22? Oh well, that's more than i thought :)
The Emrakul move- ok tnx, i thought so. It's just that i never have enough mana to pitch that anger.. sigh :D
@ Waikiki and Zalachan - Chapin's DL is incredibly complicated, techy, and toolbox based. I haven't felt like the deck has been very good since Zoo and Goblins give it a lot of trouble. I've also lost a lot of games testing it on MWS (part of the reason is because I'm not used to the decklist and SB options). I was playtesting Chapin's deck with a friend who told me that it relied much more on SotF than my other builds. I feel that for the first 3 turns, all you're doing is trying to set up the engine. You're left completely helpless from aggro decks due to the lack of Goyfs or Swords.
What are your thoughts on Fauna Shaman? Is it a good enough card to replace Tarmogoyf? Maybe a 2 goyf/2 shaman trade? Shaman has proved to be pretty slow for me and it hasn't stuck around long enough for me to actually activate & use it. Without Anger, it take a while for Shaman to become worthwhile. Shaman does provide a decent body, however, the most it can do in combat is serve as a blocker.
Also, does anyone have the info regarding where Patrick Chapin placed at Columbus and what decks he lost to and beat? I heard he got something like 10th place?
Survival of the Fittest - 'natural selection', or the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life.
The deck completely focus on the combo. Goyf doesn't get u the combo. Fauna shaman does. Together with vial it's pretty strong. You actually try to race Zoo and Goblins or just try to gain more CA and stop them. So far Goblins has been doable for me if you know what your doing but Zoo seems pretty hard if you dont land the T2 survival.
Chapin ended 37th
Just played a version of Chapin's list to a first place at a 32 person tourney. I had a main deck finks which was certainly helpful in my wins over zoo. Onecard that I absolutely love and was great for me in several match ups was Peacekeeper. It turned several games from loses into wins.
The other big thing with the Chapin version is that you have to aggressively mulligan. You are a combo deck, and one without a bunch of cantrips/search. Hands that lack ways to land a survival or shaman are going to just lose, even if they initially look playable.
I think the chapin Survival deck is pretty solid, but when the gig is up (ie people know how it works), it's power will diminish significantly. They'll know that key cards to nuke are survival and fauna as the deck can't do anything without them. Of course the deck plays protection, but the lasting power of the deck is questionable. However I think it is very cool, and fun to play, I love it. I'm pretty pragmatic however and I've polished my own no-frills survival list over the last week when touring Aussieland playing against various archtypes:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Aether Vial
4 Survival
4 Swords
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Dark Confidant
2 Fauna Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Bone Shredder
1 Shriekmaw
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona
1 Squee
4 Bayou
3 Savanna
4 Heath
4 Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
SB
3 Choke
2 Grip
2 Tormod's crypt
1 Faerie Macrebre
3 Path
3 Duress
1 Gaddock
Some card choice inclusion and exclusion explanations:
Fauna- Never liked her theoretically, then played with her after chapin day 2ed with 4 of her. Like he said, its nowhere as good as survival but half a survival is good enough. My list is more goodstuff.deck with survival rather than pure combo so 2 is sufficient.
Dark confidant- Alternative engine to survival, The deck now has 9 must answers (4 Survival, 2 fauna, 3 bobs) and with 4 thoughtseize main to force them through, one of these engines should stick and win you the game. 4th was too heavy and also too much lifeloss along with 4 thoughtseize against aggro.
Kitchen Finks- Deck needed lifegain + a beatstick/bomb vs aggro, the finks was a good fit. Tried KOTR in this slot for a while, but it was subpar and when I cast KOTR it was usually a 3/3 or 4/4. This deck is more control oriented than aggro, so finks is better in this slot. Tried Stoneforge + Jitte here too. Was too slow, thanks to posters here for the heads up!
Shredder+ shriekmaw- Shriekmaw is pretty good all around, tutorable terror. Shredder was excellent with survival online, being able to terror + chump @ instant speed with vial is pretty good. Without survival, its still pretty solid as a removal spell + chumper vs aggro.
Pridemage/harmonic split- Played 2 pridemage at first, then I've found myself resolving a survival or fauna and then they drop a counterbalance next turn, ruining plans. The harmonic is pretty good in this case. It also has a chumping body against goyfs after you've blown their balance. Useful.
The rest are really run of the mill. Some MU analysis:
Counterbalance blue (No Natural order)- Positive matchup, you have more must answer bombs, should be able to out-grind them. If you stick a vial, its hard to lose.
Natural order counterbalance- 50/50 It's he who gets the combo up first. You only have 4 seize for their natural order. When the hydra lands, its GG. Its difficult if you don't play correctly against them. You cannot afford to slowroll because topdeck natural order is gameover. Quick Iona is the best strategy. I've won games by thoughtseizing their cantrips, nuking their nobles, and stranding them on 2/3 mana while ignoring their beats and going for the quick Iona. I then proceed to beat in the air and chaining kitchen finks.
Zoo/folk/Aggro- you have 4 swords, 4 goyf, 1 maw/ 1 shredder + 3 finks. Preboard 50/50, Not too bad, easier after board as you have 3 paths and just too much gas for them to handle. You don't have islands so merfolk isn't that difficult.
Combo- Pretty dreadful preboard, but you might get lucky if you open thoughtseize and quick iona. But preboard is at best 30%. Post is closer to 50/50 as you have 3 duress and 1 teeq from the board. So duress effect followed by turn 3 teeq (from your 6 survival effects) is very strong.
Landstill (with jace and deeds)- Preboard slight disadvantage maybe 45/55 but not as bad as you would think. With bobs, you have alot of must answers and vial is a headache for them. Don't go for quick iona because of jace and first tutor target should be bob. Outdrawing them is the priority. Once you stick a bob and start drawing, chain finks and it should be GG, A top deck deed can't get rid of finks totally or the cards you drew off bob. SB choke is devastating, you play so much must answer bombs so you should play the choke LAST.
Cheers, try it! Let me know what you think. I'm trying to fit in more discard against combo as thats the weakest MU but the list is very tight as it is.
Anyone who doesn't know to nuke survival or fauna shaman is an idiot. People don't need to learn these things. And people saw most of what I was doing coming from a mile away. I had my first round opponent get exasperated and exclaim "I know how it works" when I was doing Loyal Reatiner/Emrakul tricks. The only thing that I did with the deck that people didn't see coming was using Peacekeeper.Originally Posted by ivanpei
If you untap with Survival, you pretty much win with the chapin list. With multiple hand disruption spells, and ways to make your minisurvival (shaman) uncounterable (vial), it's not particularly hard to stick your important cards. I did it in the face of 3 force of will decks, 2 decks with 4 maindeck pridemages, and the like. I went off in the face of 2 peices of graveyard hard (relic, crypt) despite having sideboarded like a fool and removing my maindeck artifact kill.
Chapins list does 2 things that are exceptionally important that most survival lists don't bother to do. The first is win quickly. Ending the game is always the best way to make sure nothing bad happens, especially if your not playing countermagic. The second is to take away an opponents ability to fight back. Magus of the Moon alone leaves so many decks absolutely helpless. Being able to turn off the manabases of so many decks is a huge blow to alot of the format.
If you don't have much experience, is Thoughtseize better? How about Duress? And how about decks like the Chapin one that only play Therapy?
I want to get into Legacy a bit (local tournaments), but I don't feel quite ready yet for Cabal Therapy ^^;
How does one learn to name the right cards? =)
Therapy isn't as hard to land as one might think. Just go with the biggies. Force of will, brainburst, Tarmogoyf, Aether Vial, StP, or any of the top played cards.
Know your local metagame. I've play therapy in every black deck Ive play since judgement came out.
Started beside Duress, and now it's thoughtseize. They're only better when paired with black ritual.
There's nothing like landing a therapy in the dark.
Last edited by g0atsticks; 09-01-2010 at 05:12 PM. Reason: how could i forget tarmogoyf??!?!?
You can usually guess what they're playing by their first turn plays. If you're going blind turn 1 on the play with no idea what your opponent is playing, I wouldn't play therapy first. I'd like to at least know what archtype/colours I'm playing against. Once you know what archtype, I'd name their most dangerous card like balance/survival/force/LED etc etc. Or against gobbos or fast decks I'd name their next possible play to try to wreck their tempo abit. Like you cast it when they have 2 lands in play and next turn they should be dropping either warchief, cheiftain or matron. I'd name warchief to slow them down or matron if I have the plowshare for warchief. Chieftain is rarely a 4 off, so there is a higher possibility of whiffing.
@ Sharpened.
I agree that chapins list is excellent vs blue and wins fast. However that list has big problems vs fast aggro with even minimal forms of disruption. Namely folk, bant aggro and zoo. Of course it can be played around but I won't say the list is perfect, I just think that its a riskier form of survival though it can pay dividends if played well. My "safe" survival list can also win on the spot with iona-retainers, I've just cut the emrakul combo + red because it makes my manabase more inconsistent and I always go for Iona first anyway as I can handle a bad board position by chaining kitchen finks/removal to recover. Chapin's version can't, so having the emrakul + anger option to win when behind is important. I don't claim my version is better, I just think its "safer", so to each his own.
Really glad that the Survival forum has opened up again. I was wondering if Engineered Plague still sees much play these days? Is it too slow against Goblins and Merfolk? I've found some other uses for it but it hasn't been one of the best SB choices lately.
IMO, some of the toughest matchups Survival has are GY recursion decks. Decks like Aggroloam and UG Survival Madness are incredibly difficult. If I were to dedicate 4 SB slots to GY hate, what combinations do you think is the best? I've always had 4x Leylines but now I'm not sure if that's the optimal choice.
Yes, I agree that Chapin's deck is a little to Combo oriented. I've been testing a few different Decklists including Chapins and other ones with VV. VengeVine is a little comboish as well (the list I was running was a BGW) and relied a lot on Survival since I didn't run Mongrel. I probably should test with Mongrel to see though.
Survival of the Fittest - 'natural selection', or the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life.
Graveyard hate ready for Survival should be the best. I'd run 3 Faerie Macabre and 1 Loaming Shaman. Withered Wretch is another option ifis easy to pay in your build.
I would play some combination of macabre and crypt/relic. I think loaming shaman/wretch is a bit slow. Most likely crypt, because I play goyfs and squee so I don't want to lose my own graveyard. I think the emrakul +macabre combo is slightly better than withered wretch as recurring grave hate. Wretch can actually be bounced/killed. My 2 cents.
I'm playing Jund Charm and Wheel of Sun and Moon as my GY hate... That's two other options (good ones in my opinion), since you get some versatility from Jund Charm.
Actually, both those options seem pretty awful.
In a survival deck, your GY hate should be 1 of 2 things:
Tutorable
Available on turn 1
Which means if its not a creature, and every survival deck should have at least 1 Faerie Macabre, it should be something like Tormod's Crypt or Ravenous Trap. Honestly, I like a 1 of Yixlid Jailer becuase most of the decks that I'm running the hate against won't have kill for him, and he's tutorable, and I can often vial him into play.
I have been trying to build a good faeries deck for legacy for a very long time, and i think i got it. Give fae an aggro bant shell! anyways, i know this isnt chapin's new combo build but i figured i might as well post my build up here to see what yall think. I call it Faecrusher. Its a midrange deck at heart but it can win very fast with goyf's and equips and stuffs. Hope u enjoy!
The Meat
4x Spellstutter Sprite
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Ninja of the Deep Hours (this card is so f'n good, idk why more ppl dont run it!)
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob (since i play to win midrange, i feel like running 1 of these bad boys helps me stay in the game without giving up card advantage)
Non-Creature Spells
1x Jace, the Mind Sculpter
3x Survival of the Fittest (i only run 3 bc of my creature to noncreature ratio, so dont get ur panties in a bunch that im not a dedicated survival deck)
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Spell Snare
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Path to Exile (since im not running wastelands or stifles, i prefer to give them lands over giving them life. Plus i have 4x of the rebecca guay alt art promo paths!)
The Lands
1x Island
1x Forest
2x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Horizon Canopy (i prefer this to Savannah which i never end up fetching for... so overall this is way better imo)
2x Flooded Strand
1x Windswept Heath
1x Karakas
1x Riptide Laboratory (to reacur Spellstutter Sprites, Vendilion Cliques, and to save ur Qasali Pridemages and Sower of Temptations from spot removal)
4x Mutavault
2x Spell Pierce
2x Krosan Grip
1x Pithing Needle
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Trygon Predator
1x Dauntless Escort (vs Landstill and New Horizons)
1x Faerie Macabre (specifically for Thopter Combos)
2x Gaddock Teeg (vs ANT)
1x Sower of Temptation
2x Relic of Progenitus (Dredge, Reanimate...etc)
Faerie Macabre in my opinion more powerful than Jailer. It won't shut you down. Easily returnable with GENESIS and cost nothin to use its abilty over and over.
Every SoF should run at least one Macabre. I run an extra in the SB too, along with leylines.
Sof vs Tendrils
Does anyone run true believer's in their main to prevent this combo?
I've been toying with it, and if they cant put their combos together quick enough its easy enough to prevent their win altogether.
Most of the Tendrils decks only run that as a kill. Also stop belcher.
Just throwing it out there.
What is the difference exactly between Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist? What does the one stop that the other doesn't? =)
Gaddock is the better maindeck card. It harms combo because they have to bounce it before killing you, but it also randomly hoses Natural Order, Force of Will, Wrath of God, Dread Return, Humility, Engineered Explosives, Replenish and a good amount of other stuff.
Canonist is the better Anti Combo choice because it severely slows them down and prevents them from going off at all, so they have to bounce it before they combo which is often a big difference. Furthermore they can't Wish/Tutor for Removal and play that Removal in the same turn which gives you time to kill them / react to their plans. It also stops randomness like Hypergenesis Combo.
I havent seen a Tendrils deck that doesn't also run Empty the Warrens. Besides, I'd much rather impede their ability to go off with Teeg or Canonist, then let them go off an do whatever they want fetching their bounce.
I've thought about True Beleiver, it just doesn't do enough. And the double white casting cost isnt exactly pleasant either.
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