SCG and its not-as-lousy-as-WotC coverage

[Zombie]

Understood. I don't find that irritating. Our opinions are different and there is a good chance that neither of our opinions will change.

Not a big deal.

It would be a lot less irritating if the names didn't suck :P

[TsumiBand]

They're trying to homogenize Standard and Legacy names, that's the problem. As Standard deck names, they're fine. Mardu Midrange can be expected to contain cards of that clan, play abilities associated with that clan and more or less employ strategies promoted by that clan. The name accurately conveys information from the speaker to the listener. I assume the hope is, that by reusing Standard names for Legacy decks, they can carry over their much larger Standard audience into the Legacy coverage, in the mistaken hope that the familiar names will aid in their understanding. The problem is that Sultai Delver does not aid the viewer in understanding what it is they are watching. The deck does not contain cards of that clan, does not play abilities associated with that clan and does not more or less employ strategies promoted by that clan. Promoting misunderstanding and ultimately failed expectations is not what a broadcasting outfit should be aiming to do. Relying on coincidence that two decks share the same colors does not entitle them to refer to them as the same.

Kind of?

Except, like, as Legacy players we also do dumb shit like call decks "Affinity" and "Bant" when they don't contain high numbers of identifying cards from those mechanics/shards/identifiers either.

Like you can't tell me that the mere inclusion of 4 Noble Hierarch makes a deck "a Bant deck" or that 4 Nimble Mongoose is enough to call a deck "Thresh" or "Threshold" or "T-Hold" or "Toonces". If the names need to point to more than just the colors they're in, then Bant decks were only truly Bant-y when they had a full boat of Hierarchs, Rhox War Monks, a couple of Rafiq, and whatever else was techy from Shards that ended up in Legacy (I bet someone somewhere rocked the Bant Charm, and I bet it was awesome when they did).

If we apply that thinking to newer decks, if a 4 of is all it takes to keep a deck in a clan/shard, the bouquet of Treasure Cruise that are making the rounds in Blue decks around the world is apparently 'Sultai enough' for labeling purposes.

I say double-up on the use of the word Delve, personally - look how elegant:

• "What did you take to PTQ Branson, brotozoa?"
• "Delving Delver of course! It wrecks everything in the meta, brotox!"
• "I'm really glad we're talking this way, Nicol Brolas!"

This is forest-for-trees stuff after a while, and while names for things matter -- Fedora 17 I'm looking at you -- it feels like a bummer to spend so much time not talking about the game and more time arguing over whether Dega or Mardu is the better name for a three color deck you'll never see in Legacy.

[tescrin]

And most overblown ridiculous comment goes to....

'Cause I was serious. You are a garbage.

I just hope Slut Delver catches on and WotC has to deal with Slut decks for all of eternity. I'd also be happy with Tumor Delver or Jetski Delver.

[iamajellydonut]

Jetski Delver.

This is easily my favorite. In all seriousness, given that "Patriot" is a pretty weak name, I would love to call it Jetski Delver.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

This is forest-for-trees stuff after a while, and while names for things matter -- Fedora 17 I'm looking at you -- it feels like a bummer to spend so much time not talking about the game and more time arguing over whether Dega or Mardu is the better name for a three color deck you'll never see in Legacy.

Perfect. Then lets don't care and call the thing BUG.

[lordofthepit]

Legacy is the format where things are organically adopted if the player base likes it. Standard is the format where things are forced upon the players.

I'm all for trying to simplify deck names if it makes it easier to comprehend for a newer player, which is why I accept the likes of RUG Delver or BUG Delver instead of the more flavorful Canadian Threshold or Team America, but obviously, these new wedge names serve none of those purposes (besides possibly the BWR wedge). In this case, it feels like WOTC is trying to force us to learn Klingon because "OMG THINK OF THE NEW PLAYERS", but fuck you, I've never seen Star Wars in my life and this is just making things more confusing for the established players without simplifying things at all for newer ones.

[PirateKing]

Kind of?

That was just a explanation as to why these Standard names are being used by SCG and why they are not an effective way of relaying conversation. That's what it comes down to really, I have an idea, I make noises, you heard noises, and if you have the same idea I have, communication success! And the fact is that these Legacy decks have names, names older than then the cards largely defining the deck in some cases. Pretty nondescript names in a lot of cases. But names that get used, and names that when searched upon online, retrieve the information you were looking for. And if you search for Jeskai Delver, you get a crap return.

But personally, this is Legacy, we're magic eskimos, we have our 30 names for the same deck. We intercommunicate just fine. The names have history and meaning unknown to outsiders. We honor our combo ancestors by paying homage to the Breakfast Cereal. Our inside joke nicknames are the official deck names. These pages are thick with tradition, and we're watching as outsiders bulldoze it to make room for a strip mall or middle income condos or something. If only they had asked, we could have told them, "How you say, play many spells! Gather great storm, very epic!"

[Ace/Homebrew]

It feels like WOTC is trying to force us to learn Klingon... but fuck you, I've never seen Star Wars in my life.

[Michael Keller]

I honestly don't understand why everyone is getting wound up about the names of decks and businesses like Star City slapping labels on them. The truth is they've been doing this for some time, just on a smaller scale. Folks on the internet forum community are well-versed in what the names of specific decks are based on their origin, creator or master pilot(s), so it should come as no surprise that a deck called "Strawberry Shortcake" on these forums still gets the "Imperial Painter" monicker by Star City. Same thing with the ever-so-tired "ANT" versus "TES" naming principal: they'll call it whatever they feel is appropriate to their uninformed or ignorant audiences to attract viewership.

It's odd, because it feels like The Source is a breeding pool at times for fresh ideas (or at least tournament reports sporting fresh ideas), which wind up doing well in an Open, which in turn get others to play those decks and do well, which in turn creates a naming evolution to where the people who've played the deck forever or helped create/invent/perfect/master the deck no longer see it as their own. The deck takes the spotlight and it's in the public eye where Star City has the monopoly.

Unfortunately, it's just the world we live in.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Also, and that's another reason why I oppose the Jeksai Merde, I really start to hate how I'm losing more and more of my ground.
When I started playing Legacy back in 2006 or so, it was becasue our casual group was long dead and it was either tournament Magic or no Magic at all. Needless to say, I disliked many aspects of the Magic scene, one of them being the silly slang. It's quite obviously more spread amongst the younger players, so when I finally abandoned Exnteded (and lately ceased to work in the shop thus completely getting rid of the Standard players base), it was really relieving to communicate in a bit more normal way.
This Jeskia, Tumor, Femur, Ghabzan nonsense is 2006 all over again, and that's what I dislike. The unending penetrations of non-Eternal aspects into Eternal is what annoys me and might be a final nail in my Magic carrier's coffin.

Seriously, the nice old cards I'd love to play with are outdated and will never return. Look, Mystic Enforcer is not even in my sig anymore, so how would you expect to see it in deck list? Ok, something something power creep; this has little to do with community. But there are things like this whole wedge names affair, that once again add to convergence of the two (or three, counting Modern) worlds, the Eternal and non-Eternal.

So, while the Jeskai naming might seem silly, and the opposition agiant these trends might look silly even more, it's not so groundless, at least for me. It's the very same why there are no f-words allowed in gentlemen's club, not even past midnight on toilet, cause it will lower the standards for the moment and this will only continue, slipery slope blah blah blah.
Every space you'll disembody will be immediatelly occupied, every concession you'll make will be misused against you. So yeah, I will oppose this sultai-bulshit even though that opposition seem silly and even though it may look futile. If it saves the Legacy how I like it for just one anoher day, it's worthy the effort.

I simply don't want the Eternal to converge with Temporal. And the reason are not the wedge names, in fact it's quite the opposite - I don't want to use/hear/read Slutai Delver or w/e the other wedges are called, simply becasue it's another penetration of Temporal into Eternal with all of its bad standards (pun intended): the inability to play the game technically correctly, the impatience of small kids that start their untap phase while you're resolving your first spell, the wannabe-pros with their first facial hair who act rough while they smoke weed hidden behind garbage cans, the boys standing out of their chairs for the alpha strike... No, thanks. NIMBY.

Keep your modern standards out of my Eternal.

[TsumiBand]

People who associate Klingons with Star Wars are without honor, and have no place in Sto'vo'Kor.

@Bed Decks -- I feel you, I do, but unfortunately I think this is part-and-parcel of a different issue altogether (which would quickly derail this thread, so I won't... oh, wait, derail?!) and so I suspect that such shenanigans will become stat quo. I've been kicking around an essay that no one will ever read about the changes I've made on a personal level with my relationship to this game, and part of the result of those changes is that stuff like this really just does not faze me anymore. Maybe I'll actually write it down (type it out...) and spark 4 posts worth of discussion on the subject.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

People who associate Klingons with Star Wars are without honor, and have no place in Sto'vo'Kor.

@Bed Decks -- I feel you, I do, but unfortunately I think this is part-and-parcel of a different issue altogether (which would quickly derail this thread, so I won't... oh, wait, derail?!) and so I suspect that such shenanigans will become stat quo. I've been kicking around an essay that no one will ever read about the changes I've made on a personal level with my relationship to this game, and part of the result of those changes is that stuff like this really just does not faze me anymore. Maybe I'll actually write it down (type it out...) and spark 4 posts worth of discussion on the subject.

It'll be brilliant! I'd be interested!
Btw, I got similar idea in mind, but as long as Murican is not my native language and moreover nobody would care, I never wrote anything...

[TheAardvark]

To sum it up:
So while your idea that the change is irrelevant (an idea that seems to be a minor opinion) is legitimate, my idea that this change is relevant (and annoying) seems to be illegitimate. Clearly we're discussing on a different level, coz it seems like one of us is somehow superior human being to the other one.
So while my stance (oppose the change) is illegitimate, your stance (addopt the change) is legitimate. Clearly we're discussing on a different level, coz it seems like one of us is somehow superior human being to the other one.
So while my unwillingness to be a part of demographic I dislike (however silly or arrogant stance it may be) is illegitimate, your mentoring of my person is legitimate. Clearly, you speak to me from some moral heights and this reminds me of bad religious talks; "Son, don't exalt yourself above your humble Standard brothers."

I actually wasn't attempting to question the legitimacy of your stance or exalt my own; I was simply attempting to understand the vehemence behind the commentary. It's clear to me that, though I have read the reasoning behind opposition to the changes, I simply don't understand why it matters; again, I have read the reasons, but the reasons don't apply or really make sense to me, for the most part.

As I said earlier, there is a disconnect here within the context of the discussion. I have always found nonfunctional deck names to be irritating at the very least (the proliferation of cereal deck names in the late 90s, for example), so I admit to being biased due to that; I am sure it is central to my initial confusion at the backlash for something I thought was irrelevant.

And all of this you verbalized in a manner similar to what one infamous forum member uses. Well played sir, have my like.

I am not intentionally mimicking anyone, I can assure you. However, I am curious who you are referencing, if you would tell me.

I simply don't want the Eternal to converge with Temporal. And the reason are not the wedge names, in fact it's quite the opposite - I don't want to use/hear/read Slutai Delver or w/e the other wedges are called, simply becasue it's another penetration of Temporal into Eternal with all of its bad standards (pun intended): the inability to play the game technically correctly, the impatience of small kids that start their untap phase while you're resolving your first spell, the wannabe-pros with their first facial hair who act rough while they smoke weed hidden behind garbage cans, the boys standing out of their chairs for the alpha strike... No, thanks. NIMBY.

"Legacy players" make tons of mistakes on stream (both via misplays and doing things in incorrect order, etc.), just like "Standard players", so vilifying them for that seems disingenuous.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I actually wasn't attempting to question the legitimacy of your stance or exalt my own; I was simply attempting to understand the vehemence behind the commentary. It's clear to me that, though I have read the reasoning behind opposition to the changes, I simply don't understand why it matters; again, I have read the reasons, but the reasons don't apply or really make sense to me, for the most part.

So you're once again questioning the legitimacy of my view, although this time indirectly. While your vehemence in being indiferent should be fine for all of the community, I'm the one who should defend my stance? It doesn't matter to you, thus it shouldn't matter to anyone, or how else should I understand several of your previous comments?

As I said earlier, there is a disconnect here within the context of the discussion. I have always found nonfunctional deck names to be irritating at the very least (the proliferation of cereal deck names in the late 90s, for example), so I admit to being biased due to that; I am sure it is central to my initial confusion at the backlash for something I thought was irrelevant.

So the Slutai Breakfeast is way better, right?

I am not intentionally mimicking anyone, I can assure you. However, I am curious who you are referencing, if you would tell me.

IBA.

"Legacy players" make tons of mistakes on stream (both via misplays and doing things in incorrect order, etc.), just like "Standard players", so vilifying them for that seems disingenuous.

I'm not speaking about mistakes, we're all prone to them. I speak about potheads with little to no grasp how the game works, about kids that attack during your upkeep, etc. all this stuff. Is this extreme? Definitely. However it's mostly asociated with Type II scene and as such, every concession to Standard (be it even anything that silly as names convention) should be frowned upon.

Then there are other reasons why I dislike this new quirk, but they are all sorted out up there in othr users' posts, so I won't be repeating them.

Enough on this matter, it might look like I care, which would be pretty funny considering I'm selling most of my stuff and my real-life MtG experiences are reduced to a weekly-per-month.

[TheAardvark]

So you're once again questioning the legitimacy of my view, although this time indirectly. While your vehemence in being indiferent should be fine for all of the community, I'm the one who should defend my stance? It doesn't matter to you, thus it shouldn't matter to anyone, or how else should I understand several of your previous comments?

Sorry I was unclear, because I wasn't trying to question the legitimacy of your view, either directly or indirectly. I was just trying to say that I just don't get it (and, by extension, just because I don't get something doesn't mean it is illegitimate).

So the Slutai Breakfeast is way better, right?

Zero sum, really.

IBA.

Got it.

I'm not speaking about mistakes, we're all prone to them. I speak about potheads with little to no grasp how the game works, about kids that attack during your upkeep, etc. all this stuff? Is this extreme? Definitely. However it's mostly asociated with Type II scene and as such, every concession to Standard (be it even anything that silly as names convention) should be frowned upon.

Ah. Well, I haven't really experienced the potheads not knowing how the game works (aside from brand new players), and I typically give kids a free ride to a certain degree (if they are newer players, anyway), but I understand how such things would frustrate someone.

Enough on this matter, it might look like I care, which would be pretty funny considering I'm selling most of my stuff and my real-life MtG experiences are reduced to a weekly-per-month.

Fair enough.

[Tylert]

Counterpoint: The shards and most Ravnica guilds did not sound bad to me when I heard them the first time. These Klans? They do.

I do agree :) However, I don't care. I'll keep calling RUG delver RUG delver :)
I think the idea of having names for the wedges is a good idea. It was badly implemented thought :) And too hastily for sure.
It won't change the fact that i'll still love the game.

[Zombie]

It'll be brilliant! I'd be interested!
Btw, I got similar idea in mind, but as long as Murican is not my native language and moreover nobody would care, I never wrote anything...

You still haven't made the We Love TsumiBand thread.

[Dice_Box]

From my point of view, all this change means to me is a do not read SCG and do not watch SCG. No great loss. I doubt anyone here is going to start a petition to change thread names and I am willing to bet all the old hats are just going to keep talking like we always have.

Got to admit though, taking to standard players, more than once I have had to ask them "Can you repeat that in English?". They instantly seam to understand what I am asking and just convert to old names. So if the Standard players all know the old names, who the hell is this for?

Also, Salvation is the place to find Modern threads (and mods with an epeen that change weather patterns when they swing them) and they do not seam to be changing shit either. So yea, what's the point of all this?

[force_of_phil]

Summary of recent discussion:

KHAAAAAAAAANNNNNNS!

UWR is now called Jetskis.

RUG is now called Toonces.

D&T is now called Death, Taxes, and Marketing Schemes.

SCG controls both the house and the senate.

Standard players are still inside the Matrix.

Legacy players eat Apple Jacks.

Carry on.

[Higgs]

From my point of view, all this change means to me is a do not read SCG and do not watch SCG.

Yea man exactly. I had stopped reading their articles a while back even though I still have premium. They were good enough to have some regular reading material about Legacy but can't really say that anymore either. If theSource needs another run of donations I'd gladly chip in again because it's much better than SCG premium and it's free. It's also a good thing we have the VSL going currently so when I want to watch coverage I have plenty of great eternal coverage to watch.

Now if only they'd do a Legacy version of it..