Sorry Pulp_Fiction, I'm just used to people being certain ways on message boards, and as such try to head off unhelpful rants, which is what my last post can be written up to.
The list I was playing was aimed at a heavy blue meta but without red as an option. This disallowed the normal way of combating blue (EtW), and the list was about a turn slower than a normal FT List. This along with testing against aggro lists and Ichorid led me to try the Ghostly Prison as a way to buy a little more time against these lists that were beating me. Whenever I dropped one, I won. It was solid tech as long as I got it in time (Turn 1 or 2 tutor into it was a solid play). If there's a better way, I would love to hear it, but with the list I was playing, (already a 4c list), I couldn't feel comfortable in a wasteland heavy meta playing a 5th color (the fourth was just a splash; green).
I think from my efforts I learned one thing. Red is going to be important, and I believe I was wrong with my initial feeling that red is on its way out of combo. Theres a new creature in scars that costs (1)(W), its a 2/2 and stops players from searching their libraries. This means fetches get shut down, IT gets shut down, Enlightened Tutor gets shut down, D-Day gets shut down. Burning Wish however, does not. Cunning Wish neither, but the cmc is just a bit too stringent as far as I'm concerned. I can't seem to get it right.
I'm interested in Mox Opal and if a more SI approach might be a better idea than the last few lists I've seen. I'm tired of Ad Nauseam, it just can't bend to a situation. How does the general player of FT feel about Top in non-D-Day lists?
Also, why are players like Bryant and Emidln playing 3/1 Chants and Silence respectively? Isn't it just a better idea to play 4 chants?
Thanks guys,
--ABC
I don't play any protection spells in any builds outside of Duress, Thoughtseize, Daze, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, and Xantid Swarm. Force of Will and Spell Pierce are only for builds including Show and Tell. In a normal DDFT list, my choices are pretty much Duress, Thoughtseize, Daze, and Xantid Swarm.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
So you never use chant/silence? What's the reasoning behind this development? Is daze an actual possibility? I've never even heard of that as a possibility before. I suppose that's not too shabby of an idea. I'm guessing 4 duress, 4 daze, 1 Thoughtseize?
I don't think I've ever even considered playing blue protection, that's so silly. I'm going to try it.
--ABC
That's because the deck itself is already 4 colors, 5 colors might be overdoing it.Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
The current builds I run only runs 4 Duress and 3 Daze with one Seize in SB.
I tested quite a bit last night and daze is freaking good. I think it's probably better than Pyroblast. My favorite play so far is Underground Sea into Duress with a Daze in hand.
I've played 5c lists, and they aren't bad in a wasteland light metagame, but that was with Mystical, so IDK how well it will work now. (loved 4 Duress, 4 PBlast, 1 Chant. That was the sh!t)
--ABC
I made it to a top 4 split at my local cardshop tonight out of 20-22 people. I am REALLY liking this list. Helm of Awakening is seriously nuts and flat out won me 2 games when I was at least 1 mana short of the win! I encountered basically every hate card (aside from Mindbreak Trap) in the format and came out rocking! I got good matchups but my opponents always got their hate cards into play. Here is the list I played followed by a short report:
4x Top
4x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
3x Doomsday
2x Thoughtseize
2x LDV
1x IGG
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Meditate
1x Emrakul
1x Tendrils
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x City of Brass
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Shelldock Isle
SB
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils
1x Thoughtseize
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown
2x Wipe Away
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sad Sac
1x Echoing Truth
Round 1 - Merfolk (0-2)
g1: He Wastelands me out of the game and after a Duress I see double Force, Spell Pierce and Merfolk.
g2: Mull to 5 and get overwhelmed.
Round 2 - Death and Taxes
g1: Turn 4 Meditate stack after a mull to 5.
g2: He drops a Runed Halo on Tendrils and gets met w GRAPESHOT for 100000000 on turn 4.
Round 3 - Pyromancer's Ascension combo
g1: Turn 4 Meditate stack after Duress and BW for Thoughtseize.
g2: I can't draw into shit after a mull to 6 and he mulls to 5. We are both left there drawing bricks. I Top into a Mediate and Brainstorm and go for it since my hand is all acceleration. Odds are on my side since I can potentially dig 10 cards into my deck. I hit Burning Wish and the game is quickly over.
Round 4 - G/W Death and Taxes
g1: He plays turn 2 Teeg. I Burning Wish for Deathmark and setup a kill on my turn 5 via LDV. I get there with the help of a recently drawn Helm and am able to IGG, bring back DD, LED, Brainstorm, and build a Meditate stack using the Brainstorm in my yard to bring it back.
g2: He mull to 6 and I Thoughtseize Teeg out of his hand. I easily win on turn 4 with a DD IGG stack.
Round 5 - B/G/w Vengevine Survival
g1: Turn 3 IGG stack easily gets there.
g2: THIS WAS SO BAD ASS. We both mulled to 6 and he starts off a little slow. I have a Top and Helm in play on turn 4 as well as 3 lands. I play a fetchland and look with Top, I see: Top, Tendrils, Emrakul. I think to myself, damnit deck stop giving me waiiiiiiiiit, THATS THE STONE COLD NUTS. I have Dark Ritual in hand and activate the Top to draw Top. Infinite storm ensues since Helm is in play, then I cast Dark Ritual, rearrage the top 3, draw Tendrils, tap a land and cast Tendrils for 1000000! The best part was when I told my opponent "ok, activate Top to draw Top, infinite storm". The look of absolute shock on his face was sooooo priceless!
Overall there is not a single thing I would change about the deck except going to 3x Duress and 3x Thoughtseize in the main. I can win so many ways that its just insanity. You have Empty the Warrens, Tendrils, Emrakul, and Grapeshot! The versatility of this deck is insane. The only problem is the inability to beat Merfolk almost ever. I really want 2-4 Xantid Swarm in the board but this is literally the only matchup where its good! I suppose I could make room for 2x Swarm and replace a City of Brass w/ Bayou but .... I don't know. Maybe its worth it.
It feels excellent to put down some good results with DD again. I would highly recommend Helm in the main, its just so good. It won me some games out of nowhere and is just ridiculously effective! The only problem w/ Helm is that it adds a whole other degree of difficulty to the deck. The DD math that I have embedded into my brain has to be slightly altered as does the IGG loop. You can IGG loop w just 2x Dark Rit and an IT! It throws off mana costs but just take another 10 seconds, work the math out, then go with it. Thoughts?
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
This deck rocks, tis sad that most idiots cant play it correctrly. but whatca u do?
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
@ Pulp_Fiction: How are you liking the Sadistic Sacrament out of the board? Could you explain the practical uses for it, or is it mostly to steal win conditions out of random decks.
Are there any decks that Sad Sac actually takes the win conditions from, now that all of the storm decks play Burning Wish?
There is still quite a bit of Reanimator and combo in my meta. It also has its uses against TES since u could remove: AdN, Tendrils, and EtW, forcing them to get double BWish to get things going. Against Reanimatior I side it in since I will basically be wishing for Deathmark or trying to find bounce. Sad Sac adds another savage threat to them and acts as good counterbait or forces them to discard it from your hand over something more relevant in your hand. And against combo its just a serious I win card or a ridiculously good stall tactic (everything but Belcher). This is a meta slot though, if you don't see those 2 decks often I wouldn't bother running it.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
First of all let me say, that I think that everyone. who pilots this deck should build his list on his own. If that list works out well for you, stick to it, but I have several questions about your list. To break down your list in categories:
Business (9):
4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
Protection (6):
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
Mana Acceleration (16):
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Cardquality/Carddraw (9):
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Meditate
Lands (16):
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 City of Brass
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Shelldock Isle
Dead Cards (4):
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
I think you are playing way too much mana acceleration. There is no need at all to play this much mana acceleration, since you are mostly going off turn 3-4 and by then you should have at least 3 lands in play to pay for the costs of the standard piles. Mostly I only have/need one Dark Ritual to go off. I don't think those Cabal Ritual's are needed at all. This directly leads me to the second point.
I personally think that your manabase is horrible. Why do you play City of Brass? You are only playing three colours. My current approach on this deck plays four colours and I have no problems at all fixing my mana. Why are you playing the Basic Swamp over the Basic Island? The Basic Island is way more important since it helps you casting your cantrips pre-combo to fix your hand to go off. The one black mana as initial manasource never should be a problem. Hell since you only play three colours you could go for a manabase that could easily support Pulverize out of the board, which is way better than Meltdown. Another problem is that you only play 15 "real" lands. My current approach features 17 lands and Shelldock Isle isn't one of em. I had the feeling that I have to mulligan too often due to not having the right amount of mana on my opening hand. Ever since i added the 17th land, I didn't had to take a single mulligan due to not having the right amount of mana on my hand. Since you only play eight cards (Top and Brainstorm) to fix your hand, you are either really lucky with your landdrops, or you mulligan quite often, or you have sick shuffle skills.
A solid three colour manabase could look like this:
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
There at least three red lands needed to support Pulverize. If you want to play 17 lands, you could add another Underground Sea.
Another Point: Why are you still playing Meditate over Idea's Unbound. Here in europe most pilots have switched to Idea's Unbound, since it's most of the time way better than Meditate. You wrote that you were one mana short in several games and Helm of Awakening won you these games. Let me say that Doomsday piles that contain Idea's Unbound mostly need one mana less than piles, which are using Meditate. Also piles with Idea's Unbound are creating at least the same amount of storm than Meditate Piles. I personally don't think that there is any need to play Helm of Awakening.
Here is my list for reference:
1 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
3 Daze
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
3 Duress
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Doomsday
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hull Breach
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Shelldock Isle
Last edited by flrn; 10-06-2010 at 06:59 AM.
I would say we have a drastic difference in playstyles. Some like the slow setup approach and I personally want to build a more aggressive and diverse build.
I am playing the right amount of mana acceleration for me. Everytime I ran 2x CRit I still had mana problems whether I played 15 or 17 lands or 2-4 Ponders. I could not pull off playing as little acceleration as u do and I don't ever want to rely on hitting land drops after 2, rather I would like to just have additional acceleration. I regularly get Wastelanded and would rather rely on my acceleration to get me out of there and be explosive rather then rely on my opponent not drawing multiple Wastelands (or Loam recursion) and stopping me from comboing off OR subject myself to almost instant losses to a turn 1 Moon effect. This is the configuration that works for me. Also, I only have 2 dead cards, Emrakul and Tendrils. IGG (especially when playing CRits) wins games out of nowhere or if in the opening hand can mindtwist the opponent. Rarely am I upset to draw IGG. Same with Helm, everyone seems to assume that its a dead draw ... not at all. This card allows the deck to be even more insane and win through additional hate cards. Rather than find answers I can play around most anything aside from Null Rod. Helm also turns off Sphere effects .... just something interesting and it makes you win out of nowhere. Whether people think it is good on paper or not, try it out, I really enjoy it.
I assume you are the person on the stormboards who can't imagine playing the deck without 4 Ponders. I don't like Ponder nor want it. Just a preference thing, I have never had problems playing as much dig as I do. However, the reason I have success with builds like this is that I mulligan VERY aggressively. I don't ever keep hands of all acceleration and Brainstorm, but I will keep all accel and Top. I have no reservations about going down to 5 but I also know when to keep risky hands.
I have never ONCE had mana problems with that manabase. Works for me. I love City of Brass, and here is why. I have the worst luck u can imagine, I'm like a negative rabbits foot. So I just assume that I am going to be mana-screwed or Wastelanded down to 1 land, enter City of Brass. I don't worry about making more than 2 land drops when I have City, I never have mana problems. Don't like the manabase, don't run it. I run a Swamp because I don't ever want to see a basic Island. I have 7 blue cards .... why would I want an Island, much rather have a swamp to start casting rituals. Playing 17 lands feels very excessive to me. 16 is fine, and my meta has a lot of Reanimator and CB, Emrakul in the main is great and Shelldock by itself acts as another shuffle effect for Top if you are stalled and randomly wins games when you put a cantrip under it. Unless it is in my opening hand (chances are small) I am usually happy to see Shelldock. And with the additional acceleration, it makes Shelldock even less of a problem in your hand. Its all player preference, Cook runs 13 lands in TES and feels it's excessive, I run 14-15 and feel it's barely enough. All preference, but 15 lands is not excessive at all, every 1/4 is a land.
As far as Meltdown goes ... its a preference thing. I just assume that against Stax I'm going to get wastelanded and won't really have access to 2 mountains that easily. Save for the rare situations where I have 3 Fetchlands in play and can BW for Pulverive without being Wastelanded in the process. Meltdown can be cast off of acceleration and a single land if need be. Thats the only reason I play it. Everything I play always assumes a worst case scenario and the opponent has exactly what they need, so I play cards that I think give me the best odds of making it out of nearly any situation.
Those games where I was 1 mana short were where I was casting MULTIPLE non-acceleration spells before DD and I CRit into it, Helm turns it into a DRit! I don't like Ideas Unbound. That simple. It nets you negative cards and makes you play a Ponder/SW. I have won NUMEROUS games based on the all-in Meditate play but I also have played Meditate go against a lot of stuff. I have tested IU before and I just don't care for it, I much prefer Meditate, and with the additional rituals, I regularly have 2-3 when comboing off and need only a U to cast Meditate afterward. I think UU puts more of a reliance on LEDs. And now that I am considering splashing green I would really not want to worry about always having LEDs to cast it. Sounds like City of Brass would be quite good here :) Also, I have found very little difference in the mana requirements of both while Meditate stacks regularly give me just as much of more storm.
I really like this build and people keep taking Helm the wrong way, its just an additional out adding further versatility to the manner of ways you can can beat the opponent and their hate cards. Perhaps I play DD very differently than you do. I couldn't imagine ever wanting Daze in my hand since I won't ever play reactive protection spells, but if it works for you, play it. This is why I like playing the build that I do, and if you have any doubts shuffle it up and test it, you may be surprised.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Well as I said in the first sentence of my post. I think every Doomsday pilot has to build his list on his own, since there are a lot of different approaches to the deck. Your list just looks so "black", that i had to write down my thoughts on it and ask you how you feel about some choices, even though I'm almost certain, that I couldn't play your approach of the deck. You may be right about the drastic difference in playstyles.
And yeah you are right, Ponders have been really awesome for me. I consider it a really good choice in a Doomsday build, even though i often find myself boarding three of em out, since deckspace is tight. I'm sure your manabase works for you. But as I said, I don't like to mulligan, because i don't have the needed mana on my opening seven. But if you are as aggressive as you say, why don't you play Gemstone Mine instead of City of Brass. After all, Doomsday still costs you half of your life and your total lifepoints are quite precious pre-combo. That's why I'm thinking about playing the fourth Duress instead of the second Thoughtseize in my list.
You can also go all-in with Idea's Unbound, since the discard effect takes place at the end of the turn. With my manabase it's no problem to cast Idea's Unbound and then go off, since I normally hit all my landdrops until turn 4 or 5. And as you can see, most of my lands are producing blue mana. There's only 1 Bayou and 1 Badlands, who don't produce blue mana. That's why I don't heavily depend on Lion's Eye Diamond to cast the blue stuff after Doomsday.
How many storm does your standard pile produce after you casted Doomsday? I'm mostly using those two piles:
With SDT in play:
Idea's Unbound, Lion's Eye Diamond, Street Wraith, Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish
With Ponder/Brainstorm in hand:
Idea's Unbound, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ponder, Burning Wish
Both piles need three mana (1st one: 1UU, 2nd one: UUU) and create storm 6 after Doomsday.
Oh and Daze won me several games Especially post-board people wan't their protection pieces to hit the table as soon as possible. They get greedy. Daze is a card, which punishes greedy opponents. Dazing the second turn Ethersworn Canonist just feels that good.
I adjust the piles as needed but the stack I use most often is: (Top in play) Meditate, LED, LED, Petal, Burning Wish which creates 7 storm after DD and only costs 2U after DD.
Without Top in play and BS in hand it depends on how many cards I have in hand, but assuming 0 I will build something like: Meditate, Petal, Ritual, Ritual, Tendrils which creates 6 storm after DD and only costs 2U after DD.
The mana requirements for Meditate are way better than IU I think and I still keep coming back to the double ritual thing and only needing U after DD. Not saying it is better but I find it is easier to cast when an opponent is actually doing stuff to disrupt your game plan.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I played this to 3-1 today in the MTGO Daily event:
3 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Orim's Chant
3 Silence
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Ideas Unbound
SB: 1 Meltdown
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Cloud of Faeries
SB: 1 Wipe Away
My loss was to a mono black discard deck that had Thoughtseize+Specter turn 1 in game 1 and double discard + specter by turn 2 in game 3. I beat Imperial Aluren, Dredge, and Death and Taxes.
FWIW, I won with Med/LED/LED/Wish/Wish as a pass the turn pile twice. Against Death and Taxes, Ideas Unbound would have been a mana cheaper to Chain of Vapor the Runed Halo while comboing, but I had a spare 3-4 mana anyway.
Meditate and IU tend to have the same CMC to win, but in a deck with a large amount of black mana from Cabal Rits, I find myself with BBU a lot. I won at least one game today due to being able to win with CRit->DD then use an island to cast Meditate after SDT. Meditate actually drawing 4 cards was relevant twice and the card advantage let me pull ahead in an attrition war both times (vs Aluren).
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Interesting list.
I always thought you were an 8 Duress kinda guy, apparently not.
Was the 3/2 split between Tutors good?
I love how you squeezed 14 cantrips into this list. Looks pretty sick.
Played the deck today in our local tournament with my list some posts above this one with the following changes: - 1 Underground Sea, + 1 Volcanic Island and in the board -1 Hull Breach, + 1 Pulverize.
I'm just wondering if you guys go for the Emrakul Plan against Enchantress if you keep a slow hand, since Enchantress has that 1-off Karakas. I had to face Enchantress in two rounds today and while I was doing the Emrakul Plan against the first opponent (won me the game), I didn't brought it in against the second opponent. I lost against the second opponent. since I couldn't find a single cantrip in five round, where I was holding the kill, but didn't had a card to draw myself into the pile.
Also TES is a sucky matchup without Chants, since I have to make my deck worse. Due to him playing Chants, I have to bring in Swarms.
Why does this matter against Enchantress? Just build a pass the turn pile. Not like they have pressure.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
It was a build including Living Wish, so a pass the turn pile would have been too risky, since he easily had those 4 mana to go: Living Wish -> Canonist/Teeg. Since I had no cantrip all game, I also couldn't replace a cantrip card in a pass the turn pile with a bouncespell.
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