Yeah, 49% chance of getting it in the first 7. What I don't like is when my first 7 are Lackey, Weirding, Piledriver, Ringleader and land, and number 8 is Leyline. Now I'm being punished for keeping an otherwise great hand, and any GY hate would be better. That's it. Leyline is a bad card for Goblins since so much relies on mulling to a 1 drop. You gotta be pretty unbelievably lucky to get a hand that lets you start with a Leyline and a 1 drop, so I play Crypts and Faerie. Seems better, no?Originally Posted by ScatmanX
In my current monored list I play 3 Faeries and 2 Crypts. =]
(While in black I prefer Extirpate or Planar Void)
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Planar Void is a bomb, it has such little drawback for us in black (none if you don't run Wort) that it's worth the one mana. It's infinitely better than Leyline if you draw into it. I think that gives it enough of an edge to nullify a 1 CMC in matches where you side it in. Besides, against dredge, you're probably going to be on the play anyway ;)
Also, as a sidenote, if it gets chain of vapored you can recast if they don't go off. Good luck doing that with Leyline lol. :P
Well, the translation is way to messy to make clear what I think of Leyline. Here is a somewhat shortened version:
Leyline of the Void –
If you want to play Leyline, you have to be good enough to beat the opponent without it. I'll explain this rather debateable thesis. Leyline is the only available GYH that is completely useless when it's not on your opening hand. Well, of course there are situations when you don't have it. The chances to are:
with 3 copies
no Mulligan: 36,89%
Mull 6: 31,33%
Mull 5: 25,88%
Mull 4: 20,52%
with 4 copies
no Mulligan: 49,18%
Mull 6: 41,78%
Mull 5: 34,50%
Mull 4: 27,36%
This means that it's not unlikely to start without Leyline. This refers to the second part of my thesis: "...you have to be good enough to beat your opponent without it." . This refers to (1) your skill with Goblins and (2) your experience with your opponent's deck.
(1) Good players can win without GYH. If it weren't so, Goblins would never win game 1 against e.g. Dredge, Aggro Loam or Survival.
(2) If you pratice certain MU frequently, you learn how to do the best possible moves at any time, almost without thinking much. Plus, you get to know your opponent's deck and know what possible moves he can make at any time. Dredge in particular is hard to follow when your opponent plays in highspeed, not letting you time to disrupt him.
Conclusion: Who wants to play Leylines should be prepared for high levels of frustration. The decks I just named are hard to fight, but winable. Thus, Leyline should be seen as an additional threat for them, not as an "all-or-nothing-wincondition".
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Your only variable here is the skill of he Goblins player, while in reality you are playing a mostly non interactive deck against Dredge; especially game 1. If you are not interacting with your opponent your skill isn't extremely relevant in the matchup. Practice, or no practice. Aggro Loam and Survival are another story, but Leyline isn't a card you use against those decks in the first place.
If you want to prepare for turn 1 or turn 2 kills you start packing Leylines. If you're going that route you should probably packing more then just 4 GY hate cards. It is by far the most effective GY hate card but also one that's dead when you draw it.Conclusion: Who wants to play Leylines should be prepared for high levels of frustration. The decks I just named are hard to fight, but winable. Thus, Leyline should be seen as an additional threat for them, not as an "all-or-nothing-wincondition".
The only argument youre making is that Leyline of the Void is bad for applications it's not intended for in the first place. Skill isn't relevant in this argument.
If you're not preparing for matchups that will kill you turn one or two through the graveyard then Leyline is just a bad choice to pick and other options (crypt, relic even bog) are much better.
Why play Leyline if you can do the same job with Tormod's Crypt? Leyline can be a very dead card, and it forces people to mulligan.
Tormod's can really deal with dregde. Yes, they can play arround it, but their combo is at least delayed for some turns. In my opinion, keeping yourself alive is enough.
I've seen some dregde decklists with Wispmare in sideboard. Your lovely Leyline can go to GY in turn 1.
What a surprise, dredge prepares for the most common hate cards against it? It's accepted knowledge that leyline is more debilitating than crypt against dredge. This much we know for certain. Whether one is more consistent,or how much that consistency matters, is up for debate. Honestly all the talk about GY hate in every thread is a little meaningless. Many people will have different opinions and you can never really prove one card better than another, such is the nature of legacy's diverse card pool.
The same is true for Ancient Grudge vs. Tormod's Crypt. Only that Crypt allows them to dredge and then flashback Grudge, while Whispmare has to be drawn. And you should notice that GY hate is not only about beating dredge.
@ FoulQ: True.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Bold part is so true.
Leyline is a bomb against Dredge, but it's worse than any other GY hate against the other decks.
I don't want to use cards that are that narrow, that's why I use Relics + Crypts (Maybe Nihil Spellbomb will replace Relic. Maybe.).
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
If you're in black, there's no reason not to change Relics (if you play them) for Nihil Spellbomb.
They won me many games against Dredge, where simply no other card would have won.
Also, no one names it with Cabal Therapy...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Why? Is it that important that you don't remove your own graveyard? Relic of Progenitus is better in all other aspects than Nihil Spellbomb.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
With Nihil you don't have to wait until turn 2 to remove your opponent grave from the game. With Relic you do.
Edit: And what GoboLord said in the next post.
Last edited by ScatmanX; 09-28-2010 at 05:29 PM.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Relic costs 1 Mana to activate, Nihil Bomb gives you 1 Mana. The fact that it's black doesnt matter since you can treat it as 1 colorless in a mono red list.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Still, it is very important to discuss GY hate because GY recursion is the only way other decks get card advantage on Goblins. It's true. Sure there's the occasional Standstill, but the only way for other decks to consistently draw and play more cards than Goblins is through GY recursion, which is why hate is such an important part of the sideboard, and is open to so much debate. Goblins outdraws every other deck in Legacy (Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm MD for 12 cards that draw a card), and it cheats cards into play more frequently (Lackey, Vial, Instigator). All the decks that try to play fair can't keep up. That is why GY recursion is at the core of many prominent decks' strategies. Outside of Goblins and ANT GY recursion is essential for generating card advantage.
Now the question becomes: How do you minimize your opponents' card advantage while maintaining your own?
Clearly the answer is GY hate that disrupts your opponents' game plan without disrupting yours. This is the litmus test which I try to use in deciding my sideboard.
So, which cards pass the test?
Leyline of the Void absolutely shuts GY recursion OFF. It just kills it. Unfortunately, this power comes with the caveat that you must mull to it, and the very act of sideboarding it in means you've committed your gameplay to a strategy based around mulling to it. If you don't mull to it, it will be a dead card on the draw. By siding in Leyline you commit yourself to keeping a bad opening hand with it, or mulling away otherwise playable hands in order to get to it. Once again, if you side in Leyline but keep an excellent opening hand without it, you've just created 4 dead draws in your deck. Then Leyline will not disrupt your opponents' card advantage, and you will lose card advantage.
Tormod's Crypt and Faerie Macabre disrupt GY recursion. They are free to play, and you do not have to mull to them. They won't completely stop GY recursion, but they can usually hit the necessary pieces to keep your opponent from gaining card advantage. Essentially, they allow you to keep strong, aggressive hands without Gy hate because you know that once you draw them they'll still be playable. Also, because they are free to play they won't slow your board development.
Relic/Extirpate/Planar Void/ Nihil Spellbob are all inexpensive types of GY hate. You don't have to mull to them, but playing them will disrupt your board development. AKA you will have to choose between a t1 Lackey or Planar Void. Additionally, these cards generally require that you keep mana available in order to cast or activate them. This too slows your board development, costing you card advantage. Also, many of these require black mana, which will on rare occasions prevent you from playing them. Having a dead card in hand does nothing to stop your opponent's card advantage GY recursion, and certainly doesn't gain you any card advantage.
A lot of people have said that GY hate really comes down to a matter of personal taste. I disagree. It seems clear to me that Crypt and Faerie have the best synergy with a Goblin deck. You don't need to mull to them and you don't have to keep mana open to cast or activate them. This allows you to play out your deck like it's supposed to be played. Mountain, Lackey, Go.
In my opinion Nihil Spellbomb is worse than Tormods crypt because it costs 1 to cast and another B mana to get its full effect while Crypt costs 0. So is 2CC 1B worth what crypt can do for free?
Also Relic of Progenitus is much better than Nihil Spellbomb because:
1) It costs the same.
2) It has the same activation cost but is colorless so much more flexible.
3) Removes all cards in all graveyards and you also get to draw a card as well.
4) Relic has the added ability to tap and remove a card in thier graveyard every turn until your ready to sac it for full effect.
So to the whole Tormods Crypt vs Relic debate:
Tormods Crypt Pros:
-It's free at 0cc
-It's the most efficient graveyard hate (debatable to Leyline)
Tormods Crypt Cons:
-Its the most expected so no surprise factor so decks prepare to see it
-It only removes one target graveyard
-It's not as efficient against Tarmogoyf
Relic of Progenitus Pros:
-More surprise factor so less likely to get Cabaled, Needled, or other types of hate
-It removes all graveyards
-Can stay on the table and remove a card every turn from opponents graveyard
-You draw a card after sacing
-Its the best of the two againt Tarmogoyf
Relic of Progenitus Cons:
-It costs 2 total for its effect so much more investment
-Its alot slower than Crypt in the early game
But without black, you don't draw a card, and at that point, crypt is strictly better. Spellbomb seems like a halfway point between crypt and relic, in that you can pay a total of 1 instead of 2 like with the relic, but skip drawing a card. Or you can pay 2 just like relic (but requires an early badland) and draw a card. The downsides for this potential mana saving is that you don't nuke both GYs (worse vs goyf), and that you don't have access to relic's incremental removal over multiple turns.
I suggested that, IF someone was already playing Relic in RB goblins, Nihil would be better.
Also, people, read Nihil Spellbomb, please. It is: 1 to play, and you don't have to pay 1 more to activate it. So it IS faster than Relic.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Tormod's Crypt lets you remove the opponents' graveyard just as fast as Nihil Spellbomb, and also lets you play Aether Vial, Wasteland, or Goblin Lackey in the process. This makes it the clear winner in mono-red.
As for Black-Red, why's nobody mentioning the Vial-friendly Faerie Macabre, or the more face-wrecking but less nifty on a topdeck Leyline of the Void?
Maybe we should make it more clear...
Cost to play & activate Crypt: 0
Cost to play & activate Spellbomb: 1 (without draw effect)
Cost to play & activate Spellbomb: 1B (with draw effect)
Cost to play & activate Relic: 2
As you can see, Relic is the slowest, artifactbased GYHate available, while Crypt is the fastest. Spellbomb is in between and is "modal", you can draw a card with it if you're Rb and if you can accept some loss of speed.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
Most of what you say is true, BUT...
you do not have to mull to Leyline.
That's exactly what I said in my post:
Against decks you would bring Leyline in (Lands, Dredge, SUrvival, Aggro Loam) you should by no means mull to Leyline because you can simply keep hands that are strong enough even without GY hate. Thus, you just go for your 1st turn Lackey/Vial and have an additional threat (namely Leyline) to be on your opening hand. I would NEVER keep a hand only because of Leyline. So, either you have a great start and have Leyline, or you have a great start without it. Those decks are beatable with and without GY hate.
Topdecking Leyline is avoidable since you can use your Ringleader to stack them on bottom of your deck. btw. I'd advice not to play a full playset in SB - on my last 8 tournaments I had only 3 copies in order to keep this "dead-card-factor" low.
Faerie Macabre and Crypt are dead cards too when you don't have them in turn 1-3, cause that's the time when their GY becomes ugly.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
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