Im testing a 15 land set-up right now:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
I definitely believe that at least 2 Tarnished Citadels is the right way to go. I hate the damage sometimes too, but it's a necessary evil. On the other hand, I think 3 Citadels might be the threshold for too much damage, which is why Im running Undiscovered Paradise over the 3rd.
I think that Underground Sea would do his work too. Instead of the Paradise i mean. The only thing not to run it is that you can't use it to cast Tribe, Grudge and Firestorm. But the other spells and activated abilities can play/activated by u or b. With the Paradise you're not able to activate Coliseum in the 2nd Turn if you played PImp 1st Turn. With U-Sea you can. You can also cast Breakthrough, Study, PImp and so on.
I'm not a fan of the Paradise...
The fact that you cant cast Tribe, Grudge, Firestorm, and sometimes Ray is EXACTLY the reason why Underground Sea isnt used.
Getting Tribe or Pimp on the field is THE best thing for the deck. Without a rainbow land you can only cast half of those crucial 8 cards. Resolving Tribe or Pimp is far more significant than being able to cast Careful Study or Breakthrough because Tribe and Pimp maintain your dredging while Careful Study and Breakthrough cant sustain you unless you continuously chain into more of them. In games 2 and 3 having both red for Grudge and Firestorm and the W/B for Tribe and Pimp is insanely crucial.
Which of these two hands would you rather have:
Tireless Tribe, Undiscovered Paradise, Cephalid Coliseum, Dredger, Careful Study.
or
Tireless Tribe, Underground Sea, Cephalid Coliseum, Dredger, Careful Study.
You dont want to take chances and rely on the weakest card in the deck to be your only discard outlet.
1. You said the same that i said the post before...
2. I don't play Firestorm.
3. Paradise is definitely bad without Bloodghast.
4. Dredge is playable with u-Sea.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37973
It's not nessessary to play grudge. Unusual, but a nice list!
Last edited by Bischof; 10-15-2010 at 07:09 PM. Reason: Wrong link
Well....this is all about LEDless?? >:(
Some considerations about targets...I will not talk about iona and FKZ which wins games alone but about sphinx and E. witness!
Please stop overstime sphixs is good, really good, but E. Witness is insane. Did you noticed that??
It's very versatile since you can choose what retrieve to go off...Breakthrought (awesome), colisseum or even LED (if you have DA in yard or a colisseum + DA, this last one in yard). The only situation where witness is "useless" is when you are manaless (no lands, no LED in play) and you can't go off that turn.
Hmm I'm actually prefering undiscovered paradise right now as the rainbow lands 9-10. The bounce has rarely affected my tempo and really saved me alot of pain when racing. The bounce to hand has also been useful as a discard outlet. It's really useful to bounce it back to hand when you want to pitch something if your initial discard outlet gets forced. Food for thought.
I run 15 lands with 2 Undiscovered Paradise and 1 Tarnished Citadel. Like what ivanpei said, the life is important during a race with aggro.
I have a question regarding my list. I have no maindeck DR targets and a very standard list. Is it better to have 3 DR and 3 Careful Study or 2 DR and 4 Careful Study. I am also running 4 Ichorids but I think I will like to keep them as a 4 of.
I think 2 undiscovered, 1 tarnished is the best option for land configuration too. Ive noticed careful to be a pretty good card though it's not busted nuts like breakthrough. IMO careful 4 is more important than dread 3. I have my 3rd dread in the board along with the targets. Ichorids are the best cut if you are trying to shave for the 15 th land. I haven't had much trouble with mana using 14 lands though. I'll see how the 15 land configuration works.
The only time I struggled with mana with 14 lands is when I'm mulling a lot. I'm often mull down to 5 or something with no lands and can't get my dredgers into the yard. With 15 lands, I mull more aggresively and I seem to get a land and an outlet pretty often when I'm at 5 or even 4 cards sometimes.
I'm still not sold on the 15th land though. I found that what I really wanted was the 13th draw spell. The problem I usually encountered with opening hands was not the lack of land, its the lack of dredger + draw+ discard outlet + land combo. Lets have a look at the breakdown:
Land -14
Discard outlet - 12 (4 Tribe, 4 PImp, 4 Careful)
Draw- 12 (4 Cephalid, 4 Careful, 4 Breakthrough)
Dredgers- 12 (4 Troll, 4 Stinkweed, 4 Thug)
I only keep at least 3 of the 4 above. Usually its Dredger + discard outlet+ land. I love careful because it can dig for dredgers/land (assuming you have cephalid as your only land)/ 2nd draw spell (breakthrough, cephalid). I never dislike seeing a hand with careful. However I think the deck can use a 13th draw spell instead of the 15th land IMO. What do you think is the best? Brainstorm?
Did anyone see the deck that top 16'ed at the Star City games legacy open? It is crazy stuff. I still prefer more conventional builds, but it's interesting to look at nonetheless. I am guessing he is running that weird manabase to make it more wasteland resistant. Hapless Researcher is a cute discard outlet when you don't have any W producing lands. The SB looks really weird with way too many DR targets. I think overall the list seems really wonky and being more wasteland resistant is the only real plus I can see.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35412
Last edited by LordEvilTeaCup; 10-18-2010 at 12:44 PM.
No breakthrough? Now that heresy. I think 5 coloured is seriously the only way to go. Hapless seems too underpowered to me IMO. I much prefer tribe anyday, T1 tribe and pitching my dredger over the first few turns while blocking is very strong. What about brainstorm? I find playing 1/2 brainstorms along side careful, breakthrough and cephalid coliseum seems plausible.
Yeah the lack of breakthrough is very weird. I was thinking in his weird build FoW could be good sideboard tech with the crazy amount of blue cards he is running... But yeah, I don't think the more secure manabase is worth all the sacrifice.Originally Posted by ivanpei
I really do not think that 5 color land is really needed. Basically i'd run down to three colors. Blue black and white. You need the white for tireless tribe. As far as the green and red, how often do you honesly hard cast a Troll or FKZ. These cards aren't really in here to be casted but for Dread Return.
If you want to go down to 3 colors i think its feasible.
If we drop the 5 Colors Lands, how else are we going to fire off Ancient Grudges or Firestorms without G/R. Without it, there's no way to fight the sideboard hate.
re: 14 land: the Cephalid Coliseums are U: Draw three, discard three that sometimes help you play around Daze. They don't cast Imp, Tribe, Grudge, Ray, or Firestorm, and you want to be careful about assuming that you can lean on them for mana.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
*Adding Nature's Claim and Ray of Revelation to this list*
Really, I can at least see why people would want to run a U/B mana base only (tapping lands for mana doesn't always do 1-3 damage and your lands don't die after the 3rd usage). One can use Underground Sea and other duals who provide all colors you need.
This isn't the case with a 3 colored mana base. You will ALWAYS need at least 2 lands in order to have access to all 3 colors. Also, if your opening hand only provides duals themselves but no Fetchies you will almost always not have access to at least one of the 3 colors.
So either stay with 5 colored (which I would strongly advise) or go UB only.
Also, Frogboy is right. One can't just count 4 Coliseum, 4 Cities, 4 Gemstones, 2 Tarnished as 14 lands, because Coliseum can't cast the majority of spells. So those 14 lands are in practice only 10, which is why most people would play the 15th (11th) land over the 13th draw spell. I would even play it over the 12th Dredger.
While the T16 list has a lot of wacky bits, stifle seems like really good sideboard tech, countering Faerie macabre, artifact hate, and all sorts of other random activated abilities.
It's also castable through cephalid coliseum, but you do need to have a mana open....
Seems to me most opponents just wouldn't expect it out of dredge.
For people running 4 Ancient Grudges in the side:
Do you ever feel like 4 is too much sometimes? Because I've been getting stuck with multiple Ancient Grudges and no targets after I blow up their first piece of hate. Maybe 3 would be better?
No 4 is better. The only reason you blew up their first piece of hate is because you ran 4 grudges and saw one early. I'd rather have extra grudges than not have one at all and stare at the Tormod's Crypt that will ruin my day.
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