You obviously havent even tested Ecthed Champion... he is so cheap. even if he is the only creature on the board he gives you board position so long as you have metalcraft. which isn't even hard to achieve since you run so many artifacts. just slap a cranial plating on this guy and he will win games for you accidentally. as a matter of fact, i'm plannign to bump him up to 4 instead of three jyst to make sure i can draw him.... with arcbound ravager in play, i'd just sac all but 4 artifacts just to be safe, and slap all those +1/+1 counters on him and win the game.
i also took out black all together and my deck isnt even running disciple of vault anymore. i can kill fast and have resilience VS removal with my current build.
Have you ever tested Champion yourself? Maybe against any competitive deck except Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo? Then you would know that against anything but Aggro with spot removal it does NOT do anything for Affinity. Combo and Aggro combo is too fast while Lands based decks and Control builds have colorless creatures to block Champion away and mass removal to destroy it. 3 mana 2/2 cannot be compared to 0 mana 2/2, there is absolutely no way an Affinity build can run less than 4 Frogmites. Frogmites are the main accelerators of the deck, and they have been since mirrodin came out (it even gave the deck its name). Aside from that, Champion competes with Master for the CMC 3 slot and we cannot reallly afford to have more than 4 CMC 3 cards. So it is at best a sideboard option against Aggro decks or a 2-of main option for extremely aggro heavy and combo-light metagames.Originally Posted by affinitypimp
And I know that some people take out their Disciples nowadays because they want to be 'faster'. They say a non-artifact CMC 1 drop is too slow. Well, Disciple is one of the very best cards of this deck. It finishes as many games as Ravager, Master, Plating and the rest of the deck. It punished your opponent for mass removal like Pernicious deed. It is one of the best topdecks in the deck if you have Ravager on the field. For example, Why do people play Galvanic Blast but find Disciple bad? Really, one should not get too fancy about every single card in Scars of Mirrodin and take out the best cards of the deck. Galvanic Blast does 4 damage while Disciple does way more on average and potentially more than 10. I see that Blast can remove creatures, that's why playing both Disciples and Burn spells should be the best solution. Two disciples and Ravager on the field is pretty much GG.
To those of you who mentioned the Vedalken Certarch, I agree wholeheartedly. The fact that it can tap down creatures in the aggro-based match ups and act as a free Rishadan Port in the control ones really pushes the card over the top. The only problem is squeezing all the cards together in the same deck. Sorry I can't be of any help in that department.
Mox Opal just replaces the Drum. I'm not convinced by the need to keep the latter, at least not as more than 2-of.
By the way, how do you all feel about Ravager now ?
Between Metalcraft, MoE and the disparition of stack damage for combat, it seems much weaker to me and I seriously question its place.
From there, I have personally even dumped black entirely and it for a RU-Factory approach, after tinkering with different kind of RUx-non-Factory ones.
Not saying it's perfect but it feels more stable.
And RUG (Goyf+C.Forger) felt anyway better than Ravager/disciple at being brutal.
Ravager can still pump itself to stupid proportions to deal those last bits of damage, largely nullifies spot removal by itself and skewers combat math something fierce. Also, as far as 2cc artifact creatures go it's still about as effective as it gets. It still earns its spot in the deck.
Drum shouldn't be replaced but complemented by Opal. I think Affinity should have 6-7 non-land mana fixers. As Mox is legendary I would go 4 Drum/2 Opal, 3 Drum/3 Opal or 4 Drum/3 Opal. The Drum is simply too good with Memnites and Ornithopters on turn 1, which is why I would never run less than 3.
Well, I don't really understand you. Ravager is the best card in this deck, followed by Cranial Plating and Master. I do not see what the Scars of Mirrodin release should have changed about Ravager's role in the deck... The combat damage changes are annoying but that doesn't mean Ravager is not useful anymore. Don't leave the house without it !
I'm getting tired of explaining how fricking good Disciple is in this deck. Look a few pages back to see what I wrote about that topic before.
Really, man. If you want to cut Ravager and Disciple in Affinity, you should just stop playing that deck.
Master of Etherium + Copy Artifact.
It's actually pretty sick (if you don't draw Master, you can Copy Ravager, Enforcer, or Cranial Plating).
Whether Mox Opal replaces drum or vial depends on the build. In versions that want to play more 2cc and 3cc creatuers (such as Dark Confidant, Etched Champion, and Steel Overseer), you need to keep your vials. If you want to play a more explosive "balls-to-the-wall" version of affinity with more emphasis on free/affinity creatures, you want drums alongside your moxen.
I see more than others do because I know where to look.
Has anybody ever tested the build with Riddlesmith and Glimpse of Nature? I heard that this version can go off in combo fashion, simply killing with Ravager + Disciple that turn. Sounds fun to me.
In the Starcity Games event in Nashville, there was semi coverage of an artifact deck that played glimpse and Erayo. They didn't give a decklist but this is what I've come up with from how they've described it:
4 Tree of Tales
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Glimmervoid
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Den
3 City of Brass
4 Mox Opal
4 Ornithopter
4 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Memnite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Frogmite
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast
Glimpse is interesting, but may ultimately be cute without the net positive mana that elves can generate on their big turn to actually take advantage of the card advantage. Still playing the same list as I posted previously -1 Frogmite +1 Enforcer, which has been kind to me so far (11 free creatures still goes a long way, and the extra beef has been relevant). Shrapnel Blast hasn't come into play much, but when played is usually pretty decisive. nore testing needed before I can blurt anything decisive though.
Jon Holland replied to the article and said this:
- 16 Lands sounds perfect since we have Mox Opal now. Not convinced to run 4 of them, though...Decklist
Ravanger Affinty-Jon Holland
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Master of Etherium
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Arcbound Ravanger
4 Mox Opal
4 Thoughcast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Great Furnace
1 Darksteel Citadel
SB:
4 Blood Moon
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mindbreak Trap
I didn't test before and I wish I had ran 1-2 less land. The games when I flooded were the one's that I lost. I highly recommend the deck. There wasn't a bad matchup all day, just flooded a few times. Any constructive comments would be greatly appreciated.
Jonathan Holland
- Lack of Vial was a good call for the metagame, but I wouldn't drop them against unknown metas.
- Lack of Myr Enforcer makes me a sad panda, but Canonist main with Trap gives me a lot of hope for combo matchups now. Hell, white in general gives us a better combo matchup.
-Chalice rapes this deck, but who runs chalice now? We could drop red to reintroduce green for Krosan Grip.
-Blood Moon? Feels too counterproductive.\
Thoughts?
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"The game is not worth the candle."
I used to run Blood Moon in Extended Affinity. It gave Zoo and Dark Depths variants headaches. However, once players, especially Zoo players, realized what I was doing that stopped getting redundant shocklands just got basics. Still won me the odd match.
In legacy it seems fine in a few matchups. Opals and Drums means that getting it turn two is feasible. It has the potential to shut Zoo out of the game. Assuming you have just one Opal or Drum out means it wouldn't significantly hurt you. How often do you use more then one non-red source in a turn?
Just a random thought, what about serum powder with this list?
Building on John Holland's deck and the recent suggestions in this thread, a couple of things stand out:
- Dark Confidant and Mox Opal are very, very good. Drawing them both in your opening hand with a land and an Orni/Memnite is just stupid.
- As of now, the deck is incredibly fast. It goldfishes on turn 3 almost half the time.
If I had to play the deck tomorrow, I would definitely use this shell:
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Dark Confidant
4 Master of Etherium
4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
4 ***
4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel (or another colored land if that fits the sideboard better)
The four blank spaces can be one of the following: Vedalken Certarch, Thoughtcast, Ethersworn Canonist or Etched Champion. I really like Canonist myself. It beats down, hinders decks that might be faster than you and immediately comes online (unlike Certarch).
Confidant gives you enough card draw to skip Thoughtcast, Etched Champion and Master of Etherium in the same list make the deck too expensive for my liking, and Vedalken Certarch doesn't really fit the strategy. I mean, you don't really want to be casting it in the early game because you have to deploy threats, and in the late game it takes a full turn to come online, which makes it too slow in my opinion.
I played this deck in Block, Standard and Extended until it got banned or rotated out, so I look forward to playing it in Legacy now that it's finally good enough for this format.
Last edited by Secretword; 10-22-2010 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Incomplete decklist
You actually only have a 56 card deck there. You have 4 more flex spots. I'd actually say that Thoughtcast is a staple and should be a 4-of. You are also probably fine with only 3 Mox Opal, leaving you five flex spots.
I see more than others do because I know where to look.
Of course, I forgot Dark Confidant. Edited the decklist.
After playing some more, Berserk also seems a very nice option for those 4 blank spaces. The deck is a balls-to-the-wall aggro deck, so I think it fits the overall strategy a lot better than Thoughtcast.
(and I only draw lands off my Thoughtcasts anyway ;) )
Apparently, that's what he said, too:
Still not convinced by 4 Mox Opal, though. I'm too worried about getting multiples. A part of me still wants to take off the Citadel and a Mox for 2 Enforcers.Match-ups
I had blood moons because I was afraid of zoo and I could attempt to mana screw them. However, I did not play a single zoo deck all day, so they were not helpful. The Moxes were always good because I ALWAYS want 2 mana on the first turn. If I drop a first turn canonist (or cranial plating) it really punishes several decks. (Survival, ANT, Belcher, Goblins, etc.) Also, there were a few times were I had a opal in hand, but I just sacrificed it to ravanger to play another one. This would actually net me an extra mana on some turns. I didn't miss Enforcer at all, he's too expensive. As for the board ,I think I would run some thought seize over blood moon in the board instead. This would help solve the chalice issue somewhat.
The match-ups against the typical decks are great. I played Merfolk, ANT, Counter-top, GW Survival, GU Survival, Hybrid Combo, and reanimator. There wasn't a matchup that I felt was tough. You have so many threats: Master, Disciple, Ravanger, Cranial Plating so blue decks can't counter them all. Also, you put so much pressure against combo decks that they try to combo off too early and whiff more often. There were several games were I would swing for 7+ damage on turn 2. I feel the deck is very underrated and will soon be a strong contender in the metagame.
Also, I'm digging the Confidant addition. Our mana-fixing is ridiculous now.
Does Etched Champion help with any matchups? I don't think it does. It doesn't really improve our Zoo matchup.Thoughts?
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"The game is not worth the candle."
I am a Type 1 Player that is just getting into legacy because no one plays Type 1 where I live anymore.... I just made an account today so I could contribute to this thread. I chose to put together an Affinity deck because I think it's a lot of fun to play especially with the new scars cards. Here are a couple thoughts I have after testing this deck.
Seriously consider running 4 mox opals in this deck. If your build is running Ravager and or Shrapnel Blast I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to run this card as a 4 of. You will want to see this card early in every game and running 4 is the best way to do so. With Ravager, the legendary status is hardly a noticeable drawback. I can't imagine running less than 4 of this card.
Also seriously consider Etched Champion. With cranial playing he will win you games. I run him as a 2 of and am going to consider keeping 1 or 2 more in the board as against certain decks he is the bomb. Merfolk has a particularly hard time dealing with him. With 4 mox opal in the deck he is pretty easy to get out on turn 2.
Dark Confidant is also really good. Though Running Confidant and Disciple means you have 8 non-artifact creatures in the deck which is a lot. Between those two creatures I'm not sure yet who is better, or if you should run both. What are others' opinion on Confidant vs. Disciple of the Vault?
Confidant replaces Thoughtcast, so you shouldn't have to choose.
This list is getting pretty tight right now. I'm don't like the idea of having multiple Moxes with no sac outlet in hand.
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"The game is not worth the candle."
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