creatures, new strategies, and new cards, UWx Landstill has stayed relatively the same. I tried to prove a lot of the critics wrong at the GP, and despite building what I thought was the best list for my chances of success, I wound up just losing a shitload of rating points to decks like SnT/Hypergenesis, Dream Halls, Reanimator, and similar archetypes.
Maybe I'll decide to play the deck at some point again but at the moment, I haven't exactly "bailed" on the deck, but am keeping my mind open on other deck choices.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
I mostly lurk. I posted my list not too long ago, I also have this little report. But I don't really like getting into too many discussions with people I don't know on-line.
We can discuss the differences between our lists but what it comes down to is preference. You like Isochron Scepter, so do I but I want to play some other cards a bit more. You like playing 2x of each planeswalker and a second Crucible, I like playing 3 Decrees. People think the curve of my deck is too high and I say, "lower it then"
We're in this rut where those of us that have experience with the deck have adapted it to our playstyles and metagames (as you should with any control deck) and are left to say, "Well, I like this"
I've played around with Knappstill but I wasn't happy with the number of cards that I lost that I've come to swing my entire play style for Landstill around.
I guess I can do a quick rundown of some topics that have come up, maybe it will inspire me to come back and try to defend my choices.
Shackes - its way to slow for one, you aren't playing as many Islands as you think for, it doesn't take a goyf until turn 5 at the best, it is another card that is prone to pridemage, it doesn't win the game on its own. That should cover it
Counterpspell and Spell Snare. I plat a 4/1 split. I want all of my counters to be able to hit every possible card. Spell Snare #1 is sometimes played as CS #5. With the way the metagame is shifting you can't really have cards that can't hit Show and Tell or Doomsday or a ritual of some sort until you've maxed out the number of cards that you would play that can hit those cards.
I keep wanting to try Preacher, but that takes some pretty big balls.
I think that Elspeth is the best planeswalker in the deck, but I never play more than one. For a control heavy metagame I would play 2 Jace 1 Elspeth. I don't like playing 3, but I play a high curve all ready and I play tons of answers for opposing planeswlakers so that mine can get the job done right.
If you're playing Jace primarily as a draw spell and not as a win condition, you're probably doing it wrong. Geoff posts a great tidbit about this about a dozen pages back. Jace isn't a replacement for FoF or any other draw spell, but a separate win condition/metagame slot that gives you a lot of flexibility.
Also, if anyone takes a look at my list I have a pretty comprehensive sideobarding table that can be referenced.
[spoiler] if this tag works
Sideboard:
2 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Extirpate
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Negate
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Firespout
2 Relic of Progentius
1 Tormod's Crypt
Although my current board is in flux, this is what I played at the GP. Right now I am not nearly as metagamed against aggro, though.
Zoo
+2 Firespout +1 Path to Exile
Play: -1 Jace, the Mindsculptor -1 Decree of Justice -1 Counterspell
Draw: -1 Standstill -1 Decree of Justice -1 Fact or Fiction
Cards to Wish for: Pulse, Path, E. Tutor
Merfolk [this plan needs to be re-examined as games 2s were gruesome.]
+2 Firespout +2 Path to Exile +1 Enlightened Tutor
Play: -3 Cunning Wish -1 Jace the Mindsculptor -1 Standstill
Draw: -3 Cunning Wish -2 Standstill
No cards to wish for
Goblins
+2 Firespout +1 Path to Exile
-1 Jace the Mindsculptor -1 Force of Will -1 Standstill
Cards to Wish for: E. Tutor, Path, Pulse
Lands
+2 Relic of Progenitus [or +1 Wasteland], +1 Tormod's Crypt +1 Negate +1 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Humility, -1 Wrath of God, -2 Swords to Plowshares -2 Path to Exile, -1 Engineered Explosives
Cards to Wish for: Extirpate, Ravenous Trap, Red Elemental Blast
New Horizons/Tempo Bant
+1 Path to Exile
-1 Cunning Wish w/o Jace
-1 Force of Will w/ Jace
Relic is a consideration against Terravore.
Cards to Wish for: Enlightened Tutor, Path to Exile, Red Elemental Blast
Dredge
+2 Relic of Progenitus [or +1 Wasteland], +1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Extirpate +1 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Wrath of God, -3 Standstill, -1 Engineered Explosives
Cards to Wish for: Ravenous Trap, E. Tutor,
Thopter Control
+1 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Relic of Progenitus [or +1 Wasteland], +1 Tormod's Crypt.
-2 Path to Exile, -1 Wrath of God, -1 Humility, -1 Moat
Cards to Wish for: Return to Dust, E. Tutor, Red Elemental Blast
Landstill Mirror:
+1 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Wrath of God, -1 Humility, -1 Moat, -1 Path to Exile
Cards to Wish for: E. Tutor, Red Elemental Blast, Path to Exile
Belcher:
+1 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Path to Exile(Draw) +2 Firespout(Play)
-1 Moat, -1 Humility, -1 Wrath of God, -1 Path to Exile (Play)
Cards to Wish for: Nothing, really. Pitch them to FoW
Storm Combo
+1 Negate, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Wrath of God, -1 Humility, -1 Moat, -1 Engineered Explosives
Cards to Wish for: Mindbreak Trap, E. Tutor, Path to Exile.
Eva Green
+1 Path to Exile
-1 Engineered Explosives
Cards to Wish for: Enlightened Tutor, Path to Exile, The 3rd one just won't happen.
Show and Tell/Eureka/Hypergenesis:
+1 Mindbreak Trap +1 Negate +1 Red Elemental Blast
-2 Path to Exile -1 Engineered Explosives
Cards to Wish for: Extirpate, E. Tutor
Aeon Bridge
[+1 Wasteland] +1 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Red Elemental Blast
-3 Engineered Explosives
Cards to Wish for: Extirpate, Enlightened Tutor, Path to Exile
Natural Order Counter-Top
No boarding
Cards to Wish for: Path to Exile, Return to Dust, Red Elemental Blast
Reanimator:
+2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap
-3 Engineered Explosives, -1 Moat, -1 Path to Exile
Cards to Wish for: Extirpate, Ravenous Trap, Enlightened Tutor.
Aluren
+1 Negate, +1 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Moat, -1 Wrath of God
Cards to Wish for: Extirpate, Mindbreak Trap, Enlightened Tutor
Stax:
W/o Metalworker
+1 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Path to Exile, -1 Wrath of God, -1 Moat -1 Humility
W/ Metalworker
+1 Negate +1 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Relic of Progentius
-1 Moat -1 Wrath of God, -1 Decree of Justice, -1 Path to Exile
Cards to Wish for: Return to Dust, Enlightened Tutor, Path to Exile.
Dream Halls
+1 Negate +1 Mindbreak Trap +2 Relic of Progenitus +1 Red Elemental Blast +1 Extirpate
-1 Swords to Plowshares -2 Path to Exile -3 Engineered Explosives
Elf-ball – No Boarding
Elf Survival – -1 ...hmmm, +1 Path to Exile
[spoiler]
Team Bad Guys
I have come up with an excellent way to be happy! Every time someone says a sentence I simply add on a few words after it:
Oh my goodness, it's been so great. People with stupid opinions now immediately acknowledge how dumb they are! Internet fights still have all the swears and name calling but now they're instantly undermined by my new suffix.
The thread is dying because we needed people like you (John Knapp) to restore hope that the deck is still solid.
Legacy is changing though after my 6month break. It's shifted into an aggro heavy, bant-color aggro-control, and decks that cheat Emrakul/Iona in (Show and Tell, Reanimator, Hypergenesis, Dream Halls, Mosswort Bridge, Natural Order).
My friend made the comment, the even more recent change was the popularity of decks that won game 1 and go to time on game 2 e.g. Countertop Thopter. Landstill falls under on of these decks as well. Landstill has actually been more popular recently, but that's mainly pertaining to the UBG/UBGw decks packing 4 deeds 4 Jace.
Your list was the one that resparked my interest in Landstill again. I have always played Landstill, but felt that the deck did not treat me fairly in tournaments by giving me bad hands and matchups. Although I have learned to be more aggressive at keeping better hands, and playing out more carefully. UGB/UGBw Landstill packs more inevitability with deeds and Jace, but I feel that the maindeck is weak. I took your advice on the Chants, and they are far from dead since they serve as:
1) Additional disruption to combo game 1, make you win unexpectedly
2) Resolve Jace with Chant and win against control mirror
3) Fog for a turn to dig another spell to beat aggro.
4) On a scepter and win
I've been playtesting a slightly different list. I know Mr Knapp has been tweaking his UWr list for years, and I chanced upon old articles/tournament placing/reports where he placed in a number of Top8s. I am experimenting with the idea outside of red, and a main motivation still lingers with my preference for Wishstill builds. I felt that red was not too effective with Cunning Wishes, so I opted to change the maindeck a little, hybridizing my old UBw Wishstill with John's UWr Scepterstill
Here's my list for this weekend:
(24 Lands)
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Humility
3 Jace TMS
2 Elspeth
1 Crucible of Worlds
Sideboard:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Orim's Chant
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ethersworn Canonist
Card explanations:
- 4 Brainstorm/4 Standstill
Nothing to say here. I have tried replacements for Standstill in other forms of control decks, but seriously, this IS the best draw 3 in the format but you need the deck to complement it.
- 2 Isochron Scepter
Tested 3, a little clunky, 3 might do well in a UWr running Fire//Ice. I'm about 2 instants short in my list compared to John's to imprint on Scepter, so 2 is just the right amount for me. This is not a deck that wins on Scepter, but it uses Scepter as an advantage generator. I would imprint Brainstorm anytime if that were the only card in my hand. Even brainstorm on a scepter would net you a card every turn, while giving you the best of 3 cards in your hand, combined with fetches dig for more answers.
- 2 Cunning Wish
Sometimes amazing, sometimes underwhelming (paying 2U + W for a Path is not cool) and against faster decks game 1, these may cost you the game. But in general, I like the flexibility in game 1, since against non-aggro decks, you can grab an Extirpate and potentially screw a gameplay due to split-second if Cunning Wish resolves. I'll raise some examples why Cunning Wish is nice in this list (and as always in a UWb list)
1) Fetch ETutor that grab Standstill/Crucible/EE/Isochron/Humility, 2 wish acts as the 6th/3rd/5th/4th/3rd copy for these spells respectively.
2) Grabs Pulse against aggro to stabilize, if they're not playing blue, Pulse becomes a big problem unless discarded. This wins/stabilizes me plenty of game 1s. I noticed John plays Descendant of Kiyomaro which is a BEAST! But I feel that Landstill has a good aggro matchup, so 3 of the white-warmonks are wasting some slots in the sideboard. Wish would free up 2 slots in the SB and you yet have access to a stabilizing effect.
3) Grabs Grip. Now I seldom do this but getting rid of a Choke/Counterbalance is always nice, and I'm still justifying the Tropical Island MD (See Tropical Island discussion below)
4) Get a Path to Exile, 2 Wish into this act as a slow 4cc StP effect. I'm usually fine with just 4 StP, so the wish frees my maindeck, but against fast aggro, this can be a problem
5) Grab Diabolic Edict against Iona naming white, against Progenitus/Emrakul. This SB slot is meta-gamed but I feel is needed if you're playing UWb Wishstill in a meta of Show and Tells
6) Get the 3rd Orim's Chant. Holding onto the Sceptor for a better instant? Get this for scepter, or wish to try to fight against combo game 1 (Turn 4 not likely though lol)
7) Extirpate. If you scepter this, you probably win as much as Chant on a stick. Now this is a common wish target. Extirpate is a double-edged sword. They suck in the maindeck, but are golden in the right situations, therefore having them in the wishboard does what the deck needs the most: not wasting maindeck space but having the ability to grab it against Loam/combo (dark rituals)/opposing FoW/Counterbalance to resolve Jace
Out of the wishboard, ETutor/Path/Edict/Chant/Extirpate can all be imprinted so it's advisable to not use Wish unless you need it to save your skin, otherwise keep it to fetch a relevant target or wait till the scepter comes into your hand.
Depending on the matchup, I might play without Wishes postboard, but I think in game1, they serve as a great resource against an unknown opponent as long as they're not rocket fast (you lose those games anyway if you don't have wish and drew any random card that did not mattered)
- 4StP/3EE
Nothing to say here. 4EE is a little too clunky, 2 is too little. EE is the best removal printed for Landstill (gets Counterbalance, set it at 2 colors but pay 4cc to dodge it), and many more targets, great against Zoo, and decent against tribal. Recursion with Ruins is a plus. I play a Trop just to hit 4cc against plainswalkers in the mirror
- 1 Humility
So John's list has showed me that without Wrath/Humility, Landstill can still top8. I played with 2 Humilities last week and they saved me against Zoo, but were dead cards against other matchups (mirror, enchantress etc). Due to the inclusion of scepter/chant, I'm dropping this down to 1, since I can still fetch it up with Cunning WIsh->ETutor, making it a psuedo 3 copies of Humility if I need it. I might end up dropping it entirely seeing how it goes but I know Humility has been the best answer for me against aggro.
- 3 Jace TMS/2 Elspeth
Played with 2 copies, and I just wanted more. 4 will clog up too much, 3 seems just right, and the extra always pitches to FoW. Jace just seems better than Elspeth against any matchup, but I still play the 2 Elspeth with the prominence of aggro decks in Legacy. A resolved Jace against a creatureless board is devastating, so the challenge is to keep the board clear, and that should not be too hard for Landstill. I was always annoyed with the lack of Fact or Fiction in my later Landstill lists and the inclusion of scepter/chant does not help solve the card slots, so running 3 Jace gives me a little more card advantage than 2 Jace in my list that lacks some card advantage compared to FoF lists
- 1 Crucible
I lost to the mirror because of this. I might want to try 2, but I think it is not as game-winning a card in general except when paired against a control mirror. I play 1 since I have 2 Wishes to ETutor for it when I really need it or to wastelock someone out. It's just a great card in Landstill since dropping every land a turn is why this deck wins. Having 2 might risk into drawing 2 copies, so 1 copy with 2 Wishes seems to solve that problem a little.
- 4FoW/4Counterspell
Nothing to say here. Counterspell > Spell Snare to my surprise since I always played 4 Snare, 3 Counterspell in my old lists. Counterspell on Scepter has given me so many free turns/advantage to win the game
- 2 Chants
I liked 3 chants maindeck but they were too much with only 2 scepters. 3 chant 3 scepter is the way to go but due to card slots, I ended up with a 2/2 split.
- 6Fetch/2 Seas/3 Tundra Ideal IMO
- 3 Wasteland/1 Academy Ruins Ideal IMO
- 1 Plains/1 Island non-ideal (would like 2 plains/2island) but since I feel that Faerie Conclave is worth it in the deck, I have to sacrifice on basics
- 2 Faerie Conclave (after realizing that if factories are dealt with Runed Halo/Extirpate), another win-con is always nice, there's already 8 colorless sources so the Conclave is needed the most. What I realized is that these lands solve the planeswalker problem against the mirror as they fly over, and even against the aggro matchups, if you have enough factories to block but not attack, the faeries can take it in the air while the factories stall on the defense. I was tired of not tapping my Factories sideways against many matchups that I'm willing to test 2 out in John's list. I'm a little uncomfortable with 2 basics (instead of 4) so maybe I will up to 2MD Crucibles which complement this strategy well
- 1 Tropical Island: useless land outside of Grip and EE@4, but I feel that just 1 inclusion would make my life much easier against Jace TMS, as tested against a friend, Jace is really tough to get rid off. Unlike aggro decks, you can't really put a clock to hit his counters down with factories, so this 1 extra colored source would make my EEs useful against the mirror instead of sitting dead in my hand. Fetching a grip via wish is never bad if you can support the trop not getting wasted, but decks playing cards worth gripping (counterbalance/chokes/Survival) usually dont run wasteland (e.g. Bant/Survival/Enchantress), even then, you have crucibles so you should not be too bad aside from Blood Moons.
Sideboard:
-3 Ethersworn Canonist (might play 4)
Decided to play these over Meddling Mages. It's effective against combo (much more now since Mystical Tutor is banned so they can no longer EOT tutor up removal, next turn bounce and go off next turn). Canonist says you either draw the removal or Ad Nauseam INTO a removal. Another big plus is against the Loam matchup, you can slow the Loam player down quite significantly although Mage would name Loam so it's about even this matchup. Canonist is stronger in the control mirror since your counters become hard counters if it sticks in play. Against enchantress, it is stronger in general as well, slowing them a lot until they dig for an Aura of Silence/Oring. Canonist also cannot be REBed, which is a plus (and can kill a piledriver! lol)
The UWr version has a straightforward benefit of beating the control mirror, blue decks and merfolks, which is an incredible big plus since Merfolks is always a problematic matchup.
The UWb version is stronger against goblins, Loam, Combo and has decent bonuses against merfolks and control mirror.
Let's compare:
- Control mirror: REB (UWr) v.s. Extirpate (UWb)
REB wins straight 1for1, Extirpate xfor1s at the cost of requiring the specific card in the graveyard but assuming you sandbag counters and counter relevant win-conditions, this will start to shine in the mid-game. I feel that in the control matchup, an extirpate wins more games since it has the potential to take out multiple copies of a spell. REB is more reactive and faster in the earlier games, but the control mirror is really focused on the mid-late game, hitting landdrops and resolving game-winning spells/planeswalkers.
- Merfolks: REB (UWr) v.s. Engineered Plague (UWb)
I rather have REB against merfolks than EP, so UWr wins here, but Eplague is brutal if you resolve it before they resolve lords (a little tough)
- Goblins: UWr no specific red cards (not including BeB argument since UWb can run these as well) v.s. EPlague (UWb)
UWb wins this one straight off the top. Goblins die to Plague since unlike Merfolks, they don't play as many lords
- Loam: UWr no specific red cards v.s. Extirpate (UWb)
Extirpate is huge against the Loam matchup, which I personally find to be one of Landstill's HARDEST matchups, always 50-50 and 70-30 in their favor if they get loam going. They draw more cards then you, have a fast clock and recycle dead unplowed creatures
- Dredge: UWr no specific red cards v.s. Extirpate (UWb)
Extirpate wins again
- Show&Tell/Reanimator/Hypergenesis/Progenitus/Emrakul: UWr no answers v.s. Diabolic Edict (and/or Extirpate)
Edict is your potential out if they only have 1 creature out.
- Bant/New Horizons/Bant Survival: REB (UWr) v.s. Extirpate (UWb)
REB wins this one unless Survival resolves, then Extirpate becomes relevant.
- Combo: REB (UWr) v.s. Extirpate (UWb)
REB hits cantrips which is highly important, but Extirpate can mess up dark rituals and LEDs potentially winning the game. Commonly, you want to Chant a ritual, then Extirpate the ritual and either causing them to fizzle if they have ritual in hand or lead to weaker AdN flips.
REB is dead against Belcher (non-blue combo decks) but red does provide sweepers. Black has the equivalent EPlague against goblin tokens for the same cost as Firespout and 1 more than Pyroclasm (which is outdated card in Legacy now)
Hope this evaluation of the decklist and strategy sparks some interest, a hybrid of wishstill and Knappstill. I hope the Landstill community keep up hope. The format has changed but I think it's a much better format for Landstill than it used to be. Combo is 0.5 turns slower now, and Reanimator is weakened a little. Landstill is one of those decks that can handle the new influx of Show and Tell decks (via counters), Humility, Jace, Cunning Wish edicts, and now ScepterChant which says they can't win either unless it's Iona naming white.
But keep in mind, this is my list that works best for me, I'm sharing it, and it's always evolving. Thing lovely about Landstill is that there's no best list, just a one that you're comfortable and the one that has a metagame strategy built in it. Landstill is one of the highly tunable decks (compared against other decks e.g. Counterbalance, goblins, merfolks which cannot really change their maindeck much without losing functionality).
I feel that UWb Cunningstill (with scepters now) has a good shot against the big portion of the meta. Extirpate itself improves the Loam, Lands, Combo, Mirror, matchups and EPlague gives you a good chance against goblins/merfolks/elves. If the meta is more Merfolk/blue infested, I would pick up UWr Knappstill. Cunningstill is more diverse in answers but less direct and slower than UWr Knappstill. Once again, a matter of playstyle and metagame choices. Time to discuss!
It seems like there is not enough land in the deck to consistently draw hands and not mulligan, especially with 4 colors (kinda). I only run 6 colorless mana producers, with 25 lands, and I still dont see colors consistenly enough. Also, while standstill is an amazing card, it seems to be dead in half of the matchups. I would seriously consider lowering the Standstill count, most likely to 3, and adding land #25.
Also, with the threat or Emrakul, Iona, doesnt Karakas become an all star in those matches? With White being the secondary color in the deck, I would think there should be at least 1 (MB or SB). Thoughts?
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What happened to Sensei's Divining Top? I always thought it was godsend. But it seems to fall out of favor.
SDT is comparable to Cunning Wish, as both provide card-quality. If you fetch the gamebreaking bomb with Cunning Wish, Cunning Wish obviously provides much more card-quality than SDT. However, for example, if you need a land, Cunning Wish gives you zero card-quality.
SDT also provides card-quality at a much earlier stage of the game than Cunning Wish.
I'm personally really fascinated by that card: SDT. I'm working on a SDT build, maybe I will post it.
Last edited by Tea; 08-20-2010 at 03:09 PM.
"I see their moral dilemmas. I see their raw courage. I see their self-sacrifice. I see our victory." (Keep watch)
The strength of one. The courage of ten. (honor Guard)
I can basicly agree 101% with this statement.
24 Lands (or 23 + Eternal Dragon) seems to be the right number (at least for me the 2. option workes pretty fine), being able to survive multiple Wastelands,Sinkholes,Vindicates or Stifles. The only time I really got screwd was against a Rock stylish deck with 4 Extirpates to remove Duals or Fetchlands and a full package of Wasteland, Sinkhole and Vindicate.
Karakas is a fine card, but I personal never got the feeling that I'm in a situation where my last hope is Karakas. Against Combo Decks playing Show and Tell or other stuff to sneak Emrakul in play I'd rather try to counter the relevant spells (i.e. Show and Tell, Sneack Attack, Doomsday (with Shelldock Island), etc.) or kill/ bouncel Emrakul via WoG, Humility o Jace.
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Crz87, I love that you're putting your own spin on the deck. After all, we all need to build the deck to fit the way that we play to make it the most comfortable for us. I'm going to have to agree with OneBigSquirrelGod though. Your manabase has officially entered into greedy. I would definitely cut out the Tropical Island since its only use it the Grip SB and maybe to bump up EE. Whatever you need to take out with Grip you can usually take out with EE save for like Aluren or something that you should be Counterspelling anyways. I agree with you 100% that Humility is a crutch that Landstill players do not have to lean on, but playing 1 of them shouldn't really hurt much since you probably won't encounter it unless you want to.
Tea, SDT certainly has merits in Landstill builds, however I feel that at least my deck is SOO pressed for slots that every single card in my list has proven itself to be worthy of the 60. I have found that Jace, TMS basically does whatever you would want out of SDT but 100x better. The advantage of SDT is that you can drop it in the early game and use it to set up your game state to get to where Jace, TMS and your powerful 4 drops can make a difference. I don't feel that SDT is not worth a slot because I find that I can survive the early game with proper mulligans and tight plays. This is another situation where I feel a card is a crutch that you'll find you do not need when you play correctly. But just to be clear, I'm talking about builds that are not running Counterbalance, because in that scenario, obviously the Divining Top has a very clear cut job.
I atleast have seem to hit a wall, creatively speaking with regards to UWx Landstill. The latest tech I have been running was Envelop in my SB. It pretty much sealed up every combo deck in the format but I am seeing far less combo lately and almost every other round is some kind of mana denial aggro control deck. Landstill vs an unknown meta is becoming increasingly difficult to win with. It seems aggro and aggro control decks have gained an incredible number of cards recently while the latest gain control has really recieved was Path to Exile and that card has cost me more than one game over the last few months. Combo hasn't gained anything huge or unbeatable but there numerous combo decks in the format all of whitch require their own preparation to beat. (Although Envelop really hits like everything out there if you sit and think about it for awhile).
Our tools are becoming outdated and outclassed. Spell pierce has gained alot of main deck popularity and paired with Wasteland has denied me numerous top 8's recently. I don't believe Landstill is gone by any means but Wasteland has practically become Strip Mine in the current Legacy format; you are punished for playing non basics and then Iona rapes you for playing single color decks or single color removal decks. Any build can be tweaked to beat anything in the format but gone seems to be the days where you could beat every deck in the format. Personally I am trying to work on a build that runs a full sweeper such as Disk in a UW build. It seems solid but also too slow at times. Unfortunately unless you pretty much know what you are going to be playing VS Landstill is becoming a poor meta choice.
It had been a frustrating 2-3 months now playing Landstill. I am interested in seeing what you do with a UW Disk build; when we spoke briefly at the GP I mentioned that at my local before the event I had taken an experimental list with 2 MD Disk and finished 3-1, losing in the last round of swiss to Zoo. Sadly for me my locals do not go into T4, so no ability to get more sampling in. Disk is incredibly strong but also a lot more fragile than say, Wrath of God or even Humility, and with Qasali Pridemage /// Krosan Grip, it was awkward to cast and then hope for the best. Although the card is powerful, I am a little torn on teetering the future of this archetype on it.
Looking back, if I could do it again, my biggest problem was deciding where Disk should be in the 75, perhaps if was a mistake putting it in the MD (especially against Zoo, I had way too many 4cc cards as compared to the previous builds I was playing, and got destroyed before I could stabilize). Would definitely be a good choice against Show and Tell, etc. Personally, I'm just waiting for control to gain something that is playable outside of Standard.
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I have sold all of my cards, but now I plan to go back into magic. My deck of choice is Landstill.
Money is a big issue though. So I'm looking for ways to make the deck cheaper.
One of my ideas is to replace that lone Elspeth with the fourth DoJ. 2x Humility ensure that DoJ is a lategame bomb of the same powerlevel as Elspeth. My main board sweeper package is 1 WoG + 2 Humility. As Humility may get worse post board I plan to put Firespout, Perish or something like that into my SB as alterntive sweepers.
What about Sacred Mesa?
Any suggesttions? I haven't bought the cards yet.
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Tropical island/Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Plain
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Decree of Justice
3 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
2 Humility
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
"I see their moral dilemmas. I see their raw courage. I see their self-sacrifice. I see our victory." (Keep watch)
The strength of one. The courage of ten. (honor Guard)
This. Round after round you're facing the Wasteland/Vial decks, and I needn't to explain how painful it is, being wastelanded twice, unable to hit your 4th land, sitting with all these 4cc bombs and even if you manage you're getting dazed or pierced. I lost numerous games to Wasteland/cheap counters. Seriously, you need like 7-8 landdrops now to cast any 4cc spell. You're not getting there, either you can't topdeck the lands forever, or die long before that.
My thoughs go in direction of revamping the manabase to run basics only (or 2-3 duals at most). That requires some sacrifices in the card choices, obviously dropping Standstill (and counterspells for its double U cost) turning it into some kind of UW Ultimate Walker. You are immune to Wasteland, but basics don't exactly solve issues when you really want duals. Perhaps it'll work, I haven't yet tried the approach in tournaments though.I don't believe Landstill is gone by any means but Wasteland has practically become Strip Mine in the current Legacy format; you are punished for playing non basics and then Iona rapes you for playing single color decks or single color removal decks. Any build can be tweaked to beat anything in the format but gone seems to be the days where you could beat every deck in the format. Personally I am trying to work on a build that runs a full sweeper such as Disk in a UW build. It seems solid but also too slow at times. Unfortunately unless you pretty much know what you are going to be playing VS Landstill is becoming a poor meta choice.
I've been messing with my build on and off and I'm in a place that I think I like as far as things go with the deck. I need to have some more testing before I'm satisfied but this is what I've been kicking around.
Instant[20]
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery[6]
1 Day of Judgment
2 Decree of Justice
2 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God
Enchantment[5]
2 Humility
3 Standstill
Artifact[3]
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
Planswalker[3]
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Land[23]
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Volcanic Island
I know its a little lighter on land than is usually preferred but I always found myself not drawing into enough business with landstill. I really like vindicate in the main because it helps the control mirror and is great removal all around. I'm not huge on jace so there's a 1:1 split with FoF which I like just as much. I've been iffy with this because of how hard it is to just get things out against anything running blue but I feel comfortable with this build and it feels pretty tight as is.
I think it's interesting that you prefer FOF over another Jace TMS, because I went in the opposite direction with my list. I cut my last FOF for my 2nd Jace TMS. My reasoning was that both of these cards are 4 drops and both are amazing topdecks. I find that Jace is an engine to drive through the rest of the game and will win the game on its own. Where I feel that FOF is just a card that all I would want it to find is my Jace.
Any particular reasons why you like the way you have it?
What match-ups does jace the mind sculpter shore up?
what match-ups does fact or fiction shore up?
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