If you had to choose, which deck would you play? the "old" list with gambles? or the 4 loam + 4 intuition one?
What i wanted to say, is that Gamble decks are now obsolete and Intuition has proven to be a great engine. Or not?
While I would never go below 4 Loam - you often loose 1-2 to graveyard hate - Intuition is clunky at times and I can see people supplementing it (not replacing it) with Gamble, as in the t8 list of the last SCG 5k (which had some odd choices anyway), which runs 4 Intution, 2 Gamble. If you have neither Mox nor Exploration, Intuition is really clunky, especially on the draw (say you keep Manabond, Intuition, 5 Lands). I also sucks to get it dazed, and it sucks even more to wait until T4 to play around Daze, just to have it forced. Don't get me wrong, I really like Intuition, I just wouldn't totally dismiss Gamble.
Also, the old lists already had 4 Loam (+ Gamble and Intuition, here) and before even "7" Loam (3 Loam + Burning Wish).
gamble is nothing new--but even more interesting than gamble in that list is Celestial Colonnade. I've always thought that shit would be awesome but never bothered to test it. Seeing someone garner some success with it tempts me to go out and trade for one.
Don't you think the activation cost is a little too stiff? If you have 2 mishra's out and a couple of Mazes to boost one of them you can reach that power and toughness for less mana. Mishra's are more versatile and better earlier in the game.
I just played colonnade at a tournament and its pretty awesome. Put it this way--attacking for 4 with factories costs 4. This costs 1 more, but you get flying. Granted, mazes can pump factories on an open board, but I'd rather keep my mazes for opposing creatures and start flying over without even bothering to clear the board.
I beat landstill after getting loam extirpated on turn 5 purely because Colonnade flies over factories. There were some other games tonight where the evasion really mattered, mainly vs aggro decks. Just think of any occasion where you wish you could start winning but the board is being clogged by creatures. Unlike Gargoyle Castle, which can be timewalked by a swords then cut off with GY removal, Colonnade is only exposed to swords on your turn, so you just have to port like a pro.
Granted, Colonnade is terrible for defense, but I've been playing without factories on defense for months now and done fine. In my experience, playing defense with your factories is generally how they get sent farming.
Also--if anyone is still going with the big creature sideboard plan, I think I've found the single best creature for that strategy. It's Ob Nixilis, big scary black dude. If you're in black, (which I think you should be...bob in the board is sick) then you should run Ob, not Meloku.
Edit -- Also, dude, in response to one of your previous questions, Cephalid Coliseum is not a win-more card. There are going to be situations where you have loam but no accelerator and an active coliseum will really help. It's draw 3 will help you find Manabond/exploration/etc and the discard 3 will be negated by using loam to put 3 random lands in hand. And if you do have a manabond up, nothing feels better than going dredging up 3 loams with coliseum, casting all three and discarding 9+ lands into play. It is absolutely nuts.
@Serbitar -- how often have you used Phyrexian Processor and won with it? Putting some exorbitant number like 10 or 15 into it doesn't seem at all unreasonable, given how easy it is to defend yourself with Zorb and chasm. I'm really turned on to the idea because I've never even considered it before.
Phyrexian Processor has been in my sideboard just the last tournament, where I boarded it in once and promptly won with it. I had lost G1 to 3 MD Relics (against Monoblack), plopped down Processor for 10 on turn 3 of G2 and just won. That being said, Processor is in my board solely for time constraints and even then it is kind of hard to find. But it does not require you to be black and run Stronghold (for Meloku/Ob Nixilis). Another option in that slot, as suggested on starcitygames.com, might be Keening Stone.
On the other issue, I cannot say I like Colonnade/Urza's Factory replacing Mishra's Factory. MFactory is such a good defensive card and is solely responsible for all the tricks this deck has (in conjunction with Maze, that is: attacking for 4 with Factories costs 2-4, depending how many Mazes you have). Finding white mana to activate Colonnade seems like a pain, plus the situations where you can afford to pay 4 and swing over a clogged board (that is, not having to spend ressources to make the board more favorable or prevent it from becoming more unfavorable) seem sparse. A fortiori, I cannot imaging having 8 open mana to activate UFactory unless the game is won anyway.
Id you play EE, O.Stone or similar things, you can wipe the field and then proceed to attack with whatever you can imagine, i.e: Factories. So we should not worry about flying or evasive abilities. Just follow the steps... resist the rush, clog the table, wipe it, and crush the opponent.
I was the pilot of the top 8 list in the 5K. A few notes on card choices:
Gamble: One third the mana cost of Intuition and less reliant on the graveyard. You just have to be careful when you gamble, i.e. when you have 5-6 cards in hand. And yes, sometimes it screws you but I think overall it increases consistency.
Urza's Factory: This has been mediocre but I still like it better than Mishra's Factory. Mishra's Factory is dodgy on defense, because in addition to Wasteland, your opponent can swords, bolt or stingscourge it, or just islandwalk right past. This frees up three more slots for lock pieces and answers. I could certainly see cutting it for something else though.
Colonnade: This thing has been amazing. With maindeck Savannah and Riftstone Portal I rarely have trouble activating it (although I wouldn't play it in the black version). Like Mindslaver/Meloku/Dark Depths it provides a timely wincon to prevent draws, but you never have to expose yourself to gy hate to tutor for it. Too many times I've tried to Intuition for my end-game plan to see it extirpated, faerie macrabred, or whatever. Colonnade just stays in your library until you're ready to transmute for it.
It preforms one other fundamental task: killing Jace. He is one of Counterbalance's best cards against us and there were multiple games in the 5K that I would have lost had I not had an active Colonnade to take him out. Since it's uncounterable and (ideally) never hits the graveyard, the CB player has much more difficulty in stopping it than O Stone.
@Antonius: Agreed on your analysis of Coliseum. I love how it finds me Explorations.
@questionmuppet - grats on your Top 8 placement!
And yeah, i agree with you on Colonnade. In that game I won against Landstill one of the things it did for me was kill elspeth before she could get out of hand with tokens. The only other thing I have to say on the matter is that Colonnade conserves one essential resource: time. Setting up the bomb lock costs turns and a clogged board isn't necessarily unfavorable. If you have your opponent stuck behind a couple of mazes with a tabernacle chewing his mana, or have ports pinching off the colors he needs to cast more threats, then you're absolutely in control of the game. Why not start winning now? esp. versus blue aggro decks, which can set your bomb lock back a turn or two with whatever counters they've been sandbagging over the course of the game?
I'm currently playing a UGbw, with white to support Colonnade and Ray of Revelation out of the board. Like you, i have a MD savannah and a Karakas I haven't had many issues getting white by the time I need it, with the exception of that game vs landstill when I had no loam. I run urborg instead of portal, though.
questionmuppet: I was pretty interested in your sideboard choices: mainly the 4 leylines. How did those work out for you? Also, how useful did you find all the burn cards in your board (aeolipile, flame jab, barbarian ring)?
Now I'm back to the Gamble. Here is the configuration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Intuition
4 Mox Diamond
3 Gamble
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
5 Green fetch
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Academy Ruins
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Riftstone Portal
Sideboard
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pithing Needless
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Karakas
1 Bokuja Bog
1 Horizon Canopy
Manabond last days is working me as win more... it really helps to kill faster in some games but after a couple of tournaments Gamble has worked perfect to me. Also helps to find sideboard in g2!
If we can't take the route of Life from the Loam we have a great engine of 3 Crucibles + 2 Horizon Canopys post side which is great, we can use that vs decks with extirpate, support to normal loam against decks with black that use a combination of extirpate and artifact hate, and in mirror since we can name Tranquil Thicket with Pithing.
Gamble also helps with moon effect since we can use any mana to cast Gamble for Oblivion Stone/EE or even Mox diamond if we have i.e. portal in hand.
To the experts of this deck , is really Manabond needed? I've found is not, what's your opinion?
Are the two copies of Tranquil Thickett enough? Or I'm gonna miss the third?
Thanks!
new win con? Fits all the billings...tutorable, cheap, recur-able capable of becoming retardedly big...
so, si o no?
@iostream: I love Leyline of Sanctity in this deck. It fills many holes in Lands' strategy and has played better than I anticipated. Against combo it buys you time to find Chalice and/or Canonist, at which point they usually can't win. It is also stupid against burn, turning their entire deck off for long enough to find Zuran Orb/Glacial Chasm. These are the obvious applications.
It also turns off Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Relic activations, Intuition and Thoughtseize. I usually bring in 2-3 against Zoo to disrupt their burn and make my gy safer. In the mirror it is seriously ridiculous because Crypt and Bog are some of the most important cards in the match-up, and it's hilarious when four of their tutors are dead. I'll board in 2-3 here as well.
The burn spells are there as a concession to Meddling Mage and Magus of the Moon. Unfortunately I haven't faced the intended match-ups frequently enough to have a feel for how good/terrible these cards are. They might be better as some number of O Stones.
A swords/path can ruin our dayOriginally Posted by Antonius
new win con? Fits all the billings...tutorable, cheap, recur-able capable of becoming retardedly big...
so, si o no?
dude a swords/path ruins factories too. just port like a pro.
Swords doesn't work against it that well when we destroy every single land they have with ghost quarter and wasteland...and we have port as Antonius stated. The card seems really solid as a 1 of as a tutor target but it needs to get tested to be completely sure.
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I'm going to have to try Leyline once i get 2 more to fill out my playset. It's really unfortunate that it doesn't shut off the most relevant burn card against us: Price of Progress.
You can hold up a wasteland here though, to not get completely boned.
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nahnah, you just ZOrb it. Dat whey u git tuh laff at teh dood 'cos yo still gained 2 lives.
Do you know anything else about this? in what slots was he testing it, what cards went out for them, did the tops fit well in the deck? something else?
I was thinking of trying them and I read your post, it would be helpfull if you know something else about his testing with tops.
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