Saito stalling at GP

[Bardo]

It's an awkward situation, since on the one hand you don't want to be seen as a rules-lawyering d-bag; on the other, you want to get on with things; on your third hand, you definitely don't want your opponent to gain an undeserved advantage by intentionally fucking with the clock.

This was going through my head when I called a judge for my opponent's slow-play in R3 of SCG Seattle. I had previously told him twice that if he didn't speed up, I was calling a judge. He was playing TES and clearly overwhelmed by the decision tree and said something like "this is really complex." I told him to play a easier deck -- you don't get a pass because you have to make a ton of decisions.

That was the round I countered an Ad Nauseum with Spellstutter Sprite (which I'll admit has no bearing on this discussion, but was really cool anyway).

[Eddy Wally]

It's an awkward situation, since on the one hand you don't want to be seen as a rules-lawyering d-bag; on the other, you want to get on with things; on your third hand, you definitely don't want your opponent to gain an undeserved advantage by intentionally fucking with the clock.

This was going through my head when I called a judge for my opponent's slow-play in R3 of SCG Seattle. I had previously told him twice that if he didn't speed up, I was calling a judge. He was playing TES and clearly overwhelmed by the decision tree and said something like "this is really complex." I told him to play a easier deck -- you don't get a pass because you have to make a ton of decisions.

That was the round I countered an Ad Nauseum with Spellstutter Sprite (which I'll admit has no bearing on this discussion, but was really cool anyway).

This may be slightly off topic, but was the opponent a newbie to the format, or just a veteran used to playing a less complex deck?

He's one of Frogboy's MtG friends, so I'm guessing he's a decent player in other formats, but new to Legacy. - Bardo

[ummon]

This may be slightly off topic, but was the opponent a newbie to the format, or just a veteran used to playing a less complex deck?

He's one of Frogboy's MtG friends, so I'm guessing he's a decent player, but was new to Legacy. - Bardo

Ahh in that case I would have gone easy on him. :D But then again I'm probably too nice to people...

[Eddy Wally]

I usually go easy on people who are new to the format (new blood is always good), but if he was playing so slow that the game won't end in time, I can see where your frustration came from.

In my 14 years of magic I've only been confronted with stalling once, and that was on a prerelease. Neither I nor my opponent were playing for the win in the last round, but one of us could win a single booster (12th place or something, I forget, this was Oddissey). I had calculated that I could have taken the booster with a draw, and that the opponent needed the win. He had arrived at exactly the opposite conclusion. It goes 1-1, and the third round could go either way. He starts to play slower and slower, but given the circumstances I saw no need to call the judge, because I know him somewhat and I didn't want him to get disqualified for shooting himself in the foot. The game goes to time and ends in a draw, and I tell him he really needed the win to take that small prize. Bastard gets angry with me. In hindsight, I should have called the judge.

[Michael Keller]

I usually go easy on people who are new to the format (new blood is always good), but if he was playing so slow that the game won't end in time, I can see where your frustration came from.

In my 14 years of magic I've only been confronted with stalling once, and that was on a prerelease. Neither I nor my opponent were playing for the win in the last round, but one of us could win a single booster (12th place or something, I forget, this was Oddissey). I had calculated that I could have taken the booster with a draw, and that the opponent needed the win. He had arrived at exactly the opposite conclusion. It goes 1-1, and the third round could go either way. He starts to play slower and slower, but given the circumstances I saw no need to call the judge, because I know him somewhat and I didn't want him to get disqualified for shooting himself in the foot. The game goes to time and ends in a draw, and I tell him he really needed the win to take that small prize. Bastard gets angry with me. In hindsight, I should have called the judge.

I never go easy on my opponents, no matter how new they are in large events. I used to get my ass monkey-stomped years ago trying to get very good at this game, and I paid a lot of money and spent a lot of time doing it. It's only fair the pain gets dished out two-fold; it's the only way to learn in pressure-filled scenarios in a legitimate tournament situation.

[Anusien]

It's an awkward situation, since on the one hand you don't want to be seen as a rules-lawyering d-bag; on the other, you want to get on with things; on your third hand, you definitely don't want your opponent to gain an undeserved advantage by intentionally fucking with the clock.

You lose fifteen million points for not saying "on the gripping hand".

There are two parts to the story here,
A) Call a judge. No, seriously, even if you're playing Saito. Even if your opponent is Barry Allen, he might be taking too much time to make a decision. And yes, not presenting your deck after three minutes of sideboarding is Slow Play. If you don't call a judge, you don't really have an excuse.
B) Not saying anybody is wrong, but I've watched matches while watching the clock. Players have no idea how much time goes by. This is not to say that anybody's story is wrong, just that the clock does weird things when you're bored or involved in a tough decision or amped up on adrenalin because you're battling a future Hall of Famer.

[aTn]

You lose fifteen million points for not saying "on the gripping hand".

There are two parts to the story here,
A) Call a judge. No, seriously, even if you're playing Saito. Even if your opponent is Barry Allen, he might be taking too much time to make a decision. And yes, not presenting your deck after three minutes of sideboarding is Slow Play. If you don't call a judge, you don't really have an excuse.
B) Not saying anybody is wrong, but I've watched matches while watching the clock. Players have no idea how much time goes by. This is not to say that anybody's story is wrong, just that the clock does weird things when you're bored or involved in a tough decision or amped up on adrenalin because you're battling a future Hall of Famer.

Agreed about time seeming to slow down when your opponent is idle, but in the case of Saito, he was clearly trying to maximize the time he took for each turn/play.

Looking at Saito reading Jace TMS twice, touching his Wasteland on about 4 occasions as if he was considering to activate it and so on made me feel sorry for his opponent. That being said, he should have woken up the judge who was next to Saito.

All this to say that in my opinion, slow play should be defined both by a time limit and by the perceived intent of a player. In that case, it wouldn't have taken Matlock to convince the judge that Saito was intentionnally trying to use time to change the match's outcome.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I never go easy on my opponents, no matter how new they are in large events. I used to get my ass monkey-stomped years ago trying to get very good at this game, and I paid a lot of money and spent a lot of time doing it. It's only fair the pain gets dished out two-fold; it's the only way to learn in pressure-filled scenarios in a legitimate tournament situation.

I don't take it easy on people who first-pick things like Liliana's Caress in draft.
I want to win. Just because they're not as experienced (there is no way to say this without sounding like an egomaniac, is there?) or as good as I am doesn't mean I should feel bad. I'd feel like crap if I lost out on top 8 because I was giving a new player a break.
Slightly more on topic, the guy could've called a judge, but he didn't. Is there a penalty for calling a judge and the judge saying that the opponent is doing nothing wrong?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm never going to understand this, "You didn't do everything possible not to be cheated= You deserved to have your shit stolen" mentality.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I'm never going to understand this, "You didn't do everything possible not to be cheated= You deserved to have your shit stolen" mentality.

If you can't look after yourself, who IS going to look after you?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you can't look after yourself, who IS going to look after you?

Um, society. This is why we don't live in caves and shit in the woods. If a burglar shows up to your house and begins beating you with a socket wrench, the cops don't shrug and tell you to take care of your own problems. If a hurricane blows through town and knocks over your house, the EMTs don't spout Ayn Rand isntead of saving your ass.

If I see someone cheating you, I'm going to get a judge. Because I'm not a douchebag.

Maybe some people need a little lesson.

[Anusien]

Agreed about time seeming to slow down when your opponent is idle, but in the case of Saito, he was clearly trying to maximize the time he took for each turn/play.

Looking at Saito reading Jace TMS twice, touching his Wasteland on about 4 occasions as if he was considering to activate it and so on made me feel sorry for his opponent. That being said, he should have woken up the judge who was next to Saito.

All this to say that in my opinion, slow play should be defined both by a time limit and by the perceived intent of a player. In that case, it wouldn't have taken Matlock to convince the judge that Saito was intentionnally trying to use time to change the match's outcome.

I wasn't there. I've never watched Saito play. I have no idea if Saito was playing slowly intentionally or unintentionally. But most people in this thread don't seem to watch much Magic for things beyond strategic content. If you watch a match being played and look past the strategy, you'll see this sort of behavior is completely common. Most people don't sit there staring at the board like a statue when they play. They manipulate game objects.

@IBA: Obviously, just because you don't call a judge doesn't license your opponent to cheat you. But I've had dozens of players come up to me and say, "I think my opponent stalled me out of a match." And the answer is a polite version of, "You should have told me this 20 minutes ago, when it was still going on."

[ummon]

Um, society. This is why we don't live in caves and shit in the woods. If a burglar shows up to your house and begins beating you with a socket wrench, the cops don't shrug and tell you to take care of your own problems. If a hurricane blows through town and knocks over your house, the EMTs don't spout Ayn Rand isntead of saving your ass.

If I see someone cheating you, I'm going to get a judge. Because I'm not a douchebag.

Maybe some people need a little lesson.

Well with the direction in which we are heading I wouldn't be surprised if the EMTs started spouting Ayn Rand...

[Pastorofmuppets]

Um, society. This is why we don't live in caves and shit in the woods. If a burglar shows up to your house and begins beating you with a socket wrench, the cops don't shrug and tell you to take care of your own problems. If a hurricane blows through town and knocks over your house, the EMTs don't spout Ayn Rand isntead of saving your ass.

If I see someone cheating you, I'm going to get a judge. Because I'm not a douchebag.

Maybe some people need a little lesson.

you're taking this off the deep end a little bit, IBA. Obviously, there are more players than judges. If someone beats you with a socket wrench in your own house (despite being a weapon of questionable effect), calling out for help might help a little bit.
If Saito takes 10 minutes to wipe his ass with your playset of foil Mindsculptors, please note that it will take about a minute or two to call a judge over. They've got other people to keep track of, too. You're not the only person on the planet, and therefore they can't be making sure that you aren't getting Saito'd into next week for the entire 50 minutes of a match. I can say with about 95% certainty that the judge won't tear your head off and suck out your brain juices. In fact, I'm pretty sure that they will assist you in a timely manner. Even if they'd only give your opponent a warning, it should hopefully make them think twice about giving you another chance to call over a judge.

tl;dr: I enjoy Ayn Rand. But you're off the deep end a little bit. Maybe the people around you are all douchebags. Unless you're in a vegetative state, you can say, "hey, judge," you should be fully capable of getting a judge to call you over, instead of expecting someone else to do it for you, or for a judge to be psychic. That's just being lazy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

you're taking this off the deep end a little bit, IBA. Obviously, there are more players than judges. If someone beats you with a socket wrench in your own house (despite being a weapon of questionable effect), calling out for help might help a little bit. If Saito takes 10 minutes to wipe his ass with your playset of foil Mindsculptors, please note that it will take about a minute or two to call a judge over. They've got other people to keep track of, too. You're not the only person on the planet, and therefore they can't be making sure that you aren't getting Saito'd into next week for the entire 50 minutes of a match. I can say with about 95% certainty that the judge won't tear your head off and suck out your brain juices. In fact, I'm pretty sure that they will assist you in a timely manner. Even if they'd only give your opponent a warning, it should hopefully make them think twice about giving you another chance to call over a judge.

tl;dr: I enjoy Ayn Rand. But you're off the deep end a little bit. Maybe the people around you are all douchebags. Unless you're in a vegetative state, you can say, "hey, judge," and therefore should be fully capable of getting a judge over, instead of expecting someone else to do it for you, or for a judge to be psychic. That's just being lazy.

1) Ayn Rand is a talentless hack and a failure as a human being.

2) A decent sized socket wrench will completely fuck up your day.

3) Yet again, whether or not someone did everything possible to avoid something unfortunate being done to them doesn't mean that they should be blamed for the malicious acts of another. In this case it seems a judge was already at the table, a situation in which no inexperienced player is going to tell the judge anything because they assume the judge is doing their job. But if the judge isn't, and other more inexperienced players are watching it is their duty to correct the situation.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Yet again, whether or not someone did everything possible to avoid something unfortunate being done to them doesn't mean that they should be blamed for the malicious acts of another. In this case it seems a judge was already at the table, a situation in which no inexperienced player is going to tell the judge anything because they assume the judge is doing their job. But if the judge isn't, and other more inexperienced players are watching it is their duty to correct the situation.

Once again, going back to trusting yourself. Just saying to the judge, "hey buddy, is it just me or is this guy moving kind of slow?"
It's not your fault that you got Saito'd in the first place. It is your fault that you let yourself get Saito'd when all you had to do was ask the judge what his thoughts were. Most players don't want to interrupt a match when it's drawing that much of a crowd. Everyone has that same, "I might be wrong" complex inherently.
So, the judge is slightly at fault for being a little lenient to Saito
Saito is smart for being able to get away with it
His opponent was dumb enough to let Saito get away with it, and maybe he could've squeezed out a win had he had the sand to say something, instead of just assuming that everything was peachy.
What don't you understand?
Also, I accept that Rand's writing doesn't appeal to everyone.

[Skeggi]

If you can't look after yourself, who IS going to look after you?

You're one of those American militia gun-nuts aren't you?

[Pastorofmuppets]

You're one of those American militia gun-nuts aren't you?

No. I'm one of those responsible Americans (they do exist!) Also, I live in New Jersey. We pretty much can't have guns unless we prove we can shove them into our small intestine first.
Although guns are fun. Very fun.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

how did Saito's stalling get us on the topic of guns? is someone going to make him play faster at gun-point?
Just picture someone calling:
"JUDGE! Dredd"

[Sims]

how did Saito's stalling get us on the topic of guns? is someone going to make him play faster at gun-point?
Just picture someone calling:
"JUDGE! Dredd"

Because it seems to be a commonly held opinion in Europe that everyone who wants to protect and look after themselves is a Militia Gun-Nut despite there being ways of doing so that have nothing to do with firearms.