My team and I have been testing Menendian's list for a couple of days and Oblivion Stone really shines.
We are still deciding to include B.Ring, but we added Extirpates in the sideas well as maindeck bayou.
The maindecked Crucible is very good. We play no Smokestacks, but additional 2x Stone (1 maindeck + 2 side).
We finally added Portal and removed a basic forest (now we only play 1) and it's worked okay. Under a Moon effect, if you have Portal in the yard, your Mountains produce R, G or W... that's awesome and makes Rau of Revelation flashback easier to cast.As for Urborg, is that better than riftstone portal? okay west for urborg is far better, but portal can save you from moon effects and ee away em while urborg not (or yes? i'm not sure 'bout that one.) Then we dont need oblivion stone.
Aggro needs to be very fast to defeat this deck, counterbalance is easier thanks to crucible, EE, Stone... and combo... well... you cannot beat everything i guess....
If you're getting Portal in the yard, then you've either resolved a mox diamond or dredged into it; at that point, you should have a forest against any deck it matters with.Originally Posted by Davetradint
Also, Blood Moon + Urborg makes all non-basics a Non-Basic Mountain.
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
Urborg does nothing relevant when a Moon effect is in place.
Rules Advisor
So what's your list? Could you post it entirely? Thanks!
Please, note that we have not released the beast yet and we're still testing. Some of our choices may seem suboptimal. And the most important: our meta is surely different from yours!! Feel free to ask about a certain choice or card.
4x Mox Diamond
4x Loam
3x Intuition
1x Gifts Ungiven (we're trying this, but maybe we go back to the full intuition plan)
4x Bond
4x Exploration
1x Oblivion Stone (this is great!!)
1x Zuran Orb
1x Explosives
1x Crucible of worlds (this card shines for real)
1x Forest
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tabernacle (we started with 2)
1x Bayou
3x Tropical island
4x Green Fetches
3x Tranquil thicket
3x Tolaria West
4x Factory
4x Wasteland
4x Maze
4x Port
1x Riftstone Portal (this s**t helps)
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Cephalid
The sideboard is changing, but we pack 3 Extirpates, a single karakas, 3 k.grips, some ray of revelation, another copy of O.Stone....
What is Extirpate in everybody's sideboard for? Do you see the mirror that often? Dredge should be fine without, Reanimator is more or less gone and there are no longer Mystical Tutors to mess up in the Storm matchup.
Life From the Loam mainly. Great for mirror or Aggro loam matches. It can be psuedo hate for dredge to a point if you really need it, though I never use it for that. Only if I see the exhume versions.
It's also handy for anything you severely fear like hate cards that you just don't want to deal with twice. I typically will board them in against Zoo just to wait for Price of Progress. I'll wait for them to cast one, sac my lands to Z orb to survive and then remove the rest of the POP's so I don't have to geddon myself again. Half the time, they are sitting on them hoping to catch you and play a couple in response to something like letting a Chasm go and loaming it back. Then you get to catch more than one usually. Even against Zoo it's usually a 3 for 1. They almost always try and sandbag them.
I also tend to keep them around for anyone who brings in extirpates of their own or brings in Crypts. Hitting a used crypt is nice since you typically don't have to worry about them again from then on out.
Iona out of reanimator still deserves a good answer you can push past Daze and Force also. Getting hit for green stops any loam shenanegans to get rid of her.
I still board them in for Storm despite it being kind of crappy. Storm sucks to play against so every little thing helps. It's nice to hit LED's since that stops IGG loops and a lot of people who play storm like to take that route if they are inexperienced. It's easier and it's not like Lands is going to stop it, usually... I will also gladly hit Dark Ritual if they cast it for an Ad Nauseum. I play Storm and Lands both so I know how bad it is to get hit for your Rituals by an Extirpate and try and go off with no mana floating. It makes for getting that Tendrils mana a lot harder, though half the time it doesn't work, it's worth a shot. You're dead to them mostly anyway. 50/50 is better than "Damn, i'm dead".
Really, how lucky are your opponents? Drawing all four price of Progress while they even have mana to cast at least 4? Sorry, you're playing in a world very different from mine.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Well, as I said before My meta can be very different from yours.
Reanimator still works, and pretty well I'd say:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36905
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37226
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37429
Anyway, our combo matchup will not improve a lot, but dude, at least you have a tiny chance/card to deal...50/50 is better than "Damn, i'm dead".
Yeah, that passage left me curious as well. ^^ I figured that Extirpate rules the Loam mirror (which I have yet to run into). I would not board Extripate vs Zoo at all. You cannot really hold onto it (unless shutting yourself off of Manabond) and I cannot see which 3 cards in the main could be worse against Zoo than Extirpate.
I have not faced Reanimator often, but I imagine you have enough tools for it sans Extirpate (Bridge, Oblivion Stone, Chasm/Maze/Karakas, Crypt post board). As I have MD Karakas, I don't really fear Iona on green - I fear Leviathan or stuff like It that Betrays. Iona, you can usually just maze it till you find Tolaria West.
My sideboard, which I'm quite happy with, is right now:
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Oblivion Stone (one MD)
2 Crucible of Worlds (none MD)
3 Krosan Grip
1 Smokestack
1 Phyrexian Processor (if I manage to loose G1 or for those G3s with 10 minutes on the clock)
1 Tormod's Crypt
(Karakas MD)
I tend to drag the games out really long every time. Once Chasm lock is out, they sit and build every single time. They will have time to draw way over 2/3rds of their deck. Usually, just about every burn spell they have is going to be in hand. I've seen people with the other 3 POP's quite often. I saw it in GP Columbus twice no less. You must just be playing it out differently than me. I always go the long game.
Do you run the maindeck ghost quarter? Typically, I can just quarter out their basics and win the game by not letting them have 2 lands, ever. Alternatively, you can just port their basics so they don't have mana when you come out of chasm-lock.
Slower Reanimator that needs sorcery speed blue and black spells to win the game? Sounds like a plan.
I don't think the Reanimator matchup is really that difficult; they need to get Iona + Inkwell (or Magus of the Moon, or It that Betrays) and we still have a lot of mana disruption.
When do spheres come in? Can you post your sideboard plans in/out for those matchups?
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
Spheres are mainly for combo. Just for Storm, I would prefer Chalice, but there seems to be more and more combo of the likes of Aluren or Show and Tell. Sphere can also come in against decks like Dredge and Burn. Actually, I am not 100% sure yet, when to bring in Spheres. They might also be strong against other manalight decks like Reanimator, but I have not enough evidence.
What matchups are 'those'?
That was mostly why I was asking; Do you feel like Spheres help your storm combo matchup to the point that they are worth having in the board?
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
My feeling is, that the storm combo matchup is hopeless anyway, even if you board in like eight cards for it. Sure, you might steal a game here and there, but who are we kidding? So even though I think Chalices are superior in that particular matchup, Spheres give you something to board in, all the while being much better against those combo decks, where you do have a fighting chance (Aluren, Show and Tell, Dream Halls, and - I guess - Painter).
Everyone loves to give another fellas decklist a spanking, so here's mine:
LANDS (43)
4 Wasteland
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
3 Halimar Depths
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Taiga
1 Academy Ruins
2 Tropical Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Windswept Heath
1 Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Treetop Village
1 Glacial Chasm
SPELLS (17)
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Intuition
2 Life From The Loam
2 Manabond
4 Gamble
4 Exploration
Haven't thought of the sideboard yet.
Explanation:
- 2 Life from the Loam. The reasoning behind this is:
- You need only one to start the card advantage engine.
- You need it early, but not necessarily before turn 3-4.
- You can fetch it with 6 other cards (4 gamble, 2 intuition)
- 2 Manabond. This has lower priority than life from the loam, thus it can only be fetched with the gambles and to some extent with halimar depths while loaming.
- 4 Exploration. These help a lot when trying to dominate the board. They have the potential to end up in the graveyard during loaming. Halimar depths helps against this
- 4 Gamble. Gets loam and important lands. Is there a better search card for this deck?
- 5 fetches instead of 4. These make halimar depths better
- No mox diamonds. Okay I can't loam round one, but this deck has only 2 loam so it's not very likely anyway.
- Few manlands. It's all about controlling the board and staying alive. You don't need so many critters for that.
- Zuran Orb. Staying alive can be hard vs aggro, this helps. It also works well with halimar depths + loam/crucible.
- No Coliseum. Using it to put 9 cards from the library in the graveyard reveals a lot of cards, but it also has a rather big probability of putting limited resources (exploration and manabond) in the graveyard. It is also a card that I feel I can manage without while loaming. Before loaming you usually cannot activate it because of the threshold requirement.
- One tolaria west. The cost for search can be stiff, and it can only search for explosives and lands, which are also searchable with gamble and intuition.
- Halimar depths. Very nice during loaming, as it reveals cards that you can pick and choose with cyclelands.
Comments appreciated.
Last edited by eirirlar; 08-31-2010 at 07:19 AM. Reason: wrong number of cards in list
Man, where have you been the last months??
You need all 4 Loams to get full advantage. You need them soon and it's better if they are in your hand. Nowadays I'm working in a list which also adds 1 or 2 Crucible of worlds. The engine of this deck is getting so many lands each turn from your graveyard into play or from hand into play.
Gamble sucks. Intuition has proven to be a better tutor. Gamble can make you a drity trick if the card you get doesn't end in the grave or in your hand depending on what you expected...
I recommend you to have a try at the lists which are having great success right now and test against real decks. You'll notice of your build can work ok, but the "blue lands" style just abuses of every card it has and takes more advantage.
Try those Tolaria West (3x), they're an uncounterable tutor!!! They find you whatever you need. And if you cannot find something with Tolaria (Bonds, Explorations, Moxen) just play your intuitions, they're a MUST (4x).
Mchainmail gave some addresses on how to mulligan or keep hands depending on what you see. Take a look at them, because it really helps.
Just have a try and compare what works best for you.
If you have the equivalent of 4 loams (2 loams and 4 gambles), shouldn't you be ok?
Is this really a big issue? It happens once in a while but hey, it's a tutor for 1 red mana.Gamble can make you a drity trick if the card you get doesn't end in the grave or in your hand depending on what you expected...
Have you tested Halimar Depths with life of the loam, if so what do you think?You'll notice of your build can work ok, but the "blue lands" style just abuses of every card it has and takes more advantage.
Have you tested Cephalid Coliseum? I think it's a win-more card and it puts important cards in the yard.
I'll try a couple more tolaria west.Try those Tolaria West (3x), they're an uncounterable tutor!!! They find you whatever you need. And if you cannot find something with Tolaria (Bonds, Explorations, Moxen) just play your intuitions, they're a MUST (4x).
Sorry,
I cannot see the point in wasting one precious land drop in a land that arranges 3 cards that are going to be dredged...
It's useful if you expect to draw something like manabond or intuition.... and therefore not dredging this turn. IMHO a land drop should be spent with untapped green mana, utility things like Maze, Port, or special powerhouses like Tabernacle....
What would you play if your opponent goes first with Mountain, Lackey? Depths or Maze?
If you use Gamble to put Loam in the grave, then why not Entomb?
As far as I know, versions with gamble failed until the blue ones proved their consistency and power... maybe i'm wrong...
As far as I know, the blue versions were primarily developed after Chris Woltereck list in the finals of an SCG 5k to Alix Hatfield after he gambled for Manabond and had to discard it.
Eli Kassis (top 64ed the gp with lands) was testing Sensei's top in his lists.
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
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