[Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm

[median]

In other news, changes I really feel compelled to make for the deck...

Assuming I don't change my board, -1 City of Brass, +1 Tundra. This is because I would really like to fetch W at the drop of a hat for chanting purposes.

Assuming I do change my board, I'm tempted to go -2 CoB, +1 Tundra, +1 Tropical Island. However, even I can tell that's not terribly exciting and could cause more problems than it could solve.

As for the changes I wanna make in the board, I *really* want to keep Blasts, but I also want to have 2-3 Xantid Swarm in the side against Merfolk. Bant, Vengevine Survival, Merfolk, and Zoo are the four most common placing decks in my meta, and Swarm can help me with all four (Although admittedly on a marginal level against Zoo.), while Blast is *very* important against Counterbalance. If only I could ignore the CB matchup, but alack and alas, while there are more Merfolk decks in my meta, Bant is still a force to be reckoned with.

I'm dealing with this right now myself.

the way i'm doing it is with this main,
1 silence
2 chant
1 pyroblast

And this in the side:


//side
1 flex slot
1 tropical island
3 xantid swarm
2 pyroblast
1 tendrils
1 empty the warrens
1 ill-gotten gains
1 eye of nowhere
1 shattering spree
1 diminishing returns
1 echoing truth
1 grapeshot

my boarding is pretty simple
counterbalance +2 pyroblast +1 e-truth
- 3 chant effects
against merfolk - 3 chant effects, +3 xantid swarm,
-1 city + 1 tropical

This lets me have xantid and pyroblast open to me as well as most wish targets, if I wanted to I could board in both pyroblast and xantid, and Echoing truth. I have no Idea what I would want that for. From my own personal experience Xantid swarm is better, but it really sucks when it gets STPed in the bant match, The way I have things set up now give me a lot of flexibility and some maindeck hate.

[frogboy]

How are most people boarding against Counterbalance? I can only really find room for about ten, maybe eleven protection spells; the only cards I really want to cut are a Ponder and a Mox and like I'm not even really that happy when I board out either of those.

[Tinefol]

5c TES made it to top8 in recent Topdeck.ru Open (biggest russian legacy tournament ever) with 93 players. Decklist is fairly common afaik.

[egosum]

Bryant Here you have the report.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[median]

How are most people boarding against Counterbalance? I can only really find room for about ten, maybe eleven protection spells; the only cards I really want to cut are a Ponder and a Mox and like I'm not even really that happy when I board out either of those.

I generally have 4+ pieces of Counterbalance hate. I normally swap out chants for pyroblast, but if I'm worried I'll cut a ponder and keep one in, if it's a deck that doesn't play wasteland, I'll cut a chrome mox for a chant effect. I never side out I'll-gotten gains against counterbalance because I don't have it main. If I did it would come out as I see it as a liability in this match.

That's my own personal strategy.

[DerFern]

I never side out I'll-gotten gains against counterbalance because I don't have it main.

yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense...

[Zunam]

I've been testing matchups with TES a lot lately, using Bryant's GP list.

Especially against the blue decks (Supreme Blue, Merfolk, UG-Vengevine-Survival) because they are beeing played heavily in my region currently.

While I have:

-a quite positive result versus UG Vengevine-Survival (3:7 preboard and 4:6 postboard in TES's favour)

-and quite good results versus Supreme Blue (5:5 pre -and postboard; almost only losing when they manage to get an early Counterbalance into play)

-I have major problems versus Merfok (6:4 preboard and 7:3 postboard in merfolk's favour).

For the merfolk matchup I was using Saito's UB list. Since I was reading a lot about merfolk being a good matchup (better than the counterbalance matchup) I wanted to ask for some tips.
Granted I am not the most experienced TES-player (or Storm-Combo in general) I have some experience with playing TES (the older Draw-4 lists), ANT and a bit of DDFT.

My major problems in the matchup are:

-Their Daze-effects (Daze, Cursecatcher, Spell Pierce) combined with their Wastelands became a huge threat. I am often one mana short of going off, especially if they have multiple of those effects. Waiting for more accelerations is often no option because of their clock and possibility to draw more Wastelands.

-The first issue often leads to situations where I have to go off without being able to play enough protection running into their FoWs.

-FoW is almost always active (which means it's easy to get second blue card into hand to actually be able to cast FoW). Standstill with an active clock helps them a lot, too.

-It's hard to predict what they might have in their hand. Not the best example because it doesn't involve the information you can draw out of the game's progress but basically a single blue land and a hand of 4 cards could basically mean that they are able to play Spell Pierce, Daze and Force of Will altogether easily.

Does anyone with more experience have any tips for me?

Is it better to go "All In" after a protection spell gets countered (I do this a lot against Counterbalance decks, because it feels easier to predict what they have in their hand for me). I tend to play more defensive against Merfolk.

Thanks in Advance

(I have also tried Xantid Swarm which is quite good against Merfolk. Of course the Black-Splash list has ways to handle my swarms more easily than mono-blue lists. But in general Xantid Swarm feels just not good enough in other matchups)

[lorddotm]

Lots o' Stuff.

I always like going for Empty the Warrens in the match. Preemptively Wishing for it helps a lot. I've never had a bunch of trouble doing that, If you have a lot of Rituals in your hand and aren't depending on LED to win. Try it out, I've had quite a bit of success with this strategy.

[maxflow2]

I always like going for Empty the Warrens in the match. Preemptively Wishing for it helps a lot. I've never had a bunch of trouble doing that, If you have a lot of Rituals in your hand and aren't depending on LED to win. Try it out, I've had quite a bit of success with this strategy.

Yeah, I'll do that too. They often don't counter the Burning Wish when we don't have mana for whatever reason, thinking we're just going to get Thoughtseize. EtW can usually outrace them - Pyroblast killing a lord can help a lot, forcing their Silvergill Adepts and Cursecatchers to trade with your goblins. Another common play that I find helpful is a preemptive Infernal Tutor for a Lion's Eye Diamond or ritual, especially after ripping a FoW out of their hand. With FoW being their only hard counter, often all you need is extra mana to pay for their taxing counters. If your protection spell gets countered, it depends a lot on the situation whether you should go for it or not. If it gets countered by FoW and you have an extra mana or two, then I think you should usually go for it (depending on cards in hand, Cursecatchers on board, of course), but you otherwise probably want some knowledge of their hand first.

This matchup gets a lot better, I think, if you're either playing Xantid Swarms or playing a 3 color list with basics. I don't understand why so many players seem to think this matchup is positive without either of those - I, for one, have not figured out the secret. I think it may be because Merfolk is such a popular deck so there are so many subpar Merfolk players and Merfolk lists running around. That, and it just seems like there's a natural tendency for everyone to underestimate Merfolk (myself included).

[lorddotm]

@maxflow2: Merfolk player usually don't understand what to do against us. Also, it seems like going for a fast win, even when you don't know what they have, it optimal. There is only a 40% chance of them having a Force on turn 1, so going for the turn 1 win is usually correct because you do not have a 60% win chance. But if you have a turn 2 win with protection, obviously that is better. Against blue it is about picking your moments when to go off

I looked back in the thread, and it seems like this list went completely unnoticed.

Milan (Ovino 5) 11.09.2010
- 347 players
3. Federico Bonadè

Maindeck (60):
Spells (45):
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
4 Rite of Flame
3 Orim's Chant

Lands (15):
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island


Sideboard (15):
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Flame Slash
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize


The fact is has two Ad Nauseam, Iggy main, no EtW main, 15 lands. As well as having a 3/1 split between main and board on IT. The list looks very suboptimal, but it did well in a large event...


Any opinions on this?

[Zunam]

Thank's for the tips on the Merfolk matchup.

I tried going the EtW route (getting EtW into my hand before going off) more often and it worked out well. I guess I was a bit too anxious using EtW in this matchup but it seems that they more often can't handle the tokens than they can summon a big enough army of blockers in time.

Running a 3 colour list as suggested might also be an option if the Meta is full of Merfolk.

[Seretur]

@lorddotm: hi, i'm the guy from italy who played the deck at that event :)


A premise: before june bannigs i was a ANT player (i finish 15th at GP Madrid losing the last turn of swiss) and went to TES in my search for a viable post mystical ban storm deck. So my style of play with this deck is closer to ANT or fetchland tendrils than pre Ad Nauseam TES.

I basically pick Cook's list and made some little changes to fit my game style and italian metagame:

+1 AN -1 ETW because 5 dmg or 4 dmg don't make so much difference while resolving AN and i'm always happier to draw AN than EtW. In my opinion 1 EtW in sideboard is enough to kill my opponent with goblins.

-1 mox -1 orim +2 Lands I really *hate* losing for mana screw... in Italy prison and tempo deck are always big forces in the meta so i choose to have a little more solid mana base.

-1 Infernal Tutor +1 Iggy : being a iggy player before becoming a ANT player (and now a TES player) i just can't play without this little friend maindeck. I understand the deck can work even without it but i simply feel safer with 2 iggy among maindeck and sideboard.


And sorry for my english .. that is very suboptimal :p

[maxflow2]

stuff

I saw your list on Morphling earlier. I happen to be a fan of maindeck Iggy as well (though I disagree with removing Infernal) - it just cements the matchup against aggro so much and it isn't half bad G1 against blue either when they don't know what you're playing. Even though you only really want it in your best matchups, I feel the percentage gained there is large enough to justify having it maindeck (though it is difficult to fit).

You mention that the 5 cmc of AN over EtW isn't a big deal - but combined with the 4 cmc of Iggy over Infernal, it kinda is, though. This is further accentuated by the removal of a Chrome Mox - I'm curious if you've had any trouble fizzling after AN with no mana/land drops remaining.

[egosum]

This is the link to the report of the other TES player that made top 8 at Eternal Weekend, it' s written in spanish.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[lorddotm]

This is the link to the report of the other TES player that made top 8 at Eternal Weekend, it' s written in spanish.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

/ / Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Bloodstained Look
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Volcanic Island
1 [A] Badlands

/ / Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [AER] Duress
1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [U.S.] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

/ / Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [U.S.] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [PT] Symbol of Unsummoning
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant


That is his list. How does this beat blue?

[emidln]

You hold back Duress effects until you actually need them. It's a lesson that a lot of TES players could learn, even the ones that run Chants or a lot of Thoughtseize.

[kilukru]

It's the number 1 advice I always gie to new TES player : it's not because you can go fast that your must be in a hurry.

Evaluate the game state, evaluate your possibilities, make a decision

[kiwi]

I have a doubt, When you have a duress in your hand and you are playing vs blue, what's better?

a) Waiting the turn that you are going to play the combo

b) Playing duress when you can (for example in your fist turn but your opponent has a tropical island in play and you are going to play ad nauseam later)

If you play dures one turn before playing ad naseam or some tutor your opponnent can put the counters on top of his library with brainstorm, but If we dont play duress fast may be that he plays a counterbalance. When is the correct moment for playing duress vs blue dcks?

[x8eikdls]

I have a doubt, When you have a duress in your hand and you are playing vs blue, what's better?

a) Waiting the turn that you are going to play the combo

b) Playing duress when you can (for example in your fist turn but your opponent has a tropical island in play and you are going to play ad nauseam later)

If you play dures one turn before playing ad naseam or some tutor your opponnent can put the counters on top of his library with brainstorm, but If we dont play duress fast may be that he plays a counterbalance. When is the correct moment for playing duress vs blue dcks?

Depends on the blue deck. If you don't have an answer to a resolved Counterbalance in your hand, Duress ASAP to try to nab it. If they don't play Counterbalance, you don't need to Duress right away. Duressing turn 1 isn't the greatest when you don't plan to go off for another few turns.

Look at your hand and figure out how you plan to go off. Duressing the turn you plan to go off is obviously the most optimal. If you have enough mana, do it. If you're forced to go off next turn (say lethal on board vs Fish), but don't have the mana to cast Duress + Returns or something in the same turn, Duress the turn before.

I rarely use Duress on turn 1 vs. non-CB blue decks if I don't plan on winning turn 2. Even letting Standstill resolve isn't a big deal. Playing draw-go and breaking it EOT with a Brainstorm the turn before you go off is generally fine.

[frogboy]

I've been considering a Simplify or Maelstrom Pulse in the sideboard to beat rawdog Counterbalance. If they just have Counterbalance, it's usually not the end of the world, but it can buy them enough time to find Brainstorm/Top/Jace which are all pretty hard to beat.