If you have a blood moon in play, ALL of your lands will be mountains. I don't know if that will change your opinion of him, but he's certainly improved having four mountains in play as opposed to two mountains and two city of traitors.Originally Posted by Vacrix
Rishadan Port is like scuba gear.
--FoulQ
With the list I am testing, I have been having lots of mana problems even though I run:
11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
3 Koth
Should I be running a 12th mountain?
Call me Ishmael
So, congrats to Dragon Stompy for Koth?
luv,
unsupported community?
So Koth looks like a definite 3-of in a maindeck Dragon Stompy. I would like to have that ultimate active ASAP, so I would almost consider popping the ultimate the 3rd turn Koth is on the table (once he has 5 counters) which would kill him. My thought is that once you have the emblem, that Koth isn't as useful after that point. What are everyone's thoughts on how best to use him and his ultimate?
Rules question with Koth: You need a target Mountain for his +1 ability right, otherwise you can't activate the ability?
Yeah. I'd imagine that as long as you active the ability with a legal target, it will resolve even if the target goes away (opp Wasting your Volcanic Island or somesuch).
Why for the last ability??
At long last something extremely good.. I'll be missing this thread, if there will be almost nothing to discuss! But maybe it will be revived with new tournament reports from now on:D
I don't think I will continue the debate about Lord of Shatterskull Pass now. My concern is about the number of Arc-Sloggers, 3 or 4.
With 3xKoth in -and an 11th Mountain- the "unplayable Slogger" issue is almost gone (it'll never be gone 100% in magic). But if you add 4 Sloggers that means 2xTrinisphere or none are maidecked. What can we cut to increase the number of Trinispheres to 3, I'm wondering.
I used to play 3 Blood Moons until today, but now 4 are even better than before mainly due to Koth's second (and third) ability. No room there. Same with Magi of the Moon.
4 Raiders are good for pitching, are extraordinarily easy to cast (anti-manascrew) and...are most aggressive. I've never thought of cutting them.
R.P.Dragons? Nein!!
Chalices? NOT A CHANCE!
Simians, Moxes? Emergency threat, both mana-boosters, supporting hellbent. Negative.
Seething Song?? I don't think this can be cut. Adding at least 3 more 2RR spells in DS needs more support than 1 extra Mountain. Songs were crucial before, they are even more crucial now. Yes Koth gives you mana. But you need to cast him first! Just my opinion..
SO...what's left? 9 slots. 3 Koths in? => That leaves 6 slots. Why not 3xArc-Slogger and 3xTrinisphere?
If you think Trinispheres aren't needed so much in the main deck, then definitely try playing 4 Arc-Sloggers! But only 2 Trinis sound bad. I don't care if Ruel played 2 sometime in the past. They will come in your hand mostly when they are useless.
Do you guys think Jitte is worth it anymore main or SB? If you played my 3xKoth, 3xSlogger, 3xTrinisphere configuration, what would you think of the following sideboard? 4xNeedle, 4xFaerie Macabre, 2xAnarchy, 2xR.E.Blast, 1xJaya Ballard, 1xJitte, 1xRack and Ruin. Do you think Pyrokinesis,Pyroclasm or Kegs are more handy than some of my choices and which?
EDIT:I wouldn't focus on his ultimate... His first two abilities are too hot and kinda put you in dilemmas, estimating best mana usage and the highest damage. I'd try to have the opponent cornered before being able to use the ulti. Or I'd use the second ability to pump a Dragon in order to deal more extra damage than with the ulti. It depends on the game (example, the kind of removal the opponent has).
One more important thing to ask all of the Legacy-die-hard players...Do you expect Koth's price to go up too fast or/and too much? I'm thinking of going to the prerelease, trying to trade 4 of them and getting the rest via order. But if you guys think that it won't play too much in Legacy except in DS, maybe the best move to get 4 of them fast is an internet order. I don't know about Goblins or Sligh, but could Koth be good in Aggro-Loam for example, or any other deck? If yes, the price could increase instantly. I'd really like to have the quartet before they reach Elspeth's or Jace's price. EDIT: Koth's an Epic rare.
Your opinions will be appreciated very much as always.
Last edited by 0dysseus; 09-12-2010 at 10:03 PM.
- Where are the *dragons* in this list?
- I am the dragon in this list.
It is tough to say. He must be used in a base Red deck, so pretty much mono Red. If it turns out he is aggressive enough at four mana to be a staple in Standard Burn, then his price will go up, but Burn might be unplayable between Wall of Omens, Kor Firewalker and Leyline of Sanctity.
I'm gonna post the same thing as on the scars thread:
"
Re: [SOM] Spoiler Discussion
From Mtgsalvation:
Precursor Golem
5 Colorless, Golem Artifact Creature, 3/3
When it comes into play, put two colorless Golem artifact creature tokens into play. Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell that targets only a single Golem, that player copies that spell for each other Golem that spell could target. Each copy targets a different one of those Golems.
THIS has huge potential to be broken. The mana cost is a big barrier but I can see a dragon stompy shell with 8 double lands,chrome mox, mana monkeys, seething song, chalice of the void, rakdos pit dragon, any broken red pump spells i'm missing? I could imagine a much more combo style red stompy build which abuses challice/trini/moons to get through/bait counters/removal then force pitdragon/golem through. Big pump spell + double striking dragon/golem= insta kill. Golem also enables metalcraft- mox opal, but thats fringe playable as it doesn't contribute to turn 1/2 explosiveness.
EDIT: Only red pump I can think off is bloodlust, which is auto GG with golem for 21 damage. With helbent rakdos + 3 more mana, its 20 damage. "
thoughts?
Double striking dragon is ALREADY an instant kill! And just imagine a single Krosan Grip killing all 3 Golems! Cute. Why play 3 vulnerable 3/3 Golems and not play a 4/5 Arc-Slogger who kills your opponent's "Golems"?
Try it if you like, but remember that Bloodlust needs a threat to work. A threat doesn't need Bloodlust to work.
- Where are the *dragons* in this list?
- I am the dragon in this list.
You could always side out the Golems in game 2. It wouldn't void your opponent's removal, but few decks run mainboard answers to artifacts other than Trygon or Quasali Pridemage, and the Golem doesn't get eaten by them so hard as by real removal.
I actually sort of agree with Precursor Golem's potential for complete absurdity, except for one problem. Precursor Golem doesn't play nice with Chalice of the Void. Chalice will stop removal aimed at your golem. Chalice will not stop the copies from hitting your baby golems.
Granted, you get 6 life or 2 basic lands if they STP or Path the thing under a Chalice for 1, but you're still re-enabling otherwise dead cards.
Nonetheless, I'll be testing this. My gut feeling is that its place is actually in some other color chalice aggro (Green) and not here, but there's a lot of potential for craftiness here.
You're kind of enabling dead cards, and kind of not. Say you have a Chalice out @1 and play this dude. Opponent can either deal with 9 power of attackers (probably not good), or can shave off 6 and give you 6 life, or 2 basic lands, or just bolt them (better)...but you still have 3 power. So, while a 5 mana 3/3 that ramps you two lands or gains you 6 life isn't amazing, it's those games when they don't have removal that it really shines.
This set has been very generous to Dragon stompy.
so the 3 cards in contention are:
These 3 cards have huge potential in DS. Of course, we will see which one can last the test of time, and only one will probably meet full time MD status as a standard build (or maybe i can be wrong).
Here's my 2 cents on each:
koth:
+++ Strong, easy to fall in love with. Incredible ultra and versatility to get u out of tuff spots. awesome cmc.
_ _ _ Has potential to put u in a bad mana position if mountains die. the 1st and third ability might be weakened w/ unresolved moons.
precursor:
+++ Amazing combo potential. I've actually played with blazing shoal to ramp up hellbent dragon b4. It does help a little when u can get t3 dragon kill when u shoal a raiders or slogger. Shoaling a raiders on this guy is a smooth 24 damage. not too shabby.
_ _ _ One bolt can end it all. As for the pte/stp argument, the single removal would kill any 5 cc creature anyways right. I actually see this as a plus, bc DS's biggest mismatch is black, but this really helps against edicts, poxes, and gatekeeper.
Phoenix:
+++ Ok, maybe no one but me likes this lol. But I just think that a 5cc with possible recursion is a nice new mechanic that could be splashed into this deck. keeps the aggro going, some evasion, and can be your out vs sweepers.
_ _ _ Very hard to play. 3 red's means your wishing for seething song a little too much. could hurt hellbent worse than the slogs.
______________________________________
The one issue I have w/ this set is the knock on chalice aggro decks. Do you guys think that if proliferate becomes a legit mechanic that chalice will lose much of the power it used to carry around? The proliferate ability will prob be pushed for the next 3 sets, so hopefully it just stays in the blue realm.
Fixed this for you.
Lol yea. i know we gotta stay away from the RRR. i think magic just teases players sometimes trying to get them to play harder cards. that extra card no one's been talking about, but the first two, ppl are definitely considering.
----
edit: u know what. I'm deck testing this, and I actually am not paying the cmc sometimes! If I have the song, great. If i don't i pitch it to mox or raiders. in the grave, i recurr it fairly ok as well for 4 colorless. so not as shabby as i rated it b4. I'm gonna still put it into consideration.
seems like Koth will be played at least 2 times in each Dragon Stompy version...
Koth will lead back to Seething Songs and Sloggers, which some of us had never cut, while others removed them for constancy reasons and Hellbent issues...
If we would create a "Standard Koth Shell", it would probably look something like this:
standard Koth DS
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc-Slogger
4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
3 Koth of the Hammer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
1 Slot open for Slogger, Trini, Jitte, whatever
NOW we could exchange Gathans Raiders with Taurean Mauler... both cost 3, both were 2/2, and afterwards mostly 3/3 or more threatening...
RPD could be cut for FTK, Kargan Dragonlord or other stuff... a list could look like something in this direction:
non-Hellbent DS
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler
3 Arc-Slogger
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Kargan Dragonlord
4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
3 Koth of the Hammer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
We should have enough "reach" with this list [3 Sloggers, 3 Koth, 2 Dragonlords], and won't have the problem of losing games like: lose Hellbent cuz of random-Slogger in hand, or lose Hellbent cuz Koth is Legendary in hand, and stuff like that... --> you all know what I mean... Also we don't lose that aggro-part what older "constant lists" had lost in comparison with "standard DS"...
what do you think?
YawG
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
Definitely like the the new consistent list.
I'm a little on edge with kargan. He is good, but he doesn't take over games fast enough. Maybe koth will change this.
in terms of the meta, I'm worried we still don't have solid answers for the bigs: emrakul, progenitus, and iona. In the old list, our only hope was to outrun with dragon/hellbent. What should we go for with this list? I just feel that we're getting caught up in revamping this deck, and we're not tailoring it to the current meta.
I think that list looks awesome.
But IMO, with Koth in the deck, that last open slot should absolutely go to the 11th mountain.
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