As someone who has yet to take a side on the whole "Big Zoo" debate, I have a few thoughts:
I am intrigued by the direction because I think Kird Ape, Loam Lion, and Steppe Lynx are all a bit underwhelming. Lynx is too swingy (it's better in speed zoo and burn), and the 2/3s just don't have the same impact they used to. Figure of Destiny is nice but realistically cannot be played as more than a 2-of. Until we get another 3/3 for 1, Hierarch could be the next best 1 drop.
On the other hand, the mana and exalted from Noble Hierarch is always pretty useful. Being able to play 4 Knights of Reliquary and a couple bombs like Elspeth and/or Jitte is fantastic in the mirror and against other aggro. They also make the deck more resilient to Wasteland/Stifle, which you have to expect.
Altering the burn/removal package too much is a poor idea, however. 4 Bolt/3-4 Chain/4 Path is solid and shouldn't change. Swords are not wanted here since the purpose of Path is to get rid of things burn can't remove (e.g. fat green creatures, Tombstalker, Dreadnought). Giving someone 5-12 life is much more problematic than a basic land (if they have it).
I'm not a huge fan of Wasteland in here either, except maybe as a 1-of to fetch with Knight to get rid of Mazes, Tabernacles, and Glacial Chasms. The deck simply doesn't have a plan to capitalize on mana denial. Most decks that do, play Daze/Spell Pierce or Trinisphere/Chalice. Alternatively, 2-3 Horizon Canopies in a 21 land manabase (+ Hierarchs) is a good idea because it guarantees you'll be able to cast your bombs if you draw them, but also gives you the option to cycle if you don't.
If you try out a "Big Zoo" variation, keep these points in mind.
If anyone's curious what the list I'm testing looks like, here it is:
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Figure of Destiny
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
With 1/1/1 Figure/Espeth/Jitte I have 3 late game bombs but they're diversified, so I never draw doubles. I've commented on why I like Figure so much in the past, so I won't rehash, but the idea is that he swings in for 2 damage past Rhox/Nacatl/mini Goyfs when you have 3 mana open.
Sideboard
3 Pyroblast (not Choke because I want to hard counter Jace and Show and Tell)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrostatic Pillar (according to all my combo playing friends, this is the best option. nothing will stop them except for a faster clock)
3 Price of Progress (lands, control)
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Pithing Needle (Survival, Vial, Jace, EE, P Deed, etc. this card is hot right now)
My burn/removal package currently includes:
4 Bolts
4 Chain
3 Path
2 Fireblast
2 Helix
1 PoP
I was considering testing Arc Trail in place of the Helixes or the PoP. Arc Trail probably seems terrible because it only kills crappy dudes and isn't very effective when applied to the dome etc. There are quite a few relevant creatures it kills though, so you could always hope for the 2 for 1. Clearing the path for your attack is never bad, right?
Like I said, I don't expect this idea to be too well received but I still want to hear what you all think about it.
You don't think the 3 maindeck firespout is the biggest problem against Countertop? Rhox can be pathed, swords or REB. What is your answer for a quick efficient board sweeper?Originally Posted by Fuzzy
Mark of Asylum, of course.
No, seriously, there's nothing. For now, I couldn't care less about any deck with bad matchup against Merfolk and UG Madness. My best strategy is just avoid Firespouts in rounds 1-2 and keep winning .
My thoughts exactly, counterbalance will always be a big % of the meta, so its best to be prepared for them. I expect to see counterbalance with firespout even in the top tables. Don't leave home without the chokes. :) I don't really mind when opponents tap out to board wipe with firespout and I drop choke. GG friend.
To keep the heat down, either wait for or make a Big Zoo thread in the other part of the forum. I like your list and have carefully considered your post to implement into my own version of the deck, but folks seem to want this to stay the Traditional Zoo. I'm not hating here, just trying to prevent another page of fuss
Personally, I'd rather we not create a separate thread. LED and non-LED Ichorid are in different threads and the disconnect is really annoying. Besides, we're really only talking about a difference in 1 card here, so I wouldn't say "Big Zoo" is a new deck, just a slight variation.
I made a new thread in N+D, some discussion there would be cool. @Keys, I agree with alot of what you said, so thanks for knowing your stuff. The only thing we disagree on really is Wasteland, but I see the appeal of an even stronger manabase + Canopies. If you could take your discussion to the Naya Midrange thread, it would clear up confusion here.
I haven't played this deck since long before Columbus, so the meta has changed considerably since than. I've always wanted to try Burning Tree Shaman in this deck, and I think now may be a good time. I know that this was discussed a while ago, but the meta has changed since then. Shaman could get in a lot of damage against Survival, Goblins, and Merfolk.
Is it worth it to include Shaman?
What if anything would have to change about the deck to include Shaman?
Discuss.
BTS is amazing, and I think it could've warranted a spot in the deck for a little while now. I'd run it as a two of alongside KOTR. I don't mind having that many 3cc dudes in my builds though.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Maindeck Pithing Needle has been helping my Zoo list a ton lately. I've been able to steal more games from Survival, shut off Top against Countertop, protect fragile land openings from Wasteland, completely steamroll Goblins by shutting off Vial against mana-light hands, ditto for Merfolk when they don't get two Islands, and I even snagged a game against Belcher where they dropped it but couldn't activate it turn one.
For the record, this is my most updated Zoo list.
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
3 Sylvan Library
3 Pithing Needle
First time poster here, although i've been reading these threads for a few weeks now.
I specifically made an account to discuss a possible inclusion of Burning Tree Shaman, and guess what, someone posted the same thing a few hours ago :)
I also think that it would probably be ok to maindeck maybe 2-3 BTS in place of the KoTRs, since it will help you push a bit more damage from Survival decks, and not to mention vial decks and divining top decks.
Pithing needles i'm not too sure if i'd go for it maindeck, but due to the prevalence of survival decks, i'd try to squeeze in 3 on my SB.
I've also tried the big zoo lists, it did pretty well but i noticed most of my wins were from openings that are staple traditional zoo lists, and i dont think that it helps the hard matchups by a lot, and there were times the wastelands color screwed me. But then again, i haven't encountered any countertop decks when i was using it, so i'll test further.
BTS has been discussed a few months back for a few pages. Some of us here absolutely adore the guy, others can't see cutting anything for it. It's going to come down to personal preference.
BTS is great for all those things you mentioned above. He's also a decent body for 3 mana. So since there are about as many pros to cons, it sort of comes down to personal preference. However, if all you play against is Survival/Vial decks/CB-Top then BTS is looking pretty good. Especially in the big zoo lists as there is Noble Hierarch to get him out a turn earlier.
I don't agree that Burning Tree Shaman's going to be that big of a help against Survival. It's going to take them, what, five to six activations to launch a full Vengevine combo at you, assuming you get BTS down before they can even start with Survival? Then what? How many times do you think that five to six is going to make the difference when you've got quad Vengevines and two chump blockers on the board? 1 in 5, maybe, being generous, if your burn hand is strong?
And their fetchland activations, as well as your own, become Shocks. Various things in the deck are activated. It just enables a race scenario if you are already packing ten or more burn spells in the main deck.
I wanted to post the Zoo list I have been having success with in my area. It has taken me to a 11-1-1 record in the last two tournaments.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Quasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
SB
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
2 Umezawa's Jitte
This is obviously more akin to the "Big Zoo" deck, but it has served me well. In my opinion, aggro matchups (and certainly the mirror) are often decided by Knight of Reliquary, and to a lesser extent Tarmogoyf. The Terravore acts as virtual 5th and 6th Knight. The Grove combo, although fairly slow, gives you a solid late game plan against almost any "fair" deck.
The last cards in are the 2 Figure of Destiny. With Hierarch and the upped land count, it is reasonable that you will hit the 6 mana mark to go ultimate. However, it is entirely possible they should be someting like 2 Sylvan Library. I have never had great luck with Library, but I see it in almost ever list. It seems better suited to a so-called "Fast Zoo" list.
Zoo is ever evolving. But this version has been good to me recently. Maybe in the future, it will be better to ratchet up the speed again, but it does not seem worth it at the moment.
For people that have experience playing both Pyrostatic Pillar and Mindbreak Trap, which do you prefer, and why against combo; specifically ANT, Storm, Doomsday, Aluren and Belcher?
There is really only room for one of them in the board and when you are playing 3-4 copies, indeed, one has to get cut.
From a Storm perspective... I am far more irritated by a Pyrostaic Pillar than a Mindbreak Trap. The Trap is alot easier to fight through and dosn't even necessarily impact the game. At least the pillar will net you 2 damage minimum not to mention it is usually more and makes using AdNos nearly impossible if you have any legit pressure during the game.
Are you saying the MBT is more futile because of Orim's Chant and/ or Silence?
I like Mindbreak Trap because you don't have to reveal it, which is a valuable edge. Versus TES, they either have to make you discard or go for Ad-Nauseum. It also stops everything that Belcher can throw at you.
With hate bears and leyline, they just have to wish for the Deathmark or bounce. Pyrostatic Pillar is decent since it inflicts some damage no matter what, but it also hurts you, and that can put you in range of a mini Tendrils or small goblin army.
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