[Deck] Naya Midrange * Big Zoo / Naya Horizons *

[troopatroop]

By request, I'm writing a small primer on Naya Midrange due to confusion in the Zoo thread. There are some fundamental differences in strategy that separate the Zoo deck from the Big Zoo deck, which makes it impossible to talk about this deck in the Zoo thread in DTB. I'd first like to showcase a few decklists. These lists made top8 at Japan's legacy championships with 174 players in the mix, and one of them won it.

http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless/AMC/index_e.html

1st Place

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Skarrg, the Rage Pits

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SB:
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt

7th Place

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Path to Exile
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sylvan Library

SB:
2 Path to Exile
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm

So obviously, when you see these Zoo lists, a few things stick out from the start (aside from splashing blue for MM, wows)

- Noble Hierarch : Hey wait, I thought this was a Bant creature? What's it doing in Zoo?

- 4x Knight of the Reliquary : Isn't Zoo only supposed to play 2 of these? Don't they cost too much to play more?

- Wasteland : If Zoo is color hungry enough already, how am I supposed to fit in Wasteland?

- Elspeth, Knight-Errant : Seems good... but 4cc?!?!

Traditionally, Zoo is always thought of as a fast aggro deck. This is especially true for decks playing Steppe Lynx and Kird Ape/Loam Lion. While these cards put on some pressure early, I was often disatisfied with drawing them after the first few turns. I also played a great deal with Steppe Lynx, and grew to despise the hoping and praying for Land off the top. Yes these guys hit for quick damage against combo, or hold the line well against Goblins and Merfolk, but think about where Zoo is positioned in the Metagame. It already does well against Merfolk and Goblins and loses to fast combo with Kird Ape/Loam Lion all the same, although Steppe Lynx does give you more of a chance. What Zoo really wants to have strength against is Control and Zoo, while maintaining great numbers against Merfolk and Goblins. Wild Nacatl is also much stronger than either of those 1 drops, and has the early game situation under control. Not playing these 1 drops (or Fireblast/Jitte/Helix) gives you more room for different cards, and this deck puts on some weight.

Big Zoo

4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


The differences of Big Zoo to Zoo * More cards at 3 and 4cc * Noble Hierarch/Wasteland subtheme *Emphasis on winning the Mid-Lategame

Noble Hierarch: He isn't much of a threat on his own, but he has been simply amazing in practice for me. He gets you to 3 and 4 mana much faster, which really helps in casting our bigger guys. When coupled with Wasteland, you're going ahead in mana while the opponent goes down. This makes our threats even harder to deal with for our opponents, gives you "tempo" to attack, and generally allows us to dictate the game. Exalted also matters alot as we're often swinging with a single big creature. Some people see this as only a Bant creature, but that is shortsighted! I play 3x because I can still open them frequently, but see them less in multiples. Golden against mana denial and counts as a mana source. Integral to the deck, and often MVP.

Knight of the Reliquary: The primary winner of games, this deck can support 4x because it plays Hierarch. You really want to see this guy against Control and Aggro/Control decks, because you're going to get to 3 mana eventually. She is the best threat you could ask for, and matches up with the other monsters of the format nicely.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant: Elspeth is not made possible SOLELY by Noble Hierarch, but it's really close. Traditional Zoo decks cannot sucessfully play Elspeth because she costs way too much. Noble Hierarch on turns 1 or 2 really strengthens Elspeth, because it's effectively one extra turn to make or jump a dude. That can be game changing, and don't forget about Exalted. Those tokens are swinging for 2-5 damage after exalted and a jump, and we play Defense as well as any other deck. I've fallen in love with Elspeth for this deck, both the 1/1 and +3/+3 flying are great.

Wasteland: This card is played in every Legacy deck that can support it, and for good reason. This particular deck is one that really loves its Wastelands. They feed Knight or Lavamancer. They can screw the opponent on an important color of mana, manascrew them completely, or nuke an important nonbasic. They give you an extra attack when you have creatures in play, and add value to Noble Hierarch.

These cards add some very different lines of play onto the already stellar early game of Zoo.

Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Wasteland, Pridemage/Tarmogoyf/Sylvan Library

Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary

Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Pridemage/Goyf/Library, Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning/STP

Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Nacatl, Pridemage/Goyf/Sylvan Library

Turn 1 Nacatl, Turn 2 Hierarch, Wasteland, Attack for 3

Turn 1 Nacatl, Turn 2 Hierarch, Bolt/Chain/STP, Attack for 4


The rest of the cards are also in the Zoo deck, and should need little explaination.

Wild Nacatl: Should need no introduction. She is the #1 reason to play this color scheme. I think this is one of the best creatures in the format, and our main weapon in the early game. Very good at capitalizing on any tempo you might gain with Hierarch and Wasteland, and often swings in for 4 with our 7 exalted creatures. An extremely strong creature.

Qasali Pridemage: Amazing utility creature! Spectacular against Control decks. Has been performing for Zoo for a long time. Not much else needs to be said here, Pridemage is good.

Tarmogoyf: The best green creature, and an amazing wall. 4x, Enough said.

Sylvan Library: The closes thing to Brainstorm in Green! :D I love this card, it smooths your draws, and draws cards when your life total is safe

4x Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning/Path to Exile : 1cc removal. Ensures that you'll never pay more to get rid of a creature than someone paid to play it. These cards give you the edge against Merfolk and Goblins, and generally define the mirror. We play the full 12

The package of 1cc/2cc creatures and removal is there just to survive the early game and put on pressure. Once you get through that, you should have done enough damage to close it out with some fat. That is the decks gameplan, and it does it extremely effectively. Note that this is a large difference between this deck and traditional Zoo. We share a plethora of cards with that deck, but our gameplan is much different. They might play 2 Knights, and that's it. This is because they play more aggressive 1drops (Steppe Lynx, Kird Ape, and Loam Lion), and without Noble Hierarch playing 3cc cards is unwise for Zoo.

It is my opinion however, that Knight of the Reliquary, and Elspeth are important enough to justify Noble Hierarch's inclusion. Forget about all his applications with Wasteland if youd like, or Casting multiple things on turns 2-3, and making hands easier to keep (which are all great). Noble Hierarch is basically just Birds of Paradise with Exalted, but allowing these threats to come into play a turn earlier is good enough on it's own. The faster you can play these cards, the better they become, and they're already massive in their own right. Massive things win the Counterbalance and Zoo matchup, and also do work against Goblins/Merfolk. This is the Big Zoo philosophy, trying to eat the widest margin of the metagame that it can. What people fail to realize is that this deck is not worlds slower than traditional Zoo. You still get the best creature at 1cc and all the other Zoo weapons at your disposal, but also solidify your chances in the Late game. I like this plan, feel free to try it out! :D

*Matchups and Sideboarding* (will get to this soon)

So in playing Big Zoo, I've also had a fair bit of time to critique the deck myself. There are a few things I grew to dislike

- Grim Lavamancer + Knight of the Reliquary

- Path to Exile + Wasteland

It became clear that these two disynergies existed, but there was nothing I could really do about it. Grim Lavamancer was stellar against creatures and really solidified my Goblins and Merfolk matchup. Path was integral to winning damage races, and STP doesn't play well with Grim Lavamancer as far as "reach" in concerned. I began to play without Grim Lavamancer in the deck, with Terravore in it's place, and with STP over Path. This is greedy against the creature decks, taking out the Wizard for a 3cc guy, but I found that my deck only got better against Control decks, and that I still had all the tools I needed to dominate the aggro decks. My LD plan got stronger without Path, and I was never afraid of not being able to finish the game after giving them Life. Terravore + Knight of the Reliquary works for New Horizons, but what about Naya?

This is a Zoo/New Horizons hybrid, inspired by the Noble Hierarch driven Big Zoo deck. The goal of the deck is to get ahead in mana, remove the blockers in your way, and play bombs to finish the game. This is the list I've been testing.

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy


The deck is very similar to Big Zoo, but it plays 6 big monsters instead of 4. Terravore is straight out of the New Horizons playbook, but it feeds off the environment so nicely right now. Trample is important, because you're getting another form of reach ( in exchange for Grim Lavamancer). Without Lavamancer eating lands out of the graveyard, you never have to worry about shrinking your fat, and STP can safely replace Path. You might scoff at the lack of Grim Lavamancer, but I still think the aggro matchup is favorable with our creatures and removal. If these are already positive matchups, shouldn't we look to beat up on Control and Aggro/Control even harder?

I'm interested mostly on what people think of the Big Zoo deck in general. Hierarch is only a small bit of innovation, but it significantly alters the deck's gameplan, enough to warrant a seperate thread of discussion. I've been seeing more Hierarch in winning Zoo lists as of late, so I'm anxious to see what people think of the deck. Is this a natural progression for Zoo in post Mystical Tutor Legacy?

[Antonius]

has loam ever been a consideration for these sort of decks?

[Pinder]

Loam seems really really slow, and doesn't really do anything for the deck's gameplan other than recur Wasteland. It does make Knight and Terravore bigger, but they get planty big enough without it so it's basically just win more.

I've always thought that non-Nacatl one drops just weren't as impressive. Nice primer, and the deck looks solid. Because Heirarch is already in there, do you think that splashing blue like those Japanese players did is worth it at all?

[troopatroop]

Loam seems really really slow, and doesn't really do anything for the deck's gameplan other than recur Wasteland. It does make Knight and Terravore bigger, but they get planty big enough without it so it's basically just win more.

I've always thought that non-Nacatl one drops just weren't as impressive. Nice primer, and the deck looks solid. Because Heirarch is already in there, do you think that splashing blue like those Japanese players did is worth it at all?

I've done well with it, Meddling Mage is very good right now. What ruined it for me was the blue duals, too inconsistent. It's definitely worth it if you expect alot of combo, and he's also good in control matchups. It's good against Vengevine Survival too, but so is Pithing Needle. In the end I favored the better manabase. It helps alot against Merfolk and Goblins.

[Grillo]

As I'm one of the supporters of the Big Zoo deck I'll share my list with you all:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37532
The sideboard is not correct though. I played 2 Pyroblasts instead of the 2 Fireblasts.

Here is the list if you don't want to go to deckcheck:

creature [22]
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

instant [10]
4 Lightning Helix
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares

enchantment [2]
2 Sylvan Library

land [22]
2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

planeswalker [4]
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

60 cards

Sideboard:
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pyroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt

15 cards


I know this is not the now "typical" Big Zoo list. But it adds diversity to the topic.

I'm not playing this deck because I think it's better that the regular Zoo. In fact I think many Naya color variants are really valid decks and I've played quite a few. But because it's consistent, fun and powerful and it suits my style of play.

What things I think are good about Big Zoo:
- More resilient to mass removal.
- It lets you actually develop a game (going into mid-game).
- Better topdecks.

Things I miss from regular Zoo:
- Knowing for sure that I'm the aggro deck (except maybe against Goblins).
- Stealing games because I drew a God hand.

[keys]

With the Big Zoo/New Horizons hybrid, you're trading a conflict between Grim Lavamancer and Knight for a conflict between Swords to Plowshares and burn. I don't see how that is any better.

IMO, Wasteland isn't a reason to cut Path to Exile. Wasteland is useful against utility lands, but I'm not convinced mana denial is a viable plan for Zoo. There's no way to capitalize on your opponent's mana screw apart from the natural "tempo" gained. Zoo doesn't play Daze, Spell Pierce, Chalice of the Void, or Trinisphere.

Moreover, Swords to Plowshares just doesn't make sense in an aggro deck. (a) It restricts your ability to finish the game with burn. (b) StP is better in control decks that need an efficient way to remove every kind of threat. Zoo already has burn to take care of smaller creatures. That leaves fat like Knight/Goyf/Terravore, Tombstalker, Dreadnaught. 1 basic land is much easier to handle than the 5-12 life StP would give your opponent.

[troopatroop]

But that is much smaller of a conflict, we don't need our burn spells to lower their life total. There are only 8 burn spells, and they're meant for creatures. We get Knight of the Reliquary/Terravore and Elspeth for reach cards. It really hasn't been hard finishing the game for me, and burn is rarely in my hand at that point regardless. STP is a much better card than Path, and Noble Hierarch is stellar with Wasteland. Wasteland is just so powerful, I really can't think of any reason not to play it, and especially with Noble Hierarch in the deck already. What is the basic mountain for?

[nedleeds]

How about Armageddon in this type of deck. I've had success with mid-size naya builds and used Armageddon instead of 4 walkers (running only 2 Elspeth, and 2 Armageddon). This allows you to move Wasteland out (as much tempo as LD). I was also running Figures and not Nactyls.

[ivanpei]

I'd actually play armageddon in the board if I had the space. However, you'd want armageddon against control decks (which are typically blue), and in that case, choke > armageddon as its one sided and costs 1 mana less. Armageddon MD is ok, but you are not always ahead. Against Bant Aggro, you are usually the one on the backwards board position due to their warmonk, tarmogoyfs and KOTRs. Wastelands are good in this deck. I played them and love them. 3 IMO is the right number with 20 coloured lands. We rarely mana screw people with wasteland but putting opponents a turn back while your kitties/goyf beat face is reason enough to run it.

[GGoober]

Looks like a solid evolution of Zoo. Although it seems to be a bastard child of New Horizon (I advocate Noble Hierarch builds of New Horizons not running Terravore) and Zoo mixed together. Not sure if it will end up being truly successful since it can't focus on the mana denial as New Horizons does, nor can it kill as fast and put opponents on a risky life that affect gameplay like Zoo does

However, I do agree there's reach, but I think since it's a new deck, there's a lot of room to further evolve.

KotR.dec have been pretty popular these days, don't forget that the maindeck/SB can accomodate a valuable Karakas against Emrakul/Kira (bounce fizzle then bolt Kira, not that Merfolks is a bad matchup for Zoo lol) decks.

[nedleeds]

I'd actually play armageddon in the board if I had the space. However, you'd want armageddon against control decks (which are typically blue), and in that case, choke > armageddon as its one sided and costs 1 mana less. Armageddon MD is ok, but you are not always ahead. Against Bant Aggro, you are usually the one on the backwards board position due to their warmonk, tarmogoyfs and KOTRs. Wastelands are good in this deck. I played them and love them. 3 IMO is the right number with 20 coloured lands. We rarely mana screw people with wasteland but putting opponents a turn back while your kitties/goyf beat face is reason enough to run it.

I can see that all being valid. I'm not sold on Choke though, Grip and Predator are rampant where I am. I suppose Boil could be a board option. I think if you commit to running 2 Sylvans and 4 Hierarchs the allure of Armageddon is there even in a neutral board position.

I suppose there are times Ajani looks better, and times where Armageddon is GG.

[Grillo]

I'm going to a tourney this saturday and I'm expecting to face at least a couple of Vengevine-Survival decks.
At the moment I'm only packing "traditional" graveyard hate in my sideboard (crypt + faerie macabre) and some Krosan Grips.

Does anyone have some experience playing against Vengevine-Survival?
Will graveyard hate be enough?

I'm not expecting to be able to race the Survival deck, so I'll be needing some tools to win.

Suggestions are very much apreciated.

[keys]

I wouldn't sideboard too much graveyard hate, because they can still beat down with Jitte. Faerie is better than Crypt since you don't have to pass the turn with it on the table and expose it to artifact removal. Pithing Needle might be the best anti-Surivival card, as long as you can protect it from Predators and Pridemages.

[Grillo]

I took the exact same list I posted earlier to a 42 man tournament and placed 2nd.
I beat vengevine-survival, eva green, regular zoo, merfolk (many of them).
I ended 4-0-2 during the swiss finishing third.
Lost 2-1 to zoo in the finals. He played flawlessly and I didn't draw any removal in game 3.

I'll go into more detail later. I'm pretty tired now. I got 1 DCI Natural Order, 1 DCI Phyrexian Dreadnought and a sealed FTV:Exiled set. :D

Every game a Planeswalker hit the battlefield I won. They are that good.

Overall the deck performed great. It's getting some respect around here.

[jandax]

I used basically the same maindeck as posted in the OP yesterday to a scrub out over five rounds. I didn't punt anything, I didn't play flawlessly either, but I simply lost a lot of games because I was a turn away from lethal. Or perhaps a turn behind. It felt like the deck was good, but it was just one of those times where you lose good matchups.

[jedi_gof]

how come no one is considering maze of ith.
I played a big zoo recenty, and it is one of this decks MVPs!

with the knight it is soo awesome, you wouldnt believe it! Hope you are all aware it gives any creature vigilance? in attack step, after damage you can untap your critter/preferebly KotR and damage is still dealt! I played 1 main and actually another i could bring from the board, and it was awesome!

[Catitas]

the finals of coupe de france there were 2 big zoos in top4

[Grillo]

the finals of coupe de france there were 2 big zoos in top4

Catitas, do you have deck lists for that tournament?

I've found the metagame breakdown but I haven't been able to find any deck lists.

Meta:

Le Métagame :

14 Survival

9 Landstill
7 Goblins
6 Merfolk

5 Bant
4 Ichorid
3 Elves
3 Zoo
3 Rock GBw

2 Affinity
2 Threshold Ugr
2 Sneak Attack
2 Reanimator
2 Painter
2 Ad nauseam
2 Eva Green
2 Burn/Burn Rw

1 Mono Black
1 Show and Tell
1 BANT Loam
1 Doomsday
1 Faeries
1 GW Aggro/Maverick
1 Eternal Life
1 Fish BUG
1 Fish Uw


Par type de Deck :

40 aggro (24 %)
18 Aggro-controle (11 %)
12 combo (7 %)
9 contrôle (5 %)

[Catitas]

Grillo heres the top8 and the lists

http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/...98&format=T1.5

2nd place

http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=205862

4th place

http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=205865

Some interesting card choices in both decklists, and an anti survival sideboard...

[lordofthepit]

how come no one is considering maze of ith.
I played a big zoo recenty, and it is one of this decks MVPs!

with the knight it is soo awesome, you wouldnt believe it! Hope you are all aware it gives any creature vigilance? in attack step, after damage you can untap your critter/preferebly KotR and damage is still dealt! I played 1 main and actually another i could bring from the board, and it was awesome!

Can you actually target a creature with Maze of Ith after damage is dealt? That would be an interesting use.