Hey guys,
As much as choosing a good list, knowing and understanding correct lines of play is critical to success with CBtop. Since the last several pages have been mostly just lists, I wanted to pose a couple of scenarios to the CBtop community to gather feedback on what people would do once they're actually forced to use the cards they spend so much time choosing.
Depending on how they're received, I'd be willing to continue posting scenarios (most of them real, from games I've played) and encourage others to do the same. With such a decision-heavy deck, it's not uncommon to have multiple valid lines of play that all lead to game losses and a single, possibly unintuitive play that gives you the win. I personally learn much more from watching and listening to others play real than I do from reading lists with unusual choices explained.
Situation 1- It's a pure theory question, but one I'm not sure I know the answer to.
Your opening hand is Volcanic Island, Tropical Island, Misty Rainforest, Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm (you keep), versus an unknown opponent G1 on the play.
The question is what are your t1, t2 plays? Obviously if your opponent has a relevant t1 play (wasteland, Duress, etc.) it will change what you do. The point is to understand the theoretically correct opening given multiple relevant options and no prior information on your opponent.
In my opinion, this is one of the most decision-heavy hands you can draw and as long as you've got CB, top, Brainstorm, exactly 1 fetchland and some other cards, the exact contents aren't too relevant. What I mean is, this hand is pretty common and requires more thought than I think a lot of CBtop players realize.
The easiest play would be Volcanic, top, go. Tropical Island is never correct because you don't know if they run/ have Wastelands in their deck/ hand. Most people who do will blindly waste your first land, which itself is usually a mistake against an opponent who keeps their 7, but you don't want to be wasted off relevant (G) mana (for the goyf in hand) and the fetch would be better saved for either a basic or if you need to open another color (like if you draw Swords). T1 top is obviously a strong play, but there's another one that I think is almost always correct.
Instead, you could play Rainforest, go. At their EOT, you'll crack the fetch (probably for a basic Island or Tundra, assuming their first turn was innocuous) and play Brainstorm. The reason you played the fetch was to dodge that t1 Wasteland. It's irrelevant what Brainstorm finds, you'll put back Tarmogoyf first and any other card on top. You'll draw the top card during your turn, putting goyf on top. T2 your play is Volcanic, Counterbalance, go. This leaves you in an extremely strong position; it's the only play that guarantees wasteproof t2 CB, even encouraging your opponent to sandbag it if they've got it. You also guarantee countering their 2-drop if they try it (goyf on top), giving you the opportunity to play Top next turn with mana up. Wasting a shuffle effect kind of sucks, but you don't want to shuffle anyway once you've set up CB and the classic t1 Top, t2 CB (assuming you kept your land) still forces you to blindflip. This can be relevant if their play is Pridemage, Confidant, Survival, or some other 2-drop you can't afford to resolve.
I'm sure there are other valid t1, t2 plays from this hand (though I don't think any includes a t2 goyf, including an opponent's t1 Mountain, Lackey, go). I'd be especially interested to hear people's thoughts on this hand, since it's probably the one I think about the most without ever having an especially good answer to.
Situation 2- Came up for me today during the Legacy side event at WizCon.
You're in G1 against Merfolk. His board is 2 Islands, Mutavault, Vial @2, Tarmogoyf, Lord of Atlantis. He has 4 cards in hand and 2 Cursecatcher and Daze in the 'yard. Your board is Counterbalance, Top, Tarmogoyf and 4 lands (one of each colored dual + Island). Your hand is Jace, Fire/Ice and Brainstorm, with Counterbalance, Fire/Ice and some fetchlands in the 'yard. He passes the turn and your EOT top finds Force of Will, Vendilion Clique, Counterspell.
The question is, beginning with ordering them correctly and continuing through your upcoming turn, what do you do?
Given I didn't have time to poll the Source, this was my decision: order them (from top to bottom) Counterspell, Clique, Force. I drew into CS during my turn (Clique on top) and passed. During his turn he attempted Merrow Reejerey, which was countered revealing Clique. EOT I spun top, seeing a Tarn 3rd down. I put it on top, Force second and Clique on bottom. During my turn I played the Tarn, attempted Jace (resolved) and fatesealed for the win.
The reasoning behind CS on top (after first spin) was because I knew I couldn't draw a 5th land and didn't want to run Jace into Daze. I assumed any relevant 2-drop would be played through the Vial, so CB@3 vs. Reejerey was the play while I could still have Counterspell up for any must-counter. It also gave me mana for F/I, Counterspell or both, or one + EOT top. Putting FoW second (after Tarn) next turn gave me the option for protected Jace that would've needed double Force, triple Daze or Force+ double Daze to beat. In hindsight I think this was wrong because a Standstill during his previous turn (instead of Reejerey) would've been pretty bad and would've forced me to re-spin, then activate Top to stop it. Drawing Force may have been better, closing off 3-drops and 2-drops not done through Vial.
The difficulty with the hand was being presented with multiple valid lines of play in a fast-closing window. Choosing to play draw-go during a crucial turn, let me set up a protected Jace through multiple threats. LoA online with only Fire/Ice to stop it could get really bad really fast, especially if his hand has some gas. Since Fire/Ice, Clique and Jace all offer their own pros and cons, the choice wasn't necessarily clear-cut. Would you have played differently?
Great success!
I would lead with volcanic island pass, and then do nothing unless they duressed me or I need to brainstorm into force or something. I really hate brainstorming when I have no idea what I am playing against. What do I do if my opponent goes misty rainforest, pass? You play a suboptimal brainstorm, which is not always incorrect but I believe with so little information, it is. On my turn two I would play a fetch and pass. Presumably by turn two I will have enough information to brainstorm, put back my two worst cards and shuffle. This also plays around daze nicely which could be devastating on a turn 2 counterbalance. I think after this the possibilities of what could be played and draw are too many to theorize further. Another line I could see is turn one volcanic go, turn two trop, top, go, eot top, then misty, counterbalance with brainstorm up.Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat?
Going first
T1:volc, top
T2:rainforest go. Eot on their turn brainstorm, pop forest. Spin top.
T3:Land, Cb go.
My two cents. Maybe I'm too passive, but that's assuming daze aswell.
@Situation 1
I would lead with Volcanic, put Goyf on top EOT and play Counterbalance with the 2 duals next turn. This way you can play top on turn 3 and almost be sure to keep 2cc spells blocked since you have the fetch. If you used the fetch already, there is a higher risk of losing to Survival, Standstill, Pridemage etc. if you don't find a 2-drop in your top 3 cards. This hand seems pretty Wasteland-proof, so I don't see the point in playing around the potential turn 1 Wasteland.
I think your decision to draw go (situation 2) was the correct one. Having mana up for emergencies when you are not under pressure is usually correct. Anyway I can see you have been testing with Fire/Ice. How has it been for you? Just curious. :)
In situation 1, I would lead with volc, top. Then fetch T2, eot storm and fix hand, crack fetch and top. (same as Mizeri) Then T3 balance. Of course if I knew I was playing against storm combo, I'd keep mana open T1 for the emergency brainstorm if the opponent decides to go for it Turn 1. I almost always never play brainstorm T1 anymore, unless I'm under pressure to find a Force.
Interesting mix of answers... I see most people are more loathe to use early Brainstorms than I (the "Sacher Effect"?). Next time this hand comes up in a local, I think I'll give it a try with a more passive play and see how it turns out. Clearly everyone values information over speed given an unknown opponent. In my defense though, there are a bunch of t2 plays just can just wreck you (or specifically, me) if they resolve and you can't find (or don't MD) an answer to. I think my top 3 right now would be Survival, Mongrel and Confidant. Clearly that gimmicky Vengevival deck has had its influence. I'll try to think of some other interesting scenarios that came up today, but unfortunately 3 rounds is kind of anemic.
For reference, I'm playing Matt Sperling's list from the GP, -2 Predict +2 Fire/ Ice in the main and -1 Firespout -2 Meddling Mage +3 Ensnaring Bridge in the board. Fire/Ice is no longer among my flex slots, but a permanent choice in my maindeck until something replaces it. Rather than being the weakest slot (as Predict), it's now tied for weakest with Counterspell.I think your decision to draw go (situation 2) was the correct one. Having mana up for emergencies when you are not under pressure is usually correct. Anyway I can see you have been testing with Fire/Ice. How has it been for you? Just curious. :)
However, Fire is good in our bad matchups (Goblins, Merfolk and until I figure out how to beat it, Vengevival). It hits a ton of cards we either don't want to see (Confidant, Lavamancer, Hierarch, Lackey, Cursecatcher), eases pressure on your removal without forcing you to blow a Firespout and can often set up 2-for-1s. The Ice side is also great against a handful of cards that are annoying to the point where they're a problem, like Rishadan Port and Trinisphere (especially Port, since Goblins can easily waste/tap down your R sources until it's too late). Sometimes it's dead, yes, but the ratio of matchups where it's good:bad is pretty much the exact same as Counterspell, except opposite. It still doesn't solve the problems I've been having with (mostly) tribal and Vengevival, hence the Ensnaring Bridges (replacing, previously, Peacekeeper... total disappointment thus far).
Great success!
Spell snare hits most of the broken turn 2 plays.. Lol. Spell pierce and daze also work well. And fire patches up the lacky and confident problems. I hope that with the top and the brainstorm you could pull something out. Maybe not a cat tho.. Needs a bigger hat.
F//I seems decent. I'm still playing Tom Martell's original 60, but I think I may try it in place of the O Ring. Everyone has a way to remove the ring these days, and additional 2cc spells are always welcome. Add Pridemage and LoA to your list of targets.
Got anymore teachable scenarios? I'm actually learning a lot from these responses!
I'm glad to see the uptake of Fire/Ice. I've been playing it forever and its been working well for me. Yeap looking forward to situations. Countertop is tricky to play, and I still make mistakes in unfamiliar situations.
Somehow I didn't think they'd receive so many responses so quickly... like, in under 24 hours. I'll have to be more diligent about recording tight decision points in the future and hopefully I'll get some this weekend on the way to a t8 finish at the Vestal power tourney. In the mean time, I'll see if I can find/ remember enough from a previous game to put up a third scenario by the end of the week. If anyone else has one they'd like to share, by all means feel free.
Great success!
For now I think I'm going to try 3x Peacekeeper in my board, which I think should be a valid solution for awhile, seeing as they have no way to deal with besides trying to stop it from getting into play in the first place.
Back to the scenarios:
The reasoning in one is seriously flawed. Why? Because if they waste your turn one land, then you're just starting the game over. You still get to a T3 counterbalance (which in this case is just like a T2 balance) if you really want it, since you have 3 lands. Besides, wasting your land first turn is usually good for you anyway.
Now, this is a tough decision against an unknown opponent. The lines of play are very tough depending on who you're against. Now, you probably don't need to play top first turn, as if you need to assemble balance lock top on turn 3 will almost function the same as already having it on turn one. I think the best play is to play your volc and pass as well. This way you can brainstorm end of turn to keep your goyf second from the top, so that when you play counterbalance you already have a two drop on top. While you would like to save brainstorm to get other CCs on your library if possible, since you have a top and fetch there's a good chance you can find whatever you'll end up needing. Plus, if you're playing against combo saving your balance and top from duress is the strongest play for you. While using brainstorms early is not always ideal because of their lategame power, top is already diminishing the advantage it gives you.
Peacekeeper doesn't do well against stingscouger or a cycyled gempalm. Both are main in most goblin builds? Along with a sgc acctivation. Goblins are tricky little devils..
It was directed to his comment where he said, "and until I figure out how to beat it, vengevival". As it stands Peacekeeper is a fine option against them since they run no way to interact with it besides counters/trying to prevent you from playing it. It's certainly not great against goblins, but depending on your build it's possible it could be useful to attempt to buy you time. However, it's also very good against merfolk, as few builds run ways to stop it as well, and completely stops dredge. Seems pretty strong to me right now.
I agree it works well against vengevine and merfolk. All of dredges hate that removes jailer also removes peacekeeper? That's why I run one darkblast in mine. Along with the singleton firestorm. But countertop should answer that. Seems still good. I'm amazed how peacekeepers came out of the wood work after that starcity games article. Almost every deck that has white is trying to sideboard them it seems. Maybe its just me.
Yeah, I guess there is some hate for the peacekeeper in dredge, but I would still say it's useful against them at the very least. From what I've seen not a lot of dredge lists do run the creature hate, so I was basing it off that. I think it's pretty funny too that so many people are trying to sideboard them, but with the current meta of blue aggro decks that don't interact with creatures much it's a very strong choice. Since most decks running it are running Jace it puts the opposing player into a situation where they need to deal with peacekeeper or simply lose. Even if they have an answer, the control player is almost certainly putting that time to better use than they were, which makes it still useful.
Teferi's Moat? Lol. I think that card still sucks. Dunno tho. I like how hibernation has started showing up. Also clears survival and prog. Then you should have countertop running by then? Saw it in a few merfolk boards.
Wow. Nevermind. Bad moat costs too much. Thought it was 3. I need to read more!
Situation 1
Why don't you play fetch crack island top then u good againt waste land then turn 2 top balance
Because that would be the loosest play you could make. It wastes your shuffle, exposes Counterbalance to Daze, exposes your hand to t1 Duress and fails to guarantee a 2-drop on top during your opponent's second turn, when it would be most relevant. The idea behind having options is exercising them. Fetches, SDT and Brainstorm are all powerful cards because they give you more than decks without them have. By tapping out each turn and wasting your resources without purpose, CBtop just becomes a weak Bant deck.
I'm starting to like the idea of Volcanic, go more and more now. Without Firespout in-hand or an immediate need to find it, the power of tempting your opponent into a misplay (waste, activate, go) and taking your opponent's first draw back without risking a delayed CB sounds really good. Even if your opponent does something really awful (Trop, Hierarch makes me cringe now more than Mountain, Lackey or Island, Vial), you can still BStorm the goyf on top, dig for FoW, then go for the turn 2 CB if you're feeling lucky.
@Valtrix,
I'd be interested to hear what you think of Peacekeeper after you've tried it. I personally couldn't stand them because of Submerge. It felt like the upkeep cost always gave them enough time to find a protected answer and set up an alpha strike before I could Jace them out of the game. Peacekeeper may also become a victim of its own success (if not it's speed) as both decks adapt either by splashing white or running more cards like Submerge. If Ensnaring Bridge doesn't work out, I may be tempted to retry Peacekeeper if it turns out to be a decent catchall answer to both decks.
Great success!
My thoughts are that a card that forces them to have submerge or I win seems pretty strong. Submerge is somewhat prevalent, but not all that much so. I think that you'll catch a lot of people off-guard with it still. I like it way more than bridge, especially against UG vengevine they usually run trygon predator, which can easily sneak under, and it doesn't help you quite as soon. But we'll have to see how it tests, maybe it's not as fantastic as I could hope for. As it stands it seems like my most promising board card for Vengevine Survival, Merfolk, and Dredge, while having uses elsewhere as well.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
