Is DOJ Standard legal?
Yes, that's sandbagging. I still don't understand how you can lose to that though, if it truly is Standard UW control.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
Hey guys,
short report from a tournament on sunday. This was by far the strangest tournament I have ever played.
Round 1 UWb Landstill
He wins game 1.
I win game 2 very fast.
I win game 3 with an opening hand: Mountain, Lackey, Port, Port, Wasteland, Wasteland (after mulligan)
He had: 2 Wrath of God, 4 Plagues, 3 Humilty postboard.
Round 2 Dredge (with LED)
In game 1 I beat him down to 2 Life in turn 3.
He then uses 4 Trolls for Breaktrhough, finds 4 Bridge from below, but only 2 Mobae. In Short: he took me down 7(!) turns later.
I win game 2 because he has no Bridge, no Therapy and no Ichorids among the first 30 cards he "dredged"
Game 3: Leyline, scoop.
Round 3 TES ( a friend of mine)
Game 1: he doesnt take this game too seriously nd wins on turn 9 after several mistakes.
Game 2: Chalice (drawn on tunr 3 after he had turn 1 and 2 Duress) + Earwig Squad
Game 3: Chalice + Earwig Squad
Round 4 Aggro Elves
I win game 1
He wins game 2
In game 3 I have mulligan to 6 with : Perish, Perish, Kinesis, Kinesis, Vial, Port. I keep because his special list is rather slow. All 4 Massremol hit him in the curse of the game, taking down 3-4 Elves each. He wins, because the only creature I draw is MWM.
Round 5 Naya Zoo
Game 1: I have 3 AEther Vials, He hasturn 1: Hierarch; turn 2 Woolly Thoctar; Turn 3 Jitte equipped to Thoctar, beatz. I win game 1 although Jitte grew to 6 counters on it.
Game 3: lackey --> SCG, scoop.
Round 6 Enchantress
I win game 1: Mountain, Lackey, go. Lackey beats in turn 2, he sets his lifecounter on "19" and ask: What does that Goblin Lackey actually do? >.> Lackey into Warchief, play Piledriver. Turn 3: Landdrop, Matron, Piledriver, attack for 19.
Game 2: turn 2: Chalice@1, Turn 4 Chalice@2
Round 7 NQG/b
Game 1: mull down to 4, lost.
Game 2: Start with Leyline, Perish hits. He kills me with tons of SMother, Edicts, Hydroblasts and 2 Dark Confidant >.>
Conclusion:
Many though MU, few good players. I was very lucky. My philosophy is:
You need either luck or Brainstorm. I have luck, so I play Goblins.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
To bad that loss to Elves... =/
Do you like CotV against Enchantress? What you take out for them?
Mind posting current list+sb?
Thanks.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
//Lands [22]Originally Posted by ScatmanX
5 Mountain
3 Badlands
6 Fetchies
4 Waste
4 Ports
//Core [26]
4 Vials
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 SGC
//Flex-Slots: [12]
3 Gempalm
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Stingscourger
4 Mogg War Marshal
//Sideboard [15]
3 Perish
3 Leyline
4 Chalice
2 Earwig Squad
2 Kinesis
1 Sharphooter
Against Enchantress I can board out 5 cards, because they are plain useless: 3 Gempalm, 2 Stingscourger.
So I can bring in 5 cards against them: 2 Squads, 3 Chalice.
I like Chalice @1 since it stops Elephant Grass and those mana-enchantments (Sprawl, Wild Growth). I played chalice @2 simply cause there was no other card on my hand (other than Lightning Bolt). But I don't think it's that great if you don't have enough pressure. I'd never keep a hand just because of Chalice.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Sup guys, I've been playing Vial Goblins for like 1 year and i've finally got into a solid (but pretty much standard) list.
Here's what I'm playing at the moment:
Lands [20]
4x Wasteland
16x Mountain
Creatures [32]
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Goblin Chieftain
2x Stingscourger
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Lightning Crafter
Spells [8]
4x Lightning Bolt
4x AEther Vial
Sideboard [15]
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Blood Moon
4x Tormod's Crypt
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
2x Goblin Tinkerer
I've always been into mono-red lists because they're pretty much more explosive. Vial Goblins is an explosive deck, so, in my opinion, Rishadan Port's Lock and other color splashes are kind of not useful, or even slow. I think the only acceptable splash is green, because of Perish and Krosan Grip, but with my tests, I've been finding Blood Moon very useful against many Threshold decks, Stax decks (mostly whitestax), heavy control decks like UWx Landstill and etc... Well, I won't really talk about Thorn of Amethyst, Tormod's Crypt and Goblin Sharpshooter because they're pretty much powerful standard sideboard cards.
Ah, forgot to say: All the enchantress decks just gave up when I played Blood Moon. It's just awsome.
Well, enchantress has Elephant Grass, with can give goblins a headache, but uh, with no Serra's Sanctum, they can't really pay that upkeep cost.
I've tested a black splash for Earwig Squad and some other black goblins. Well, I've realized that killing your opponent is faster than taking some cards from his deck. And, as you can see, I run no fetch lands neither dual lands. Reason? Making the popular Wasteland a dead card against the deck. You know what I'm talking about... 80% of Legacy's decks runs 4x wastelands, and having only basic lands is pretty much all you need for your mana base, since goblins play arround 1 or 2 lands easily.
Ah, Lightning Crafter... Merfolk's Nightmare, period.
Hope to recieve some critics/advices.
@Vandalize
U do not play ports and no MWM and you still don't play Warren Instigator? You even play Lightning Bolt, if i where you i would take out -4 Gempalm Incinerator and +4 Warren Instigator. Gempalm dont do much against the deck you want it against without MWM. Also with only wasteland as mana denial you can afford playing Warren Instigator.
Or you take out 4 mountains and play 4 Rishadan Port. The port is a really über card if you have Lackey or Vial in play, and then i would take out 4 Lightning Bolts for 4 MWM.
If you have a premium membership to starcity here is an article about goblins that was pretty lol worthy. The fellow thinks piledriver isn't worth a four of because it only really shines against merfolk. He has the fourth in the board.
I'm p new, so take what I say with a lot of salt. Here're my thoughts:
Goblins aren't the MOST explosive deck out there, and in many cases, it's absolutely essential to keep the opponent off their mana or a certain color long enough for your guys to get through before a Wrath/Humility/whatever comes out. With fetches and duals, it's not really any slower (barring enemy Wastes). Resilience to nonbasic hate is great, but the inability to switch to playing more controllish limits its flexibility and you're stuck playing beatdown.
Black is prolly the best color to splash, just for Warren Weirding - a tutorable, Ringleader-able, nontargeted removal for that pesky Progenitus or whatever. Earwig Squad is great for ripping out key combo pieces that you might have a hard time racing. Perish is nice as well, and personally, I really like Wort for recurring whatever I need and beating for 3 each turn (too bad she's a removal magnet).
Not a fan of Lightning Bolt maindeck since it dilutes your Ringleader targets and Gempalm/Stingscourger/WW usually get the job done while being Goblins.
I think Chieftain's one of the weaker "main" Goblins and prefer not to include more than 1 or 2, since he doesn't really provide anything incredibly useful - just a little pump and backup haste-enabling where Piledriver would do more damage or Warchief would provide more utility. Unless you frequently encounter things like Engineered Plague.
If you're looking for more explosiveness, maybe Warren Instigator?
and I always thought Goblin King was funny with Blood Moon.
Well, ive seen some goblin decks that only runs 2 Piledrivers, but those decks play more like a controll deck rather than an aggro deck.
GoboLord:
Do you have any issues playing 22 lands and 4 ports? I have been messing around with the land/port count for quite awhile and can never quite settle on what I think is best. I am currently testing 3 ports and 23 lands, which sometimes feels like too much land. 22 lands and 4 ports felt like not enough red. I was thinking of trying to get away with 22 lands and 3 ports next time. I love the idea of the consistent land control that 4 wastes/4 ports bring but the one red, many colorless land draw situations can get dicey. Interested to hear your thoughts and overall results with those numbers.
Also, how did you find the 4 war marshalls? I tried that out one week after losing in semis to zoo, and of course played no zoo next time. Have they been pulling their weight in the long haul?
Finally, what did you think of the bolts? Superior to wierdings in that spot?
Overall, it seems like your list is very anti-zoo between the 3 bolts and the 4 mwm plus 2 stingers. Its impressive that you beat zoo even with 3rd turn jitte out. I'd be very interested to hear how you think that slant affects your other matchups.
I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I personally run 3 War Marshals and have found them amazing against Zoo. In addition I run 3 Chieftains main, which makes War Marshal's into 4 power for 2 mana, with haste-its simply amazing. I use to run Warren Instigator in that slot because it went nicely with Chieftains, but Instigator fails pretty hard late game unless you've got an overwhelming board position anyway. I replaced them with War Marshals and have never looked back. My list is extremely anti-Zoo and I've won more than 70% of my games against it, if not higher. My list for reference:
MD
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshall
3 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain
SB
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Boartusk Liege
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon
How are mono-red lists different (when it comes to explosiveness) from lists with B or G? Most of the MD cards are the same. changing 2-4 cards MD doesn't make any difference for it's explosiveness. I'd like to hear it if you don't agree.
I see no point in playing mono-red other than being less vulnerable to wasteland and Stifle, but...c'mon that isn't a issue for goblins. talking about 80% decks with wasteland is not the best argument, since 85% of the decks are playing Islands (which are nearly as threatening).
I agree with all of your points... though the topic of Lightning Bolt vs. Weirding leaves room for discussion
I don't think playing Ports should influence the total number of lands you play. So far I've been playing either 0 or 4 Ports. If you run 4 Wastes + 4 Ports you have to be very carefull about the color requirements of your MD cards. I even had a 3-colored list with 4 Wastes 4 Ports and it wasn't much of an issue. In my paricular decklist there are no cards (other than core-stuff) with more than one R in their manacosts. Overall I think that the manadenial is really worth "crippling" your deck. You simply don't need cards like Warren Instigator, Wort and CHieftain. They are (as Caspid said) weaker "main" Goblins.
MWM came in to make things easier against Zoo. But in the course of several tournaments I raised their count form 1 to 2, then to 3, then to 4. They are totally insane with Gempalm and Piledriver. Plus, swarming your opponent with MWM makes it easier to get your Earwig Squad prowled. Last, they are helpful against Dredge, since they blast up Bridge from Below.
Weirdings vs. Bolts...hmm difficult topic. So far I didn't regret it, but there will be games when I will.
I play Bolts over Weirdings for 2 reasons: First, with 8 colorless nonbasics MD I want to keep my MD mono red, for not getting screwed. When you overload your deck with non-basics, opponent's wastelands can indeed be a problem. That's why I play Bolt, because I can fetch to basic Mountain in game 1 without having any disadvantage. Second, I hate making Goyfs bigger with Weirdings. Most of the time you lift them up to 5/6 (because you add Sorcery AND Tribal), and that's the point when they become nasty monsters. Without Weirdings they rarely become bigger than 3/4 and are therefore (in combination with chump-blockers) in range of Lightning Bolts.
Although that's not the reason I'd play Lightning Bolts, they have 2 nice side-effects: First, they are great against any other fast aggro deck (Zoo, Merfolk, Mirror, Elves) and second, you can burn your opponent down with them.
Well, as I said before: some choices were made to beat Zoo more easily. But Gempalm + MWM, Stingscourger and Lightning Bolts have other advantages. Overall, they improve your aggro MU and IMO you don't miss any card MD that would improve other MUs. Like Chieftain, Wort and Instigator, there are other cards that in my eyes simply do nothing to improve anything. Several pages ago someone listed up successful Goblin strategies. I noticed that splash-colors didn't seem to play a role, since each and every combination had success. Also this guy pointed out that those lists either run lots of removal (8) or produce lots of Goblin tokens (2 SGC, 4 MWM). I simply build a lists that combines both aspects, since I don't see any point why that should be a problem. I added black as splash color only for sideboard cards. It's not the splash that should define which cards we play in MD and SB but it's the cards we want in our optimal MD and SB that should define the splashes we play. I think the fact that we play any splash color should not "force" us to play Wort or Weirding or Tin Street Hooligan or whatever.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
@GoboLord: How do you side against Zoo and Survival Vengevine?
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Zoo:
<-- 4 Piledrivers
--> 2-3 Perish, 1-2 Kinesis (depending on number of G creatures)
Vengevival (suppose we lose game 1)
<-- 2 Stingscourger, 1 MWM
--> 3 Leyline
If I expect enchantment hate in g3 I change:
<-- 3 Leylines
--> 2 Squad, 1 MWM
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Pretty much. Wait until they wipe the board, then go ahead and play him; with luck, he'll be tapped out (common enough in standard) and you can refill your hand and bash for 2. But, Anarchy is probably a decent option, as it blows up all their problem stuff, and has applications against Enchantress decks and Progenitus as well.
I play 4x Lightning Bolts and 4x Gempalm for one reason...
Lightning bolt can open the path for Lackey, which actually is the best starter. Moreover, lightning bolt is a great card all game.
I've been in matches where it was decisive. Example: a stax deck, you start off punching in the face, and he stabilizes at 3 or 2 life.
You can't really do something against Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle when they're both in play. Here's where Lightning Bolt shines bright.
Gempalms, in my opinion, look like this: "Cycling 1R: Draw a card.... When you cycle Gempalm Incinerator, you can kill target Tarmogoyf in play."
Gempalms have a great synergy with Mogg War Marshal, but it's not really necessary to play both cards.
Against combo, thorn of amethyst is really the best choice imo. Earwig Squad is just too slow for combo decks like ANT and Belcher.
(at least, the ones I played used to combo turn 2). Even Pyrostatic Pillar is better than Earwig.
Now, about Warren Weirding... I've never seen a fast Progenitus deck, they're usually control ones. The thing is, progenitus is just one creature (a big one, i know) and when it's in play, you usually have 10+ life (that gives us two turns). On those two turns you can smack him (unless there's some Propaganda laying arround).
Another big boss I'd like to talk about is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.
It can duplicate a lot of big goblins like Piledriver and SGC (or even lackey, if you need).
It's not the fastest thing ever, but it can help in a several games, maybe...
@ Vandalize: Hi, welcome to TheSource.
Try using the Edit button to avoid double posting.
And the Search button to find stuff like this:
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Squads are great, and I'd include them both games.
Leyline makes me angry. I'd run Crypt or Faerie Macabre. Leyline has screwed me over too many times.
GoboLord has explained why he runs 3 Leyline of the Void in his Primer, translated on the post #5324 in this thread, part 4, section A.
I do not agree it is the best choice, but apparently works for him.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
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